Communism v. Socialism v. Capitalism v. Feudalism

[nosisab]

Feudalism -> to old fashioned for the modern society, only "works" in an rural society, dead today (but we can called Afghanistan as one of the lats feudal society as in it's countryside the tribal's warlords still rules and have very strong political influence)

 

Socialism -> a beauty in theory a completely disaster in reality no rewards for effort and creativity and try to level the society from below bad idea.

 

Capitalism -> not perfect, with flaws but the best of the trio ,have a bad face as exposed but it's not the only face nor the true one, can reward the ones effort and even bring collaboration between groups of people and countries , it's not only a zero-sum game.

There is no reason socialism should not reward effort and creativity, at least not at the extent capitalism rewarding smart above ethical.

 

Everyone should pay attention to that detail, capitalism "does not" rewards creativity, quite the contrary. You can count in your hand's fingers the ones that are the owners of their own creation. There is only one real power in capitalism, money. Money can buy everything... better I stop here.

 

PS: There is a misconcept about that leveling from below. Actually the concept of above and below disappears on leveling. But I digress. I don't believe in equality to all, there is not such thing even in the individual level. What exist is the "abyss" between the classes, that is a bad thing that only gets worser until the 'natural laws' comes and do it's own leveling.

 

PS2: Communism showed it clearly, few systems got that abyss in greater levels. What, again, brings the difference between the discourse and praxis under the spotlight.

[Maxwell the Fool]

@Aurielius: I will add that as an option for now, but Feudalism stays and I need to research more about Mercantilism, it seems good for now, but it MAY actually absolutely demand a specific system of government (which none of the other options do, although they are better suited to some than others).

 

@Trandoshan: I would've awarded you credit and kudos if you had not so "chivalrously" (hurray for abusing the English language!) awarded the former to yourself. You get nothing! :p

 

@Vagrant: Not only is Survival of the Fittest a large part of Capitalism, supply and demand is a large part of nature, a prey becoming scarce (supply) and so the predators jumping on each available prey (demand). Conversely, predators dying out (low demand), so prey increasing, creating overpopulation which is damaging to the environment (business). This also ties into a point I wanted to make about my analogy. The predators were NOT the businesses, they were the fickle markets which are, truly, beyond control. Unless you're Bill Gates, in which case you can be a minor cause of a recession.....

 

Someone mentioned that Capitalism leads to a cresting and falling system. The first man to say that was studying Capitalism for Stalin, he was expected to be a yes man, but his theory was very much IN FAVOR of this cycle.

 

In Capitalism, the system goes through seasons, Summer (prosperous), Fall (declining), Winter (recessed/depressed/just a slight lull), and Spring (recovering). This is natural, and keeps everything running smoothly when aloud to take its course (see depression of 1920-21), but when meddled with (as in any combination of Communism, Socialism and/or Capitalism), you end up in a perpetual Autumn, no growth, no decline, but the hold is so tenuous that it is nearly impossible to hold, and your crutch WILL break.

 

@Trandoshan (again): Not only is Socialism evolved Capitalism which is evolved Feudalism, Communism is evolved Socialism. I didn't say it, Karl Marx did! He also said that those who had yet to evolve even in to Capitalism were descended directly from apes, possible a link between men and apes, and should be exterminated :D

 

EDIT:

 

@Nosisab: Really? No rewards for creativity? Ever heard of a little thing called Bethesda? You know, the video game company, where people make a good living BEING CREATIVE. In America. Which is a Capitalist nation. They are one among countless others that are making advances in an ever-evolving field who are based in America. Also, all other computer-oriented professions are growing in the US, you know, that little box where only two things limit your ability to move up in the world: Effort and Creativity. End rant....

[roguim]

@nosisab

So why the USSR faced an stagnation in technology before the communism fall, and in the same times in US we have the TI revolution in Silicon Valley?

IF Steve Jobs it's not a example of creativity reward in Capitalism.

Not to say the Green-way of thought with companies concerning (if this concerning it's true or false it's other subject) create new ways to behave

[Maharg67]

@Aurielius: I will add that as an option for now, but Feudalism stays and I need to research more about Mercantilism, it seems good for now, but it MAY actually absolutely demand a specific system of government (which none of the other options do, although they are better suited to some than others).

 

@Trandoshan: I would've awarded you credit and kudos if you had not so "chivalrously" (hurray for abusing the English language!) awarded the former to yourself. You get nothing! :p

 

@Vagrant: Not only is Survival of the Fittest a large part of Capitalism, supply and demand is a large part of nature, a prey becoming scarce (supply) and so the predators jumping on each available prey (demand). Conversely, predators dying out (low demand), so prey increasing, creating overpopulation which is damaging to the environment (business). This also ties into a point I wanted to make about my analogy. The predators were NOT the businesses, they were the fickle markets which are, truly, beyond control. Unless you're Bill Gates, in which case you can be a minor cause of a recession.....

 

Someone mentioned that Capitalism leads to a cresting and falling system. The first man to say that was studying Capitalism for Stalin, he was expected to be a yes man, but his theory was very much IN FAVOR of this cycle.

 

In Capitalism, the system goes through seasons, Summer (prosperous), Fall (declining), Winter (recessed/depressed/just a slight lull), and Spring (recovering). This is natural, and keeps everything running smoothly when aloud to take its course (see depression of 1920-21), but when meddled with (as in any combination of Communism, Socialism and/or Capitalism), you end up in a perpetual Autumn, no growth, no decline, but the hold is so tenuous that it is nearly impossible to hold, and your crutch WILL break.

 

@Trandoshan (again): Not only is Socialism evolved Capitalism which is evolved Feudalism, Communism is evolved Socialism. I didn't say it, Karl Marx did! He also said that those who had yet to evolve even in to Capitalism were descended directly from apes, possible a link between men and apes, and should be exterminated :D

 

EDIT:

 

@Nosisab: Really? No rewards for creativity? Ever heard of a little thing called Bethesda? You know, the video game company, where people make a good living BEING CREATIVE. In America. Which is a Capitalist nation. They are one among countless others that are making advances in an ever-evolving field who are based in America. Also, all other computer-oriented professions are growing in the US, you know, that little box where only two things limit your ability to move up in the world: Effort and Creativity. End rant....

 

 

Raw Capitalism leads to greed, pushes greed, is often ruined by greed. Greed of rampant consumerism. Greed of foolish risk taking on the sharemarkets. Greed of short sighted investments. Greed of legal and illegal monopolisation. Greed of exploitation of anybody with less wealth, power and influence. Greed of powerful lobbys corrupting government. Real rewards go to the relatively few and cutting corners is rewarded with profits.

 

You gave Bethesda as an example when they have been attacked for rushing out over hyped but poor products that made them profits. The expansions to Fallout 3 (except for Point Lookout) have all gained few points. Bethesda games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 on PC were not properly debugged when they were brought out.

 

The irony is when overly greedy banks recently caused a world wide crash in the economy, who did they turn to for rescue? The governments including the US Federal Government. So much for non government interferance in the capitalist system. The corporations asked for assistance!

 

As for so called government meddling in the economy, it has more often than not proved to be necessary and historically has been done by both conservative and more left leaning governments. Many conservatives, including corporations, have welcomed regulations and regulating bodies when it has given them a fairer chance of profits, has stopped or at least slowed down the creation of greed based monopolies and has kept an enemployed work force in fair condition in down times so they can go back to being employed more swiftly and efficiently in up times.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Maharg67

[Maxwell the Fool]

I was using Bethesda as an example of creativity, not as an example of greed not affecting production, their products are clearly rushed, but still very creative, and still very successful.

 

I am not arguing for American capitalism, it's simply the example I'm most familiar with, so it does NOT set the precedent for actions taken by a Capitalist nation. The bailouts were very un-capitalist. Yes, they were from both sides of the aisle, but who says one side is more Capitalist than the other? They both have done things clearly contrary to true Capitalism, which is what I'm arguing for. Little off-topic, and please, I really don't want this to turn into a Right v. Left thread, there are enough of those floating around, and that's not the way to come to reasonable ends.

 

There's a book I read in defense of Capitalism which offers a very good argument against your first point. I will not mention the title or author as I fear it will get us to far off topic, as he is very controversial, and no, it's not any political leader or murderer or anything. He was just a writer. Here it is:

 

Greed is not the reckless practices that it is modernly associated. Those practices are simply idiocy. True greed would involve controlling the market, churning out inexpensive quality product. Those who are to expensive will not sell many (supply and demand again), and those who are to cheaply made will not have return customers (S&D). The challenge for businesses is simply to balance these too, creating the products with the right combination of usefulness and profit-taking. Again, supply and demand is at the heart of this theory, and it is simply a homologous philosophy set in more specific scenarios; two admit one is to admit the other.

[nosisab]

Well, that's the end for me since there is not anything to add from what I already said.

 

The examples of creativity being rewarded can't be imputed as privilege of the system, creativity always existed, some was drove by oppression itself...

 

For every example one points of success many others of failure and 'worse than death' can be find. Bioware was once one mine beloved game developers, I really mourn it being 'murdered' under Atari, EA and stuff.

[Aurielius]

I would propose that both China and the European Union are both examples of different ends of the spectrum of Mercantilism. So therefore with such disparate ideological entities sharing the same general model, that being so Mercantilism transcends a need for a political linkage. Given that there is no such thing as "Free Trade" even capitalist systems such as Japan and the United States which both have protectionist legislation.

With the interconnectivity of the global markets, I can see a general blending of the socialist and mercantilist formats forming something new, I guess it will be a matter of which has preeminence in the amalgam.

[Maxwell the Fool]

Well, that's the end for me since there is not anything to add from what I already said.

 

The examples of creativity being rewarded can't be imputed as privilege of the system, creativity always existed, some was drove by oppression itself...

 

I don't understand what you mean by that first sentence. Please explain?

 

You said that creativity was not rewarded in Capitalism. I proved that it was, I never said that creativity only exists within Capitalism, I said that Capitalism encourages creativity and that creativity is a driving force behind Capitalism: In the form of innovation.

 

@Aurielius: I will again say that pure Capitalism is not exemplified by the US. Capitalism is true free trade, which no longer exists in our world. Capitalism as practiced by Japan and America is, you are correct, NOT free trade.

[nosisab]

Well, that's the end for me since there is not anything to add from what I already said.

 

The examples of creativity being rewarded can't be imputed as privilege of the system, creativity always existed, some was drove by oppression itself...

 

I don't understand what you mean by that first sentence. Please explain?

 

You said that creativity was not rewarded in Capitalism. I proved that it was, I never said that creativity only exists within Capitalism, I said that Capitalism encourages creativity and that creativity is a driving force behind Capitalism: In the form of innovation.

 

@Aurielius: I will again say that pure Capitalism is not exemplified by the US. Capitalism is true free trade, which no longer exists in our world. Capitalism as practiced by Japan and America is, you are correct, NOT free trade.

So I need to repeat myself once again

 

The troubles arises when mankind exist to serve the system instead it existing to serve mankind.

 

I'm not defending that or that other system as I'm not shunning them, each one has it's flaws and advantages and all can be exploited.

 

PS: if I'm to shun something, it is uncensored authoritarian ruling and oppression. Capitalism does not even falls in that, capitalism model can be (and it is) used under socialism, communism, feudalism and whateverism over there, what includes republic and democracy, of course.

[Maharg67]

I was using Bethesda as an example of creativity, not as an example of greed not affecting production, their products are clearly rushed, but still very creative, and still very successful.

 

I am not arguing for American capitalism, it's simply the example I'm most familiar with, so it does NOT set the precedent for actions taken by a Capitalist nation. The bailouts were very un-capitalist. Yes, they were from both sides of the aisle, but who says one side is more Capitalist than the other? They both have done things clearly contrary to true Capitalism, which is what I'm arguing for. Little off-topic, and please, I really don't want this to turn into a Right v. Left thread, there are enough of those floating around, and that's not the way to come to reasonable ends.

 

There's a book I read in defense of Capitalism which offers a very good argument against your first point. I will not mention the title or author as I fear it will get us to far off topic, as he is very controversial, and no, it's not any political leader or murderer or anything. He was just a writer. Here it is:

 

Greed is not the reckless practices that it is modernly associated. Those practices are simply idiocy. True greed would involve controlling the market, churning out inexpensive quality product. Those who are to expensive will not sell many (supply and demand again), and those who are to cheaply made will not have return customers (S&D). The challenge for businesses is simply to balance these too, creating the products with the right combination of usefulness and profit-taking. Again, supply and demand is at the heart of this theory, and it is simply a homologous philosophy set in more specific scenarios; two admit one is to admit the other.

 

I apologise if I misunderstood your meaning but then again the rewarding of creativity needs to be balanced with a careful consideration of the quality of the outcome of that creativity. That products of Bethesda were flawed lessens that creativity. I am an aspiring artist. If I sell a damaged painting fraudently or a painting that I did not put myself into fully, then I consider my creativity to have been lessened at some level and that I haved cheated my customer. Indeed I do not try to sell my artworks now because I do not think they are of high enough quality. The success of Bethesda is based as much on massive advertising, lots of peer group awards and the apparent apathy of many players than it is on the actual quality of its products.

 

The irony is I was not trying to create a right left political argument but attempting to steer away from it. I would admit that I might have come across as being overly defensive but this is more to do with current on going illness effecting my mood than anything else.

 

As for the bailouts, they are very much part of modern capitalism in which (for good or worse) the state has become greatly more intwined with the private sector over the decades. The state (government) is not seperate from modern capitalism but is very much a part of it. Capitalism has become dependent on the state. The private public sector relationship is an ironic one of mutual wariness and interdependence. As much as the state can damage the private sector through poor regulations and corruption, the private sector can do the same to the government by cheating on taxes which should be fairly paid (many corporations pay amazingly little tax for the profits that they generate). Capitalism in any given nation is partly shaped by the form of government dominating that nation. Capitalism is thus not the identical entity everywhere.

 

As for the book and author, PM them to me if you wish. There is a fair chance I may have heard about one or both. I will google them and check them out.