Why I Think The Empire Is Right

[madcow12]

 

Reason 1- Yeah totally fair blaming a person that's getting executed alongside you for you being executed.

Reason 2- The imperial characters treat the more traditional nords like they're animals, as if they have lesser brain functions and are second class citizens. The Empire is a tyranny and deserves to be overthrown.

Reason 3- The thalmor are manipulating the whole thing to try and get both sides weakened. The war has already gone on long enough for the Legion to be properly weakened, so the best choice is to support the Stormcloaks' victory as that is the one outcome the Thalmor want to avoid at all costs. Because they don't want a significant part of the world controlled by people they don't have in their pockets.

Reason 4- Ruse you say? I could say the same for their visage of fairness and proper governance, If you do the quest given to you by Fralia Graymane in Whiterun you'll see that General Tullius collaborated with the Thalmor to capture her son in order to keep her family down (because they are big voices for Talos worship in Whiterun), The note you find written by tullius to the Battleborns in Whiterun confirms his complete support of the abuse and torment of groups of people they claim to be citizens of the Empire. Two-faced bastards, they claim that skyrim belongs to the Empire and that all are citizens of the empire yet they have the audacity to help a foreign state oppress the people and kill off a major part of the population. The empire has had plenty of time to strike back but they maintain the comfortable peace they have being the thalmor's dogs by the suffering of other states. Morrowind was abandoned by them during the oblivion crisis and left to fend for themselves, skyrim's Talos worshipping population is sacrificed to appease their thalmor masters, Hammerfall has already become independent and are fending off the Thalmor perfectly fine. The empire is a joke, they claim to be protectors yet they do nothing when people actually need protection.

Reason 5- Covered by other people, but Ulfric challenged the king to a duel and the king lost, simple as that he didn't sneak attack, or use poison, or anything Ulfric was just the better man.

Reason 6- So because you weren't born in this country you should help a tyrannical empire and their Thalmor masters persecute and oppress it right? Not really a legitimate reason.

Reason 7- Always part of the games true...but the next game doesn't have to involve skyrim you could still be in the Empire or it could still be mentioned but it doesn't mean the Empire will eventually win. Hell as the ages move on things change, the dragons have never been part of the games before this, the empire would probably be nothing but a memory by ES7.

Counter points to your counter points:

1. You are completely correct; it's not Ulfiric's Fault you were sent to the chopping block, it's the dragonborn's fault for crossing the border illegally and the fault of a Imperial Officer with a chip on her shoulder.
2. You mean everyone treats Nords like this, right? It's the stereotype and nothing unique. Orcs weren't even considered sentient beings until the Daggerfall, they were assumed to be an offshoot of Goblins(roughly).
3. Spoken like a True Blade, friend. While it's true that the Thalmor are the true enemy in Skyrim, even General Tullius wants to give them the Karmic Death they have earned, and after you complete the War questline you get more proof of this; for the Empire he has his sights set on them now, for the Stormcloaks he admits if they hadn't been involved this could have ended peacefully.
4. Hardly fair to speak ill of the empire for fulfilling their end of a bargain made to end a war. They Thalmor get to do that EVERYWHERE, and they do that to more then just Talos worshipers. Basically if you speak ill of them, you may just vanish. Malborn's Family vanished as well, Bosmer, and if the Thalmor are truly starting up the Aldmeri Dominion again, then why are they killing their allies in secret?
5. Everyone has said the same bloody thing as you here, even in support of the Empire. Point five on the list wasn't fair and the OP admits it.
6. By your logic then no Nord's born in Skyrim would have any reason to support Ulfric. And the Empire hates the Thalmor as well. Hell, it wasn't until the Stormcloaks had their "fun" that Skyrim had a strong Imperial presence, and not until then that the crackdown on Talos hit Skyrim. If Ulfric had never dueled the high king, and killed him, all those "True Sons of Skyrim" would be free to worship Talos still in peace.
7. You know something we don't? Seeing as these games are part of a Living world, we have no way of knowing who wins this war, what the results of it are beyond Skyrim, and how long it takes for the Dragon's to be beaten again, if ever. And don't kid yourself, Dragons have been a part of games before this; Daggerfall has one as an aide to a member of a Royal Family, though he is out of the way and mentioned only once or twice. In Redguard you have to kill one to progress to the final boss. But you're right. we have no way of knowing if the Empire will still exist by TES7. But trust me, it takes an army of equal strength to grind a war to a standstill, and it takes more to win one. And the Great War never truly ended, my friend, and when it starts again, will the Stormcloaks be there to stop it? Or will they be crushed like ants against a flood of Bosmer, Thalmor, Khajiit, and god knows who else? Here's a hint: That's at least three times the amount of troops the Stormcloaks will have, and if the Empire is gone, then they own that as well, so that's 4 times, if the Dunmer join up, 5 times, Bretons, 6, Orsimer, 7, Argonians, 8... You see the problem?

In closing, the Empire may not be faultless, but they want what's best for Tamriel, not just themselves. The Thalmor want what's best for them, and the Stormcloaks want what's best for them. Everyone wants what's best for them, but the Empire still has to look at the big picture, seeing as the Empire is called this since it(used to, anyway) rule all of Tamriel with a fair but tempered hand. Is it doing this now? No, because they lost enough support from the other parts of the Empire. They lost MOST of the empire to the Thalmor.

 

 

I really have to agree with you, especially #7. in diplomacy, you can't outright ignore a treaty you just signed. you have to at least feign it. and thats what the empire did, the great war really shocked the empire, and they even lost cyrodiil at some point, but with the nord legion from skyrim they won it back, which i believe shows the empire's still got quite a punch left. but they took too much in the intial outset, with all the blades dead and whatnot, and so a strategic retreat, give ground to gain ground. honestly, even with the ban, we have heimsker preaching talos all day in whiterun and no one lifts a finger. not even the guards. he's there all day long. yea, the thalmor in their zeal to downgrade that man who walks as god with mer may scour the land and torture actual and potential talos believers, but thats just them. the empire also may do some similar acts, but it's all kept to minimum just enough to satisfy the treaty enforcers.

 

also like #7, say skyrim wins and secedes from the empire. the war will have its residents bitter with the thalmor AND the empire, which means if the thalmor were to initiate an attack on mankind again, the empire would rather use the divided forces to push into morrowind rather then help skyrim defend. even if they were to create a common front, it would be uneasy at best. the nords would be suspicious the legion will try to take back skyrim at the first chance, while the imperials won't trust the rebels, which even more weakens mankind strength as it is, which means thalmor can divide and conquer. and really, just playing the game and really listening to those dialogues shows ulfric is in this for personal want as much as thalmor hatred. last of all, while the empire did give up hammerfell, elsewyr and such they're gonna need them back to gain some upper hand over the thalmor. yea they could let skyrim be independent, still make an alliance, but other races wouldn't take that very nicely. alliance with an ally that has a racist as an ally to risk multitudes of death? better to just stay put and peacefully under the thalmor!

[LeddBate]

Heimsker. Woah. If there was any reason I'd agree with the Thalmor... There are so many mini-mods devoted to killing/shutting up Heimsker.

 

Seriously though. Heimsker gets away with his public sermoning because Whiterun is the "border" city (even if "officially" it belongs to the Empire.) My guess is that the Thalmor don't want to make a martyr out of Heimsker and that's why he gets away with preaching all day long. You tried that crap in any city West of Whiterun and you would disappear real fast.

 

The Empire is right, from their perspective. So are the Stormcloaks, from theirs.

 

The Empire is doing what it feels is necessary so that it can rebuild from the great war. The Stormcloaks have had enough. If there is one thing that they share in common with Hammerfell, it is that they now believe they have to stand on their own.

 

The Thalmor are playing a "both ends against the middle" strategy, -trying to weaken both the Empire and Skyrim. I'm hoping that the next TES will deal with the fallout of this. I would love to be in the center of the next great war.

Edited February 17, 2014 by LeddBate

[Yagamoth]

 

 

Reason 1- Yeah totally fair blaming a person that's getting executed alongside you for you being executed.

Reason 2- The imperial characters treat the more traditional nords like they're animals, as if they have lesser brain functions and are second class citizens. The Empire is a tyranny and deserves to be overthrown.

Reason 3- The thalmor are manipulating the whole thing to try and get both sides weakened. The war has already gone on long enough for the Legion to be properly weakened, so the best choice is to support the Stormcloaks' victory as that is the one outcome the Thalmor want to avoid at all costs. Because they don't want a significant part of the world controlled by people they don't have in their pockets.

Reason 4- Ruse you say? I could say the same for their visage of fairness and proper governance, If you do the quest given to you by Fralia Graymane in Whiterun you'll see that General Tullius collaborated with the Thalmor to capture her son in order to keep her family down (because they are big voices for Talos worship in Whiterun), The note you find written by tullius to the Battleborns in Whiterun confirms his complete support of the abuse and torment of groups of people they claim to be citizens of the Empire. Two-faced bastards, they claim that skyrim belongs to the Empire and that all are citizens of the empire yet they have the audacity to help a foreign state oppress the people and kill off a major part of the population. The empire has had plenty of time to strike back but they maintain the comfortable peace they have being the thalmor's dogs by the suffering of other states. Morrowind was abandoned by them during the oblivion crisis and left to fend for themselves, skyrim's Talos worshipping population is sacrificed to appease their thalmor masters, Hammerfall has already become independent and are fending off the Thalmor perfectly fine. The empire is a joke, they claim to be protectors yet they do nothing when people actually need protection.

Reason 5- Covered by other people, but Ulfric challenged the king to a duel and the king lost, simple as that he didn't sneak attack, or use poison, or anything Ulfric was just the better man.

Reason 6- So because you weren't born in this country you should help a tyrannical empire and their Thalmor masters persecute and oppress it right? Not really a legitimate reason.

Reason 7- Always part of the games true...but the next game doesn't have to involve skyrim you could still be in the Empire or it could still be mentioned but it doesn't mean the Empire will eventually win. Hell as the ages move on things change, the dragons have never been part of the games before this, the empire would probably be nothing but a memory by ES7.

Counter points to your counter points:

1. You are completely correct; it's not Ulfiric's Fault you were sent to the chopping block, it's the dragonborn's fault for crossing the border illegally and the fault of a Imperial Officer with a chip on her shoulder.
2. You mean everyone treats Nords like this, right? It's the stereotype and nothing unique. Orcs weren't even considered sentient beings until the Daggerfall, they were assumed to be an offshoot of Goblins(roughly).
3. Spoken like a True Blade, friend. While it's true that the Thalmor are the true enemy in Skyrim, even General Tullius wants to give them the Karmic Death they have earned, and after you complete the War questline you get more proof of this; for the Empire he has his sights set on them now, for the Stormcloaks he admits if they hadn't been involved this could have ended peacefully.
4. Hardly fair to speak ill of the empire for fulfilling their end of a bargain made to end a war. They Thalmor get to do that EVERYWHERE, and they do that to more then just Talos worshipers. Basically if you speak ill of them, you may just vanish. Malborn's Family vanished as well, Bosmer, and if the Thalmor are truly starting up the Aldmeri Dominion again, then why are they killing their allies in secret?
5. Everyone has said the same bloody thing as you here, even in support of the Empire. Point five on the list wasn't fair and the OP admits it.
6. By your logic then no Nord's born in Skyrim would have any reason to support Ulfric. And the Empire hates the Thalmor as well. Hell, it wasn't until the Stormcloaks had their "fun" that Skyrim had a strong Imperial presence, and not until then that the crackdown on Talos hit Skyrim. If Ulfric had never dueled the high king, and killed him, all those "True Sons of Skyrim" would be free to worship Talos still in peace.
7. You know something we don't? Seeing as these games are part of a Living world, we have no way of knowing who wins this war, what the results of it are beyond Skyrim, and how long it takes for the Dragon's to be beaten again, if ever. And don't kid yourself, Dragons have been a part of games before this; Daggerfall has one as an aide to a member of a Royal Family, though he is out of the way and mentioned only once or twice. In Redguard you have to kill one to progress to the final boss. But you're right. we have no way of knowing if the Empire will still exist by TES7. But trust me, it takes an army of equal strength to grind a war to a standstill, and it takes more to win one. And the Great War never truly ended, my friend, and when it starts again, will the Stormcloaks be there to stop it? Or will they be crushed like ants against a flood of Bosmer, Thalmor, Khajiit, and god knows who else? Here's a hint: That's at least three times the amount of troops the Stormcloaks will have, and if the Empire is gone, then they own that as well, so that's 4 times, if the Dunmer join up, 5 times, Bretons, 6, Orsimer, 7, Argonians, 8... You see the problem?

In closing, the Empire may not be faultless, but they want what's best for Tamriel, not just themselves. The Thalmor want what's best for them, and the Stormcloaks want what's best for them. Everyone wants what's best for them, but the Empire still has to look at the big picture, seeing as the Empire is called this since it(used to, anyway) rule all of Tamriel with a fair but tempered hand. Is it doing this now? No, because they lost enough support from the other parts of the Empire. They lost MOST of the empire to the Thalmor.

 

 

I really have to agree with you, especially #7. in diplomacy, you can't outright ignore a treaty you just signed. you have to at least feign it. and thats what the empire did, the great war really shocked the empire, and they even lost cyrodiil at some point, but with the nord legion from skyrim they won it back, which i believe shows the empire's still got quite a punch left. but they took too much in the intial outset, with all the blades dead and whatnot, and so a strategic retreat, give ground to gain ground. honestly, even with the ban, we have heimsker preaching talos all day in whiterun and no one lifts a finger. not even the guards. he's there all day long. yea, the thalmor in their zeal to downgrade that man who walks as god with mer may scour the land and torture actual and potential talos believers, but thats just them. the empire also may do some similar acts, but it's all kept to minimum just enough to satisfy the treaty enforcers.

 

also like #7, say skyrim wins and secedes from the empire. the war will have its residents bitter with the thalmor AND the empire, which means if the thalmor were to initiate an attack on mankind again, the empire would rather use the divided forces to push into morrowind rather then help skyrim defend. even if they were to create a common front, it would be uneasy at best. the nords would be suspicious the legion will try to take back skyrim at the first chance, while the imperials won't trust the rebels, which even more weakens mankind strength as it is, which means thalmor can divide and conquer. and really, just playing the game and really listening to those dialogues shows ulfric is in this for personal want as much as thalmor hatred. last of all, while the empire did give up hammerfell, elsewyr and such they're gonna need them back to gain some upper hand over the thalmor. yea they could let skyrim be independent, still make an alliance, but other races wouldn't take that very nicely. alliance with an ally that has a racist as an ally to risk multitudes of death? better to just stay put and peacefully under the thalmor!

 

 

I would counter the argument made in point 7 with the existence of the Ebonheart pact during the second era. You had three races who at best strongly disliked (Nords and Dunmer) to outright hated each other (Dunmer and Argonians) band together and form a fragile yet workable peace to counteract a common foe. Hammerfall may not like the Empire but do you truly believe the Redguards and Nords would simply sit by and wait for the Thalmor to come to them if they started another war. In my opinion the more likely outcome is that most if not all of the independent factions would join the Empire in fighting the Thalmor. Again using the Ebonheart pact as an example the two sides do not necessarily have to like each other to work together in harmony. At the very least should the Thalmor restart the war you would have Skyrim, Cyrodil, High Rock, and Hammerfall fighting against them. The Orcs would be an interesting question but they historically have a strong connection to the Imperial Legion.

 

Furthermore I sincerely doubt the Empire would try to push into Morrowind as that would be the absolute dumbest action they could take. That would basically be giving a presently neutral faction every reason in the world to join with the Dominion in killing them. Additionally consider the fact that the Altmer proposed the White Gold Concordat because either (a) they became unsure of their ability to win or (b) The price of victory would have devestated them and left them open to attack from other forces. It is well established in lore that the Altmer (not sure about bosmer) have a significantly lower birth rate than men. Not to mention the Thalmors pension for practicing eugenics. Simply put the Dominion cannot afford to wait more than half a century at most before resuming the war, otherwise the races of men can simply outbreed them and flood the field with soldiers. My guess would be that even 27 years after the war the races of men, population wise, have recovered far better than their Dominion counterparts. As long as the Civil War in Skyrim ends the victor is not really that important.

 

If you read the Dossiers during the main quest this becomes apparent from the fact that they specifically say the civil war should continue without either side winning. The Thalmor view a Stormcloak victory equally bad to an Imperial victory. On a final note you might want to read the "Ulfric may not be a racist" thread for some interesting insights into Ulfric's apparent racism.

[Deleted3989288User]

Ulfric was training to be a greybeard but left high hrothgar for the war. The greybeards only use the voice to worship Kynareth, but Ulfric used it to kill the high king, something Jurgen Windcaller and the Greybeards would hate. The dragonborn is different since his destiny is to destroy Alduin..

Galmar is a thug.

The real enemy is the thalmor, so this war is stupid.

I like Balgruuf and I am sentimental to whiterun, and I like him to stay in power. There are some bad Imperial Jarls though but bad Stormcloak Jarls too.

 

However, my character is a Nord and refuses to let the Thalmor take prisoners. He doesn't tolerate any Thalmor. He can't take to kill other Nords with the stormcloaks....He is neutral at the moment....

Edited February 23, 2014 by Guest

[GetTheJojDone]

Here's a funny little story - one time after I got my orders from Legate Rikke in the Pale Imperial Camp to take Fort Dunstad, I ran into a group of Thalmor as I was leaving the camp, and got into a fight with them. And guess what? Not only did none of the Imperial soldiers at the camp lift a finger to help the Thalmor, they actually helped me kill them. The whole camp jumped in on my side, even Legate Rikke.

 

So there goes the Stormcloak pretence that the Imperials are Thalmor puppets.

[Deleted3989288User]

So, my deciding factor is the ruling jarls at the end of the war.

Solitude - Elislif
means well, but weak. Loves luxury and imperial coin. No other choice anyways.

Markarth
Igmund - Means well but imperial puppet. His father lied to the nord militia and double crossed them for the thalmor.
Thongvar Silver-Blood - That family is corrupt and ruthless.

Winner: Igmund by slight edge


Falkreath
Siddgeir - Terrible Jarl and an insufferable brat
Dengeir - Paranoid, old, but means well

Winner - Dengeir

Morthal
Igrod - Estranged, but means well for her people

Sorli the Builder - a commoner, but seems to mean well but no experience

Winner Igrod

Whiterun

Balgruuf - I think the best Jarl in the game, wise and considerate
Vignar - Old but honorable

Winner - slight edge Balgruuf

Dawnstar

Skald - Insufferable Brat

Brina Merilis - Not a Nord, but a good Jarl

Winner - Brina Merilis

Winterhold
Korir - Prejudiced against Wizards, but seems like a good Jarl

Kraldar - Seems like a good Jarl

Winner - Wash

Windhelm
Jarl Ulfric - too much to say depending on who you ask

Brunwulf Free-Winter - Helps the elfs and Argonians and is wise and considerate

Winner - Wash, the side you pick is the right choice for jarl because they reflect your beliefs.

Riften
Laila Law-giver - Means well, but very weak and clueless about the corruption in her city

Maven Black Briar - Corrupt, unscrupulous, but strong. Arguably she's always been in charge anyways.

Winner - Wash

Which side has the better Jarls?

[GetTheJojDone]

 

So, my deciding factor is the ruling jarls at the end of the war.

Solitude - Elislif

means well, but weak. Loves luxury and imperial coin. No other choice anyways.

 

Markarth

Igmund - Means well but imperial puppet. His father lied to the nord militia and double crossed them for the thalmor.

Thongvar Silver-Blood - That family is corrupt and ruthless.

 

Winner: Igmund by slight edge

 

 

Falkreath

Siddgeir - Terrible Jarl and an insufferable brat

Dengeir - Paranoid, old, but means well

 

Winner - Dengeir

 

Morthal

Igrod - Estranged, but means well for her people

Sorli the Builder - a commoner, but seems to mean well but no experience

 

Winner Igrod

 

Whiterun

Balgruuf - I think the best Jarl in the game, wise and considerate

Vignar - Old but honorable

 

Winner - slight edge Balgruuf

Dawnstar

Skald - Insufferable Brat

Brina Merilis - Not a Nord, but a good Jarl

Winner - Brina Merilis

Winterhold

Korir - Prejudiced against Wizards, but seems like a good Jarl

Kraldar - Seems like a good Jarl

 

Winner - Wash

Windhelm

Jarl Ulfric - too much to say depending on who you ask

Brunwulf Free-Winter - Helps the elfs and Argonians and is wise and considerate

 

Winner - Wash, the side you pick is the right choice for jarl because they reflect your beliefs.

Riften

Laila Law-giver - Means well, but very weak and clueless about the corruption in her city

Maven Black Briar - Corrupt, unscrupulous, but strong. Arguably she's always been in charge anyways.

Winner - Wash

Which side has the better Jarls?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A few corrections: Brina Merilis actually is a Nord, I thought she was an Imperial myself at first. Sorli the Builder doesn't mean well at all - she's just using her position as Jarl of Hjaalmarch as a springboard for gaining more power and becoming Jarl of a more prosperous hold, like The Rift, she says so herself. Korir isn't a good Jarl either, he's miserable, he hates elves as well as mages, hates anyone who doesn't agree with him or condemn elves and mages with the same zeal as he does, he sits there and bemoans what has happened to Winterhold but never actually tries to do anything about it, and generally condemns the College, the last hope for Winterhold as the cause of the Great Collapse without proof. Igmund's father, Hrolfdir didn't lie to Ulfric about legalising Talos worship, he legalised it in the hope the Thalmor wouldn't find out, but they did, and exiled him and his family again and threatened him with war unless he recanted, which he had little choice but to do. Elisif doesn't care about money or luxury, at least no more than any other Jarl does, and I've seen no proof otherwise, except Ulfric's hyperbolic speeches. Finally, if you're going to mention "imperial puppet" as a negative point, you might as well mention "Ulfric's puppet" as a negative as well, it's only fair.

Edited February 23, 2014 by GetTheJojDone

[Deleted3989288User]

Good points.

 

Seems except for Siddgeir, the imperials have the better Jarls.

 

Maven Black Briar is a *censored* that gets away with everything and openly supports the Thalmor. However Laila is a weak and clueless jarl beyond help. No winner there.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Guest

[MODinsane]

We have a game here, that is all it is ... a game. Avoid going into the racism crapola and get back to the fact this is all a game. Some of you out there need to get out more often, when it becomes so enthralling for the injection of assumptions into a fantasy game cause people to start getting too overly immersed.

 

Just play the game and dispense with the entering of PC into a game.

[Yagamoth]

If Skyrim was built like Morrowind the Imperials would of had perfect Jarls. After all I would have actually been able to kill Siddgeir and Maven. I cannot tell you how much I wish the game would just let me kill the Black Briar family, with the exception of the daughter.