Israel, and Gaza.

[Harbringe]

Well, then we have this article, and this one, and this one..... That are all saying differently. A UN official actually ADMITTING that Hamas has been firing rockets from exactly the areas the IDF has been claiming.There are numerous others. Feel free to look them up yourself.

 

See your not listening even to that which your posting , it says from the vicinity , not the actual UN buildings and the UN buildings were the ones targetted. Thats what I stated that the UN has vehemently denied that any rocket attacks have been launch from their buildings and it still stands. Besides this whole notion that the people who are trying to kill you can dictate to you where it is you can fight or by what means is ludcrist , especially when their the one's with the vast majority weaponry . Think about it , with the Israeli designation of 44% of the Gaza Strip as a exclusion zone (as in you can be killed if caught in that zone) this reduces the Gaza Strip to area smaller than Manhattan Island , an area containing over 1.8 million people where exactly would you not be in the vicinity of civilians or their schools or hospitals or whatever . its just not possible when your talking about an area that small . Besides if you use that rational of what conflict should be then your admitting that every combantant in every war since the advent of modern warfare in the American Civil War are by definition terrorists . Because since that time the usage of cities has been common practice by all combatants in all wars as battlefield strategy . Simple fact is you fight where you have to with what you have ,thats the nature of war.

 

As for your links , I was already aware of these reports , but being a Canadian I can emphatically state that the nature of the second link in which the report from the CBC , my CBC is utilized was not what came across my TV screen the night I watched it . What they did was take only the part that promoted their bias and left out the rest . As for the other 2 , its an IDF spokeman (not like he is gonna say anything negative) and the other is one where the IDF is referred to as heroic. You took as your news sources 3 pro Israel , right wing , websites . What it really is , is three sites using an acknowlegement of rockets being fired in the vicinity of UN buildings to justify the targetting of those buildings , its 3 sources but 1 narrative. Seriously , The Blaze , Breitbart , Ben Shapiro , they have been rabidly pro Israel for years no matter the circumstance ,could you be more biased , I don't think so.

 

As for heroic the wisest thing I have heard about that was from a Palestinian father who had lost some of his children in an Israeli air strike , who being interviewed by Press TV (Iran , so not pro Israel) was asked about the heroic resistance of Hamas (as they put it) . He just looked at him and said "there are no heroes in this , there are no good guys in this , there is just people doing bad things to one another . Besides being profound that's someone who can see both narratives and is choosing his own. And thats what it will take to ever really resolve this , not just this current spat but the whole thing .

[HeyYou]

Artillery, Rockets, and missiles are not the most accurate things in the world. Sure, missile actually go looking for their target, but, they aren't the best at it either. I have seen maverick missiles (anti-tank air-to-surface missile) lock on to a tank, but, then decide to hit the bush behind it instead.

 

Also, coming past at 300+ mph in a ground attack fighter, you lock on to whatever is nearest your target, and blow it up. Usually, the target goes with it. This is if you can't actually SEE what you are really targeting, and rocket launchers are notoriously difficult to spot at speed, and altitude. So, they shoot back "in the vicinity" of where the rockets came from.

 

Ever served time in the military? If the answer is "no", then you don't really have a clue what the IDF is dealing with. Their only other alternative is to allow Hamas to launch rockets indiscriminately, with zero retaliation. That is just a non-starter.

 

Also, had you bothered to actually do a bit of your own research, you would have found PICTURES of Hamas rocket launchers RIGHT OUTSIDE an apartment building. As in, within 10 feet. Even if Israeli return fire was dead-on accurate, there would STILL be collateral damage.

 

As for my sources being biased, that is what I came up with in a three second search. There were numerous others, all stating the EXACT same thing, from all over the world. Those just happened to be at the top of the list.

 

You want to paint Israel as the 'bad guy' here? (I will grant that they bear a great deal of responsibility for the situation as a whole, and not just this particular turn of events over the last month or so.....) That's fine. You go right ahead and support the terrorists, that WANT civilian casualties, for EXACTLY this reason. They may be getting their collective keester handed to them in the field, but, on the stage of world opinion, they are 'winning'......

 

The people of Gaza are indeed the only ones that can actually put a stop to this. Unfortunately, they are also the ones that put Hamas in power..... It wasn't until AFTER that happened that the Israelis instituted the blockade. And with good reason.

[Harbringe]

Sure I can agree that there have been strikes that are accidental , in fact have no doubt about it , the fog of war as they call it (s#*! happens) . So half a dozen , a dozen , maybe even a couple of dozen (though your starting to get sloppy at that point) strikes go astray , perfectly understandable but 133 schools and counting is not fog of war , is not accidental , thats systematic , thats collective punishment . I may not have served in the military , but i can read a spec sheet and can understand that except for the israeli tanks (who wouldn't be involved in this kind of suppression) all other Israeli weapon systems use some form of GPS quided munitions or system based on it , munitions or systems in which coordinates have to be entered before they are fired and to assume they have been making these mistakes due to the fog of war 133 + times is biased and delusional . Simple fact is for that many to have been hit someone had to choose to enter those coordinates.

 

Pointing out inconsistacies in the Israeli narrative is not supporting terrorism , its just pointing out the inconsistancies. Something that our Western media virtually ignores , hell you can get better examination of the real issues from Israeli media than you can get in the land of the so called free press with its constitutional protections. And that lack shows in threads like these.

 

Here's the biggest inconsistency , Hamas didn't kidnap and kill those three teens , a group that went rogue years ago did (One person has been arrested and the Israeli police are trying to get others from the group) , yet Netanyahu without any proof immediately blamed Hamas and began a systematic operation (arrests , killings , homes bulldozed) against them and when Hamas holds a News conferance stating they are going to defend themselves in the only way they have , they are called terrorists . Well thats convenient . You say Israel has no choice as long as Hamas fires rockets , well how about releasing all those people that had nothing to do with the murder of those three teens as a way to de-escalate from the situation , even just as a sign of good faith , but Netanyahu wont do that , because that would be an admission that he was making false claims right from the start . Its not the civilian deaths that is winning this for Hamas or the Palestinian people in world opinion , its people recognizing whats currently happening is built on a lie and the civilian deaths are just making that lie all the more ugly. This has been written about in Hareetz in Israel , even played on Channel 10 News in Israel , prompting a Peace Rally a couple of days later calling for an end to this . Yet in our main stream media Israel is always the good guy and Hamas or the PLO or the Palestinians or who ever in whatever circumstance is always portrayed as the bad guy , its just the way it is. Israel has lots of options to end this , they (Netanyahu) just chooses not to .

[Aurielius]

Just a minor point...almost all military's have a stockpile of 'dumb' weapons and usually utilize a conflict to delete their stockpile.

Without being privy to the ROE that the IDF is operating under, all speculation as to their intent, targeting, collateral or intentional damage is specious.

However when you target a city with area attacks your intent is relatively crystal. Not one SSM from Hamas has been launched at a military target.

[Harbringe]

Just a minor point...almost all military's have a stockpile of 'dumb' weapons and usually utilize a conflict to delete their stockpile.

Without being privy to the ROE that the IDF is operating under, all speculation as to their intent, targeting, collateral or intentional damage is specious.

However when you target a city with area attacks your intent is relatively crystal. Not one SSM from Hamas has been launched at a military target.

 

Hold on here ,thats not what Israel has been claiming , they claimed that unlike Hamas they would be using precision guided munitions and systems because unlike Hamas they don't kill innocent civilians and here you are now claiming they aren't because they would want to delete their stockpile of "Dumb" weapons . So they are firing indiscriminate weaponry stockpiles into heavily populated areas just like Hamas , yet one is a terrorist and one is not . Sorry you can't have it both ways. To try and do so is inconsistent and biased .

[HeyYou]

Hamas PURPOSELY targets civilian areas, with zero military value. Israel RETURNS fire to where the rockets are coming from. How is that hard to understand?

[Aurielius]

 

Just a minor point...almost all military's have a stockpile of 'dumb' weapons and usually utilize a conflict to delete their stockpile.

Without being privy to the ROE that the IDF is operating under, all speculation as to their intent, targeting, collateral or intentional damage is specious.

However when you target a city with area attacks your intent is relatively crystal. Not one SSM from Hamas has been launched at a military target.

 

Hold on here ,thats not what Israel has been claiming , they claimed that unlike Hamas they would be using precision guided munitions and systems because unlike Hamas they don't kill innocent civilians and here you are now claiming they aren't because they would want to delete their stockpile of "Dumb" weapons . So they are firing indiscriminate weaponry stockpiles into heavily populated areas just like Hamas , yet one is a terrorist and one is not . Sorry you can't have it both ways. To try and do so is inconsistent and biased .

 

No what I said if you read the second sentence is that speculation as to intent without actual knowledge is specious. Kindly quote the post of mine where I asserted knowledge of the IDF's munition implementation. Bias..? Pot calling the kettle...no one in this thread has come into it virginal.

Nice colors...italics would achieve the same result...is that a portion of your argument? Je comprends l'anglais et vous?

[Harbringe]

Hamas PURPOSELY targets civilian areas, with zero military value. Israel RETURNS fire to where the rockets are coming from. How is that hard to understand?

 

Israel just doesn't return fire from where rockets are coming from , they are also targetting the family homes of Hamas militants who they know are not there because they are out fighting street to street , tunnel to tunnel against the Israeli's. That doesn't include the other structures like schools or hospitals or whatever , especially the UN run ones that are giving the Israeli's their coordinates repeatedly , assuring them no rockets are being fired from their locations and still being targetted . And why wouldn't Hamas firing rockets at Israeli cities be legitimate . Israel is claiming that anything even remotely related to Hamas ( including family homes) is a legitimate target , well every Israeli is required to serve in the military , in fact many have been called up from those very same cities to go kill Hamas and in the process a great many more Palestinians . So its legitimate for one (Israel) side to target the civilian homes of the other , but not (how ever inaccurately) the other side (Hamas) to do the same. So does it come come down to accuracy as to wether something is a legitimate target , if so give the Palestinians highly accurate weaponry and they will specifically target those who are targetting them and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

@ Aurielis

 

Uh no its the Israelis who have been making the claims , I'm not speculating on anything because they are the ones making these claims of only using precision munitions and only targetting military targets (ie We dont kill civilians) , entering into the equation the idea of the IDF clearing out their dumb weapons is whats specious . So let me get this straight you have no direct knowledge of IDF munition implementation , yet you enter the idea of the utilization of dumb weapon stockpiles (conveniently giving explanation to so many errant strikes) into the debate anyhow , yet are not biased , really. I just took your specious statement and reasoned that if this is true , then they are being like Hamas and are using indescriminate munitions just like Hamas . If you are now saying you have no knowledge , then dont enter it in the first place.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Harbringe

[JimboUK]

 

Hamas PURPOSELY targets civilian areas, with zero military value. Israel RETURNS fire to where the rockets are coming from. How is that hard to understand?

 

Israel use missiles to protect civilians, Hamas use civilians to protect missiles.

[HeyYou]

 

Hamas PURPOSELY targets civilian areas, with zero military value. Israel RETURNS fire to where the rockets are coming from. How is that hard to understand?

 

Israel just doesn't return fire from where rockets are coming from , they are also targetting the family homes of Hamas militants who they know are not there because they are out fighting street to street , tunnel to tunnel against the Israeli's. That doesn't include the other structures like schools or hospitals or whatever , especially the UN run ones that are giving the Israeli's their coordinates repeatedly , assuring them no rockets are being fired from their locations and still being targetted . And why wouldn't Hamas firing rockets at Israeli cities be legitimate . Israel is claiming that anything even remotely related to Hamas ( including family homes) is a legitimate target , well every Israeli is required to serve in the military , in fact many have been called up from those very same cities to go kill Hamas and in the process a great many more Palestinians . So its legitimate for one (Israel) side to target the civilian homes of the other , but not (how ever inaccurately) the other side (Hamas) to do the same. So does it come come down to accuracy as to wether something is a legitimate target , if so give the Palestinians highly accurate weaponry and they will specifically target those who are targetting them and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

@ Aurielis

 

Uh no its the Israelis who have been making the claims , I'm not speculating on anything because they are the ones making these claims of only using precision munitions and only targetting military targets (ie We dont kill civilians) , entering into the equation the idea of the IDF clearing out their dumb weapons is whats specious . So let me get this straight you have no direct knowledge of IDF munition implementation , yet you enter the idea of the utilization of dumb weapon stockpiles (conveniently giving explanation to so many errant strikes) into the debate anyhow , yet are not biased , really. I just took your specious statement and reasoned that if this is true , then they are being like Hamas and are using indescriminate munitions just like Hamas . If you are now saying you have no knowledge , then dont enter it in the first place.

 

You wanna support the terrorists, that's your business. I do not.

 

You seem to think that Israel knows all, but, blows stuff up just for something to do. That is most certainly not the case. There have been quite a few successful strikes on Hamas leadership. Expecting every single one to be successful is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

 

Hamas STARTED this particular round of hostilities. They have MANY other avenues of appeal, aside from launching rockets at civilians. Most certainly a war crime. Israel is at least targeting launch sites, and weapons storage areas. and yes, Hamas IS using civilians as cover. They WANT them to die, so folks like you will take their side. Well guess what? It's working.