Booyah , You Can Take Back Your Democracy

[Nintii]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't Harbinge say that this movement bypasses all those fatcats ?

[Aurielius]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't Harbinge say that this movement bypasses all those fatcats ?

A Constitutional Amendment requires passage in 38 out of 50 states to become law. So that is 38 state legislative bodies that it must surmount...just whom do you think sits in those seats? As i pointed before, the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment) an amendment that has 50% of the general population as it's potential backers is still languishing after more than forty years. Constitutional Amendments are not and cannot be ballot initiatives so there is no way to bypass the State Legislatures....where legend has it the Fat-cats start their journey to DC.

A snowball fight in hell is more likely than passage of this new proposition.

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/Aurielius/governmentdemotivationalposter.jpg

[Harbringe]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't Harbinge say that this movement bypasses all those fatcats ?

 

Yep that would be exactly right , that's the whole point. You don't need them. So strange listen to people belly ache about how things are messed up in Washington , then show there is actually a way provided to them to whap Washington up side the head by their founding fathers only to have them slide right back into the belly aching as to why that can't be done .

 

This has been started and not finished twice in American history , the Equal Rights Voting Act of the 1920's and the Civil Rights Act , so this process was started , not finished yet resulted in Amendments to the Constitution , question then becomes why. Its about the legitimacy of their (Washington's) power . Unlike the ERA which was born of their power (written and passed by Congress) and languishes awaiting State ratification (top down) this comes from bottom up which is a challenge to the power of a top down structure. In other words it scares the hell out of them that people might decide to get things done with out them because it shows the country that true power resides with the people and not them . They will do anything to prevent people from realizing that.

 

Aurielius is right about the State legislatures but your wrong about how a Article V Constitutional Amendment works . Its not a ballot initiative , you get your local State government to call for a convention on a specific Constitutional proposal , they go, debate , argue ,whine , get drunk and at end vote it up or down and if up it becomes law of the land , end of story. Once done no one can dispute it.

 

No said it would be easy but when I started following this about a year ago , everyone was saying they would never get anywhere with this and certainly not one of the bigger States , well they have gotten the biggest, California and they certainly have their share of fatcats . Its either this or just give up on your country , things are never gonna get better and are likely to just get worse, but if this is the case then its not the liberals , its not the conservatives , its you the American people who are the problem , you have given up .

 

Anyway I'm not even an American , I'm a Canadian and this is not my problem but in celebration of my Nations birthday today I have a very Canadian solution .

 

Edited July 1, 2014 by Harbringe

[Aurielius]

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't Harbinge say that this movement bypasses all those fatcats ?

 

Yep that would be exactly right , that's the whole point. You don't need them. So strange listen to people belly ache about how things are messed up in Washington , then show there is actually a way provided to them to whap Washington up side the head by their founding fathers only to have them slide right back into the belly aching as to why that can't be done .

 

This has been started and not finished twice in American history , the Equal Rights Voting Act of the 1920's and the Civil Rights Act , so this process was started , not finished yet resulted in Amendments to the Constitution , question then becomes why. Its about the legitimacy of their power . Unlike the ERA which was born of their power (written and passed by Congress) and languishes awaiting State ratification (top down) this comes from bottom up which is a challenge to the power of a top down structure. In other words it scares the hell out of them that people might decide to get things done with out them because it shows the country that true power resides with the people and not them . They will do anything to prevent people from realizing that.

 

Forgive me if I point out (once again) the methodology of your argument ignores the process that amendments must surmount. The flaw that I have yet to see being addressed, is how you get thousands of individual state legislators to vote against their own interests. These are the same people that voted for mandatory health care for you but reserve their privilege of private congressional care for themselves. Sorry, but I am too old in the ways of the world to believe in the altruism of politicians, the gun to their head that you postulate isn't loaded and they know it. .

[HeyYou]

Not like this is new. Bills of this nature come up in congress on a fairly regular basis. 99.99% of them never even make it out of committee. Aurielius, and TRoaches have both already demonstrated why this legislation has zero chance of getting anywhere. You are asking the very people that benefit the MOST from the current system, to end it. Terribly sorry, that is NEVER going to happen. How many of the voting public are actually in favor of this is irrelevant, as congress has already more than adequately demonstrated that what the majority wants, doesn't figure in to their votes in any way, shape, form, or manner.

[Nintii]

@ Aurielius ... so what are you saying that America doesn't belong to the Americans but to the elite ?

[Aurielius]

@ Aurielius ... so what are you saying that America doesn't belong to the Americans but to the elite ?

How you drew that conclusion from what I have written is slightly beyond me. What I, Hey You and TRoaches have said is that the entrenched political class IE: politicians will never pass it regardless of it's merits. As I had thought evident by now, I'm a pragmatist and do not believe in the Tooth Fairy, altruistic politicians or unicorns.

[Harbringe]

 

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't Harbinge say that this movement bypasses all those fatcats ?

 

Yep that would be exactly right , that's the whole point. You don't need them. So strange listen to people belly ache about how things are messed up in Washington , then show there is actually a way provided to them to whap Washington up side the head by their founding fathers only to have them slide right back into the belly aching as to why that can't be done .

Forgive me if I point out (once again) the methodology of your argument ignores the process that amendments must surmount. The flaw that I have yet to see being addressed, is how you get thousands of individual state legislators to vote against their own interests. These are the same people that voted for mandatory health care for you but reserve their privilege of private congressional care for themselves. Sorry, but I am too old in the ways of the world to believe in the altruism of politicians, the gun to their head that you postulate isn't loaded and they know it. .

 

Well how many rep's are in the California State Legislature , 100 - 200 ? somewhere and yet they went against their own interests as you put it . So why did they do this , because its being done on the local level , the guy who represents you locally , who lives down the road or across the way or where ever in your area and instead of petitioning Congress you can bang on his door or call him on the phone or whatever . So when the moment comes and just as in the California Legislature when the speaker stood and asked does anyone (reps) want to stand and speak out against this , no one did because they knew they would be committing political suicide on a local level . That's how its done.

 

Not like this is new. Bills of this nature come up in congress on a fairly regular basis. 99.99% of them never even make it out of committee. Aurielius, and TRoaches have both already demonstrated why this legislation has zero chance of getting anywhere. You are asking the very people that benefit the MOST from the current system, to end it. Terribly sorry, that is NEVER going to happen. How many of the voting public are actually in favor of this is irrelevant, as congress has already more than adequately demonstrated that what the majority wants, doesn't figure in to their votes in any way, shape, form, or manner.

 

No it has not been done on a fairly regular basis , only twice in American history and its got nothing to do with Congress . Them providing themselves with preferential healthcare or ignoring what the majority wants has nothing to do with it , because they (Congress) have no say in this , I'll repeat that, they (Congress) have no say in this. In an Article V Constitutional Convention what Congress , the President , the Supreme Court or any of their lobbyists or donors say or want is irrelevant and using arguments based on that is likewise irrelevant . The only people to which this applies is you and your local representative. Its the safety valve the founding fathers put in the Constitution in order to save the Republic from itself.

[Harbringe]

 

@ Aurielius ... so what are you saying that America doesn't belong to the Americans but to the elite ?

How you drew that conclusion from what I have written is slightly beyond me. What I, Hey You and TRoaches have said is that the entrenched political class IE: politicians will never pass it regardless of it's merits. As I had thought evident by now, I'm a pragmatist and do not believe in the Tooth Fairy, altruistic politicians or unicorns.

 

 

Saying politicians will never do such a thing because its not in their interest (money) is to admit those interests (elites) do own your country. The OP was after all about getting money out of politics and it ain't your average Americans buying your politicians its the elites.

[Aurielius]

 

 

@ Aurielius ... so what are you saying that America doesn't belong to the Americans but to the elite ?

How you drew that conclusion from what I have written is slightly beyond me. What I, Hey You and TRoaches have said is that the entrenched political class IE: politicians will never pass it regardless of it's merits. As I had thought evident by now, I'm a pragmatist and do not believe in the Tooth Fairy, altruistic politicians or unicorns.

 

 

Saying politicians will never do such a thing because its not in their interest (money) is to admit those interests (elites) do own your country. The OP was after all about getting money out of politics and it ain't your average Americans buying your politicians its the elites.

 

I cannot answer for others but I contribute to those whose political ideology conforms to mine. The connection that you have drawn between recognizing a reality and agreeing that elites run the country is pure sophistry. If you were aware of the informational ignorance level of the average US voter you would not count on them to do much of anything, most average voters could not pick out their own senators out of a line up of three. At no point in my counterpoint have I suggested that the proposition does not have merit just that it will never happen.

It's is droll that the most fervent supporters of this concept in this thread are idealistic foreigners versus realistic Americans.