Russia and the Ukraine

[rizon72]

Like many things, this issue is immensely complex. Sadly its too easy for us to bend truths to fit our view of the world.

 

I still see the USA as damned if they do something, and damned if they don't. A no-win situation, which brings up the question, which one has the least amount of damage to the future. Its almost impossible to tell.

[Harbringe]

Here's our bogeyman (so they say) , for those who bother to listen to it I think you will be surprised. I know I was.

 

 

 

 

Now agree or disagree with his take on things is your decision but what really struck me about this was the contrast between this and what we have been getting in the West . Here we are in a moment of historical gravitas and in the West we get these heavily scripted news events where Obama or Cameron or Kerry or whoever comes out and gives bullet points on whats going on and maybe 1 or 2 people get to ask one question generally , then its off they go to deal with much more important matters and the whole thing is over in 5 or 10 minutes. Compared to a 1 1/2 hour open press conference , just Putin on a chair (no aides to help him) taking open questions from journalists who didn't just ask one question but would follow up with multiple questions and the answers, (unlike our guys who answer like they are responding to a twitter feed) , were extremely in depth. Simply put when is the last time have any of us in the West have had a leader that in a moment of such crisis basically came out and laid it all on the table like this . And more importantly why in the land of the so called free press is none of our press even talking about this , like not one peep (well pretty much). He's saying some really heavy stuff and from our side of things , no analysis , no debates , no nothing from our news organizations , pretty much mute silence . Crazy and I thought I was living in the land of a free press.

 

But the above isn't even what I had originally intended to post , actually it was something i just stumbled across by luck , didn't even know Putin had done this (and I make it a point to try and keep abreast of these kind of thing , God I'm slipping in my old age) . Anyway the following video is what I intended to focus on , its something that I have been waiting for and he didn't disappoint.

 

 

I know sounds shocking , we're supporting Neo Nazi's , but are you really that surprised . I mean in Libya we know the US supported Al Qaeda cause they then turned around and attacked the US consulate in Benghazzi , killing the US Ambassador , took a bunch of hostages at an oil facility in Algeria killing them all , mostly Europeans and tried to take over Chad (Oops Mali) , requiring the French to rush in forces to drive them back and Syria they first denied for a year and a half , that they were providing support and that wasn't true , but then switched to a non military support story, but that even if true makes no difference cause Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states are openly giving weapons to Al Qaeda and who do they buy them from , the US , who of course only sells them to them cause their protecting them from Iran . Its just a game to these people.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Harbringe

[Harbringe]

Crimea people vote for Russian reunification. Referendum results by exit polls expected to be in the 90% range. This is just not Russian sources saying this but news organizations from various places in the world who have sent people to monitor the results are reporting a similar result . Now if these results are true , it would mean that a large percentage of the resident Ukrainians living in Crimea would have had to vote for the Russian option , even the Tartars (who have had a really bad history with the Russian's) would have had to largely voted in favour of this . The math doesn't work out otherwise .

 

Now I would imagine those against this are gonna trot out the " vote's held at gun point are illegitimate" argument but lets hear what the 135 international observers from the West are saying.Not including the various press organizations that are there.

 

Mateus Psikorkski, the leader of the European observers’ mission and Polish MP told Itar-Tass.“It’s all quiet so far,” “Our observers have not registered any violations of voting rules.”

 

Ewald Stadler, member of the European Parliament “I haven’t seen anything even resembling pressure,” . “People themselves want to have their say.”

 

Bulgarian parliament member Pavel Chernev,"The lines are very long, the turnout is big indeed,” . "Organization and procedures are 100 percent in line with the European standards,"

 

Now these are just the preliminary results , not everything has been counted up and we haven't heard from the majority of the international observers , so don't take this as absolute fact but if it does bear out , the question becomes why.

 

Take the voting results , if it turns out that a significant or large percentage of resident Ukrainians and Tartars in Crimea voted for the Russia option why would they do that . Well maybe its like Putin said in the interview posted earlier in this thread, they have been ruled by scoundrels mostly for the last 20 years , (corruption). So while they get richer the average person gets poorer . The Russian living standard is double what it is in the Ukraine and even if it takes awhile for that to percolate into the Crimean economy , just the switching to the Russian ruble as your currency is going to have an immediate benefit , and if you compare that to the measures being taken by the Kiev authorities in order to abide by the EU/IMF bailout package (austerity measures , such as all pensions being cut in half) , there are a lot of other reasons why someone in that situation would want to get out from under it.

 

As for Putin's angle , well he knows the only way for him to win this is by the people of Crimea voting for it and in winning it there can be absolutely no appearance of electoral impropriety what so ever , otherwise he will lose this and he is too smart to let that happen . We (the West) did the exact same thing in places like Kosovo , Bosnia , Slovakia , etc and we had no problem declaring them to be legitimate exercises in democracy , he is just using the same tack and history and I believe the results will be on his side.

 

William Hague the Foreign Secretary for the UK made the statement that Putin has made a grave miscalculation but he is wrong or purposefully lying to us and its Putin who has played this exactly right . Simply put they (the West) gambled that they could remove the Ukrainian government for a more pro western one and the Russians wouldn't react , because they had been advancing NATO eastward for the last 20 years and the Russians didn't react and they gambled they wouldn't react this time and they were wrong . So all this bluster (sanctions , consequences , blah blah ) were hearing from our leaders is just them distracting you from their own stupidity.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Harbringe

[JimboUK]

I'm sure our great and good will condemn this undemocratic referendum that challenges the democratically elected leadership in Kiev. /sarcasm

[Harbringe]

Here's a vid from an actual Ukrainian , its really interesting to hear how she describes what is going on and why and how that differs from what we are being told in our western main stream media. There is some choppiness and some breaks in vid (suppose due to where it is coming from) but its not too bad.

 

 

 

This next thing may seem unrelated but its not

 

A couple of weeks ago bloggers from Amman Jordan started posting that they were witnessing a heavy presence of Western and Gulf State Officials holding meetings with Syrian rebels and yes Al-Qaeda political people and the rumor that was circulating was that something big was in the offing and people were making the presumption that a southern offensive in Syria was being planned. Well they presumed right.

 

[post=http://news.yahoo.com/syria-rebels-planning-damascus-spring-offensive-181346336.html]Syria rebels say planning Damascus spring offensive[/post]

 

Like I said earlier in this thread the Ukraine is about upping the ante . So its draw Russia off to Ukraine , then go back after Syria.

 

The only thing you really need to understand about these people who are doing these things is this. They were willing to poke a thermonuclear armed Russian bear in the ribs to achieve their agenda and that literally is the level of their insanity. If you don't think that's a problem then your a fool.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Harbringe

[HeyYou]

And now Russia is making the same noises about "protecting ethnic Russian speakers" in Estonia....... which IS a member of NATO. Is Putin this generations Hitler? He is using the same justifications for annexing territories......

[rizon72]

What about the group that doesn't want to be part of Russia, shouldn't they be considered as well? Because there is a group in the newly formed part of Russia, the Ukraine will take back a portion of that to protect those who don't want to be part of Russia and to protect their interests against a growing Russian influence.

[JimboUK]

The people of Crimea voted to rejoin Russia, the referendum was overseen by international observers so can be seen as fair. It was part of Russia, it was given away by a leader who had no democratic mandate at all, much like the thugs and Nazis in Kiev. People should be free to choose their own future, be it in Crimea or later this year in Scotland. As for Putin, he's pushing back against NATOs relentless march east, it was going to happen sooner or later, NATO should have honoured it's agreement with Russia.

[Vindekarr]

And now Russia is making the same noises about "protecting ethnic Russian speakers" in Estonia....... which IS a member of NATO. Is Putin this generations Hitler? He is using the same justifications for annexing territories......

 

Russia has always been a very Imperialist country; it was expansionist under Soviet rule, and going back a long way into history. Putin is undeniably a strong-man, maybe even a dictator, but he isn't comparable to Hitler(thankfully) Hitler's number one weapon was oration; he was the closest I've ever seen to pure evil, but he was incredibly capable at oration and stirring up support-almost like a cult leader.

 

Putin doesn't have that anywhere near that sort of charisma, and while he's hugely egotistical I don't think he's nearly as ambitious, either.

 

Adolf Hitler was a fanatic, and historical accounts suggest he was very volatile-maybe even insane. Whether or not that's disinformation I don't know, but having read the history of that time(my grandfather fought in WWII) my read is he was a volatile, vicious, manipulative and ultimately psychological unstable leader. He can't fairly be compared to Vladimir Putin yet I don't think, not with any credibility.

 

I don't think it's fair to compare an expansionist, somewhat repressive "benevolent" dictator with a man who ordered the deaths of literally millions of innocents and many of his closest allies, while attempting to form a global race-based fascist empire.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Vindekarr

[Vagrant0]

And already, most of America has stopped paying any attention. I blame the constantly overstressed 24 hour news coverage.