Iraq

[JimboUK]

Should the west get involved again?

 

I was against the invasion of Iraq, it was an act of aggression which had no justification whatsoever. However with the country now facing a huge threat from Jihadi nutjobs I think it's time we took responsibility for a problem that wouldn't exist if we hadn't of wrecked the country in the first place. There's also a more pragmatic reason, if we don't help then Iran will and Iraq will end up joining the Iranian sphere on influence.

[HeyYou]

Do we really want to become everyones air force?

 

We spent the better part of a decade training the Iraqi army..... and this is what they have to offer? Our guys get a max of 8 weeks training, and off they go. These guys get ten years, and run at the first sign of trouble.... There ain't no fixin' that.

 

We are not the worlds police force. We cannot become involved in every civil war. We can't afford it. I will grant you, that we are indeed DIRECTLY responsible for the situation in Iraq, but, at some point, the government there is going to have to take ownership of their internal issues.

[JimboUK]

The shocking state of the Iraqi armed forces is our fault as well, if our leaders had brains they would have left the Iraqi military intact under a new command, they didn't. they more or less disbanded it and this is the result. I agree the west is not the worlds police force, however we should take responsibility for what we've done to these people. We made this mess and are now telling the victims that they're on their own, no wonder we're despised in that part of the world.

[Aurielius]

The IA is very reminiscent of ARVN which we also trained for a decade, they cut a ran during the 1975 Spring Offensive, a bit of 'da ja vu' all considered . You cannot instill a backbone in a jelly fish I'm afraid.

 

Unless we ( the west.. and by that I mean Europe also not just the UK & US) want to maintain an allied military presence for 60 plus years as in South Korea then I submit that the Kurds are the only state worth supporting. I favour three states for Iraq, the best of many bad choices. It should be kept in mind that the borders and national identity of Iraq is an artificial construct of the Treaty of Versailles and was more a creature of post colonialism than anything else. We should offer the Kurds a treaty association with NATO or membership and let the Sunni and Shiites fight it out. This fanatical internecine factional war of Muslims dates back centuries and is something of their not our creation.

[Harbringe]

The IA is very reminiscent of ARVN which we also trained for a decade, they cut a ran during the 1975 Spring Offensive, a bit of 'da ja vu' all considered . You cannot instill a backbone in a jelly fish I'm afraid.

 

Can't buy into the whole jelly fish angle , there is something more going on here than mere cowardice. When ISIS/ISIL attacked Mosul they came in with 800 men and Mosul was garrisoned with 30,000 security/army troops . Mosul is a city of near 2 million and there is no way 800 men could be attacking everywhere , yet the stories coming out is that Iraqi troops were abandoning their positions all over the city virtually simultaneously and it not only happened there , it happened over a wide area , also with similar inequal numbers involved . Literally Iraqi troops were abandoning their positions even when ISIS/ISIL were still miles if not dozens of miles away , that doesn't sound like cowardice , that sounds like people acting on cue .

 

Someone organized this to happen and there is only one country with enough pull with the Sunni's of Iraq (tribal, religious and otherwise) to be able to pull this off and that would be Saudi Arabia , the creator and main funder of ISIS/ISIL . Think about it these guys have advanced hundreds of miles in a few days , taking over major cities in a few hours , something the American army was unable to do in 2 goes at it . It's ludicrous , not buying. It also doesn't make sense that the US is choosing not to bomb these guys , claiming they have no identifiable targets , yet people in the region are reporting Iraqi weapons depots being raided and some transported in big convoys back to Syria.What has satellite tech stopped working , I've seen the videos its not like 1 or 2 trucks , its dozens loaded with all kinds of gear even APC's and artillery loaded on trucks (big trucks) and they can't find a target , seriously . I smell a rat

 

Its pretty simple , Saudi Arabia wants war with Iran as does Israel but Israel wont engage in a war with Iran as long as their ally Assad is still functioning along the border with Israel and so Saudi Arabia (and others) has been funding a proxy war against Assad and are losing (albeit slowly). This is just another upping the ante in an overall strategy to win . Saudi Arabia knows that the Sunni's of Iraq don't give a damn about a Shiite run Iraq and are taking advantage of it for the purpose of a much bigger war.

 

This is just becoming one big mess.

[Aurielius]

 

The IA is very reminiscent of ARVN which we also trained for a decade, they cut a ran during the 1975 Spring Offensive, a bit of 'da ja vu' all considered . You cannot instill a backbone in a jelly fish I'm afraid.

 

Can't buy into the whole jelly fish angle , there is something more going on here than mere cowardice. When ISIS/ISIL attacked Mosul they came in with 800 men and Mosul was garrisoned with 30,000 security/army troops . Mosul is a city of near 2 million and there is no way 800 men could be attacking everywhere , yet the stories coming out is that Iraqi troops were abandoning their positions all over the city virtually simultaneously and it not only happened there , it happened over a wide area , also with similar inequal numbers involved . Literally Iraqi troops were abandoning their positions even when ISIS/ISIL were still miles if not dozens of miles away , that doesn't sound like cowardice , that sounds like people acting on cue .

 

Someone organized this to happen and there is only one country with enough pull with the Sunni's of Iraq (tribal, religious and otherwise) to be able to pull this off and that would be Saudi Arabia , the creator and main funder of ISIS/ISIL . Think about it these guys have advanced hundreds of miles in a few days , taking over major cities in a few hours , something the American army was unable to do in 2 goes at it . It's ludicrous , not buying. It also doesn't make sense that the US is choosing not to bomb these guys , claiming they have no identifiable targets , yet people in the region are reporting Iraqi weapons depots being raided and some transported in big convoys back to Syria.What has satellite tech stopped working , I've seen the videos its not like 1 or 2 trucks , its dozens loaded with all kinds of gear even APC's and artillery loaded on trucks (big trucks) and they can't find a target , seriously . I smell a rat

 

Its pretty simple , Saudi Arabia wants war with Iran as does Israel but Israel wont engage in a war with Iran as long as their ally Assad is still functioning along the border with Israel and so Saudi Arabia (and others) has been funding a proxy war against Assad and are losing (albeit slowly). This is just another upping the ante in an overall strategy to win . Saudi Arabia knows that the Sunni's of Iraq don't give a damn about a Shiite run Iraq and are taking advantage of it for the purpose of a much bigger war.

 

This is just becoming one big mess.

 

Sorry I don't buy into international conspiracy theories, especially ones that have Israel and Saudi Arabia as de facto allies. The Saudi's have been very risk adverse throughout their history and this is high stakes international poker in terms of the stakes involved. As to why we (the US) are not escalating our military involvement that is simple, we have incompetent leadership especially in Foreign Policy which has allowed this situation to devolve ( that unearned Nobel Peace prize is looking more and more ludicrous). We now lead from the extreme rear and the nation is war weary, coupled with mid term Congressional losses for the left looming in October, hence a risk adverse administration.

[Harbringe]

 

 

The IA is very reminiscent of ARVN which we also trained for a decade, they cut a ran during the 1975 Spring Offensive, a bit of 'da ja vu' all considered . You cannot instill a backbone in a jelly fish I'm afraid.

 

Can't buy into the whole jelly fish angle , there is something more going on here than mere cowardice.

 

Its pretty simple , Saudi Arabia wants war with Iran as does Israel but Israel wont engage in a war with Iran as long as their ally Assad is still functioning along the border with Israel and so Saudi Arabia (and others) has been funding a proxy war against Assad and are losing (albeit slowly). This is just another upping the ante in an overall strategy to win . Saudi Arabia knows that the Sunni's of Iraq don't give a damn about a Shiite run Iraq and are taking advantage of it for the purpose of a much bigger war.

Sorry I don't buy into international conspiracy theories, especially ones that have Israel and Saudi Arabia as de facto allies. The Saudi's have been very risk adverse throughout their history and this is high stakes international poker in terms of the stakes involved. As to why we (the US) are not escalating our military involvement that is simple, we have incompetent leadership especially in Foreign Policy which has allowed this situation to devolve ( that unearned Nobel Peace prize is looking more and more ludicrous). We now lead from the extreme rear and the nation is war weary, coupled with mid term Congressional losses for the left looming in October, hence a risk adverse administration.

 

 

Was going to show you a bunch of articles going back as far as 2006 saying this has been going on between Israel and Saudi Arabia ,then decided just cut to the chase.

 

[post=http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.585658][/post]

 

[post=http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/14/us-israel-arab-ties-idUSBREA3D0TE20140414][/post]

 

These are from Haaretz and Reuters very reputable news organizations that would of confirmed with the Israeli FM Avigdor Lieberman that he actually said the things he did before it would of gone to print .

 

If the Israeli FM (foreign minister , for those who don't know) Avigdor Lieberman openly says they have been working on this , your no longer dealing with conspiracy , your dealing with something called reality. And all those people who have been saying over the last 8 years that this has been going on weren't conspiracy nuts , they were doing something called telling the truth.

 

Its not a matter of conspiracy , its just a convergence of interests between Israel and Saudi Arabia in regards to Iran . Enemy of my enemy as they say.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Harbringe

[kvnchrist]

Just another catastrophe that keeps on giving. We were arrogant to go in there, Irresponsible to leave and destined to repeat ourselves because , to us, we are the only ones that can fix what we thought we could fix, in the first place.

 

I foresee me retiring in 10 years with the battle sounds of Iraq on the tv.

[blaze1514]

This problem wouldn't have happened if we didn't withdraw to early. Every time we tried to reform a nation in the past we left troops for decades to prevent this kind of thing (Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc...) All of the places we do this are shining examples of what good Americanization can do. Obama and Biden messed this system up because they didn't like the war. Its fine not to like the war and to try other methods, but to take ALL of our troops out when we basically won was the stupidest tactical decision I have ever seen. If we pulled out of S Korea because the war was unpopular, it would be a dead zone like the north. It is simple strategy, so simple in fact that the only way to mess it up is to do it deliberately.

Edited June 20, 2014 by blaze1514

[Aurielius]

This problem wouldn't have happened if we didn't withdraw to early. Every time we tried to reform a nation in the past we left troops for decades to prevent this kind of thing (Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc...) All of the places we do this are shining examples of what good Americanization can do. Obama and Biden messed this system up because they didn't like the war. Its fine not to like the war and to try other methods, but to take ALL of our troops out when we basically won was the stupidest tactical decision I have ever seen. If we pulled out of S Korea because the war was unpopular, it would be a dead zone like the north. It is simple strategy, so simple in fact that the only way to mess it up is to do it deliberately.

Our inept resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue has the unerring ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory to satisfy his policy of abject foreign policy retreat.

The bright side is that there is no such thing as a third term...til then... :ninja: