Rating system overhaul

[binaryme]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd like to add my own thoughts as someone who has just uploaded their first mod:

 

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25938

 

This rings so true for me:

 

"The vast majority of the time that the staff and Dark0ne have spent here has been dealing with those that are unable to comprehend the most basic of things, be nice to the other members of the community. Basically treating each other with dignity and respect."

 

I spent a lot of my own personal time working on a mod to try and give something back to the community in return for all the great mods I've downloaded myself. The first comment I received was:

 

"Man. Awful. She looks awful."

 

Now regardless of whether she does or not, that's a really nasty way to respond to the efforts I've made. It left me with a really bad taste in my mouth, and forced me to disable comments and endorsements for the file, as it was the only way I felt I could leave my work up.

 

Where am I going with this?

 

I'm pretty sure you guys have your hands full as it is trying to weed out those incapable of showing manners and respect, so I doubt there's much that can be improved with the comments sections.

 

What I would suggest is totally removing the negative endorsements though. I know they don't affect rankings, but as things stand they are still available as a tool for those wanting to be petty and spiteful.

 

Even beyond that, negative endorsements are limited by the competence of the downloader. You could end up with a high quality mod with a bunch of 'thumbs down' due to people not following instructions correctly. Possibly as they aren't 'the sharpest tool in the box', or maybe for more legitimate reasons, such as language differences.

 

As far as I can see, the only valid reason for allowing negative endorsements is for files that don't work as stated. You've already got this covered with 'Report this file' though.

 

Anyway, that's my two... erm, ninety-nine cents...

[crashpilot]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd like to add my own thoughts as someone who has just uploaded their first mod:

 

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25938

 

This rings so true for me:

 

"The vast majority of the time that the staff and Dark0ne have spent here has been dealing with those that are unable to comprehend the most basic of things, be nice to the other members of the community. Basically treating each other with dignity and respect."

 

I spent a lot of my own personal time working on a mod to try and give something back to the community in return for all the great mods I've downloaded myself. The first comment I received was:

 

"Man. Awful. She looks awful."

 

Now regardless of whether she does or not, that's a really nasty way to respond to the efforts I've made. It left me with a really bad taste in my mouth, and forced me to disable comments and endorsements for the file, as it was the only way I felt I could leave my work up.

 

Where am I going with this?

 

I'm pretty sure you guys have your hands full as it is trying to weed out those incapable of showing manners and respect, so I doubt there's much that can be improved with the comments sections.

 

What I would suggest is totally removing the negative endorsements though. I know they don't affect rankings, but as things stand they are still available as a tool for those wanting to be petty and spiteful.

 

Even beyond that, negative endorsements are limited by the competence of the downloader. You could end up with a high quality mod with a bunch of 'thumbs down' due to people not following instructions correctly. Possibly as they aren't 'the sharpest tool in the box', or maybe for more legitimate reasons, such as language differences.

 

As far as I can see, the only valid reason for allowing negative endorsements is for files that don't work as stated. You've already got this covered with 'Report this file' though.

 

Anyway, that's my two... erm, ninety-nine cents...

 

Thank you; this is exactly what I proposed some time ago.

If a MOD has bugs send a comment to the author, no need to downgrade the MOD since in 9 out of 10 the author will resolve the issue, if not positive ratings can be removed.

If one does not like a MOD, no need to downgrade, just move on, the MOD is not for you.

If one likes a MOD and it works as described (after testing), endorse.

[new61]

First of all, I would like to say; I love the new system, but I think negative endorsements should work like this:

 

If someone wants to not endorse a file he/she would have to give a explanation that is required to be longer then X characters (maybe 50) to be able to submit their negative endorsement.

 

The reason why I don't like the current system is that when ever I look at a mod I am interested in, I want to know HOW this mod conflicted with another mod and WHY it didn't meet someone's high quality standards and WHAT (animations, textures, etc.) were missing. For me this is very important because I am often deciding between multiple mods that do the same kind of thing (Damage adjusting mods for example). I don't want to have to dig through the comments just to find why different people like X mod better then Y mod because of Z reasons or they loved A mod for B reasons. (try to understand my logic language)

 

Another reason I would like to add comments to my negative endorsements, is because I want to tell a modder what they did wrong so he/she isn't left in the dust not knowing why their mod didn't meet new61's quality standards. At the moment, I am having to PM the people who I gave negative rankings to, so I can give reasons and explanations for why I didn't like their mod. I am additionally sending messages to the people who did not endorse files - asking them what caused them to give it a thumbs down.

 

For the people who are reading this and think, "why doesn't new61 just download the mod and try it out himself". The answer to that question is:

 

I live out in the boonies with a dial-up connection and downloading takes a long time - plus it ties up the phone line and my parents don't like that. Also, all of the mods on this site don't allow you to pause the download without having to download it all over again (at least in my experience).

 

 

 

Here are my ideas clearly laid out:

 

1. Allow someone who does not endorse a file to attach a comment to their non endorsement.

 

2. Allow the author/uploader of the mod to delete negative endorsements that he/she finds inappropriate or irrelevant.

 

4. Allow the author/uploader of the mod to add his own replies to negative endorsement comments by adding his/her own counters or acknowledgments in a different color included at the bottom of the users comment which could be seen when someone clicks on the "thumbs down" tab.

 

The same could be done with the "thumbs up" endorsements. It would read like this:

 

................................................................

 

Endorsement feedback for New61's Mod.

 

appleman225 for file version 2.0

 

(view comment)

 

 

*click*

 

 

I have not given this file my endorsement because there are HUGE red exclamation marks everywhere!

 

 

This is due to missing meshes. Double check that you placed the meshes in the correct folder and that you have archiveinvalidation installed.

 

..........................................................

 

Endorsement feedback for New61's Mod.

 

rocketcar1 for file version 2.0

 

(view comment)

 

 

*click*

 

 

I have not given this file my endorsement because this mod makes Fawks turn hostile toward me.

 

 

This will be fixed in the next version. Please download version 3.0 when it is uploaded. Thank you for the for the constructive feedback.

 

.............................................................

 

Endorsements for New61's Mod.

 

cooldude for file version 2.0

 

(view comment)

 

*click*

 

This is a awesome mod. It definitely increases immersion.

 

Thanks cooldude. I appreciate that you are enjoying my mod.

 

............................................................

[Boreg]

I thing the old problem was that a rating of 10 possible points has no relation between the user and the Quality

So often a Real good Mod with many little Errors intend me to give a 8, but a very awfull mod without errors intend me the same, there was the problem i thing.

 

Now you can only "endorse this file" ok

 

or "I won't endorse this file, here's why..." with the piczure of thumbs down ?

 

its bether but now I often didn´t give a rate because, i dont want to endorse because of errors ,

"and wont endorse " was to hard.

 

My suggestion is.

 

make 3 Different points.

Gamefeeling: Do you like to play this mod, Make it fun for you. Yes(3P)/Mostly(2P)/No(1P)

 

Handwork quality: Is the mod good worked, (for example:have items pipboy Pictures) Yes(3P)/Mostly(2P)/No(1P)

 

Did the mod What it says: (this is the base of the old rate system) Yes(3P)/Mostly(2P)/No(1P)

 

and last but not least, a spezial point.

I use this mod in future by my self. (1P)

 

So you got your 10 Point System back , but more Detailed

and no Modder should be angry if a user says, "i dont like this mod", because this is a personally taste.

And theres possible to rate from 3 to Ten

and i thing a mod with a lower rate as a 3 is a virus infektet empty exe :)

 

Sorry for syntax i am german :)

 

 

EDIT: :whistling:

 

 

My suggest

 

http://www.bilder-space.de/thumb/23.077V2aGJghRpxgzsD.JPG

[binaryme]

Having thought about it a bit more, to add to my last post...

 

I think having the file endorsement system work pretty much like the member kudos system would work great.

 

You can give an endorsement or take it away. So you effectively have a system that can go from neutral to positive, and even change over time if the file significantly changes. You don't have a negative, which is open to abuse though.

 

I'd guess something like this would be easy to implement without too much work?

 

Edit: Doh! I just found out that you can already remove your endorsements (I never had the need to try it before). This would make it even easier then, just remove the 'thumbs down' option.

Edited July 23, 2009 by binaryme

[theobling]

Suddenly, Oblivion modding became a much more civilized, precise, and enjoyable act. Thank you for your unending support and resourcefulness!

[Supercontra39]

I'm generally not a fan of some of the aspects of the system:

 

-Ratings are too black and white

 

-It seems that all the stuff you were telling people not to rate down because of are now built-in, valid reasons ("I couldn't read the install instructions")

 

-Thumbs down do nothing to help the author improve the file, they're just discouraging, it's just "THIS IS BAD", you should force people to write 100 words on why they didn't like it, not just "IT'S BUGGY"

 

This is left over from the old system:

-If someone rates someone down in the beta/alpha stages of the file there's absolutely no guarantee that the person will fix the rating even if the author fixes every single bug, I think that the person who gave someone a thumbs-down should be forced to re-download and re-rate in 1-2 months but only if the author has released several new patches, if he doesn't do anything in 2 months the rating will go disappear, he can just refresh his rating though. If this were implemented authors would probably release more patches, that way thumbs-down motivate authors instead of demotivating them.

[LHammonds]

-Ratings are too black and white

Exact same complaint about the system before the change.

 

-It seems that all the stuff you were telling people not to rate down because of are now built-in, valid reasons ("I couldn't read the install instructions")

If you have not noticed, it is not a "rate down" anymore. These do not count against the mod in the other report listings. People will vote or comment on invalid reasons regardless of how you structure the system but now the author (and everyone else) can see it for what it is and ignore it. The person that is upset about the mod (for whatever reason) is less likely to say something stupid in the heat of the moment that can get them banned and keeps the author somewhat protected from abusive behavior.

 

-Thumbs down do nothing to help the author improve the file, they're just discouraging, it's just "THIS IS BAD", you should force people to write 100 words on why they didn't like it, not just "IT'S BUGGY"

For every 20 "less-than-perfect votes" there was usually only one that gave sufficient information to help the author improve the mod. That person will be communicating those issues via the comment system...maybe in addition to the "thumbs down"

 

This is left over from the old system:

-If someone rates someone down in the beta/alpha stages of the file there's absolutely no guarantee that the person will fix the rating even if the author fixes every single bug, I think that the person who gave someone a thumbs-down should be forced to re-download and re-rate in 1-2 months but only if the author has released several new patches, if he doesn't do anything in 2 months the rating will go disappear, he can just refresh his rating though. If this were implemented authors would probably release more patches, that way thumbs-down motivate authors instead of demotivating them.

Ok, tell me why an author that is "so" guarded about ratings would upload his final product in the exact same page that hosted the alpha and betas? If the author wanted his votes and comments to reflect only the final (1.0) version, then s/he should realize that the mod should be uploaded to a new page. This is a moot point. As for patches that fix problems with a 1.0 release or introduce new features, the author has the same option to create a new page or update the existing one. Every author that makes updates usually keeps their files on the same page and it is understood that a long-running history of a mod will include votes on prior versions. A discerning individual can check the "Actions" tab and see when updates were made verses when votes were cast. Again, this is entirely up to the author but most authors do not care that much and choose to keep their mods on the same page so people can find them easily in the future...especially if that URL is retained in readme files and OMOD links.

 

LHammonds

[binaryme]

"If you have not noticed, it is not a "rate down" anymore. These do not count against the mod in the other report listings. People will vote or comment on invalid reasons regardless of how you structure the system but now the author (and everyone else) can see it for what it is and ignore it."

 

While I can see your point, I have to say that whether it affects listings or not, having a thumbs down available for a piece of work someone may have spent many hours of their life creating to provide to others for free just isn't needed.

 

Sure, some modders will ignore unfair negative feedback, and recognise it for what it is. Others, especially new modders like myself, will think "Why subject myself to this?" and at best disable all forms of positive feedback for the file to prevent trolling. At worst they'll not contribute anything further to the site.

 

As I said in an earlier post, there really is no need for negative feedback options. Have a neutral to positive system for voting, and have a system for reporting mods that don't work, or contain content infringing on the site rules. Everything else is subjective to personal opinion and the ability of mod users to follow instructions.

[binaryme]

Just to expand on my last point. The way the site works now for uploaders is that you have to have comments enabled to allow endorsements - or at least that's the way it worked for me when I tried to have endorsements but no commenting.

 

The only alternative is disable both, preventing your work from being rated.

 

What's needed is a middle ground. Allow commenting and negative voting to be turned off, but positive voting to remain. The mod will still be represented fairly in the listings from positive feedback, and the mod creators can protect themselves from trolling.

Edited July 28, 2009 by binaryme