Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[khyloskye]

I agree, but lets be frank, he´s a good victim, isnt he? Nords due to their appearance and germanic like culture are already a lot like Nazi germany, then there´s the Dunmer in Windhelm and Argonians + the nationalistic drive of the rebellion. The devs made it so many would believe him to be a racist a**hole. Furthermore several long time TES players are still enamoured with the Empire from previous games (interestingly enough this is the same argument as many npcs bring forth "we were always with the Empire" and the Imp moto, better together than separate also pulls people towards them.

 

Eh, the Nords are more akin to Scandinavia than to mainland Europe. Given that almost all of western and northern Europe is "germanic" in descent, I don't see the connection of the Nords to the Nazi's at all. And nationalism, in and of itself, isn't necessarily an evil thing.

 

Since you brought up the Imperial-phile issue, my personal point of view is from someone who's never played any other TES game besides Skyrim. Knowing that, I can say without a doubt that I never once saw Ulfric as racist nor an a**hole. Having never played Oblivion, or even never really knowing anything about TES lore at all when I first played Skyrim, I naturally gravitated towards the Stormcloaks. I have yet, after multiple restarts, to pick Imperials. I don't know if that has anything to do with my TES-games inexperience, or simply personal preference. But it's worth mentioning if only for an unbiased point of view.

Edited May 3, 2016 by khyloskye

[MidbossVyers]

Being raised on ancient Chinese history, I've always thought that different dynasty = different country. In other words, having loyalty to the Septims does not, in any regard, force you to have loyalty to the Medes. If anything, given that the Stormcloaks basically have Talos, the founder of the Septim Empire, as their banner, Imperial loyalty of the past might push one to Stormcloak loyalty of the present. Heimskr even told "the children of the Empire" to "rise up". Nazi concentration of the Jews and US concentration of the Japanese has literally nothing to do with ethnic slums, like the Gray Quarter. Dunmer are free to move around as they please for work, etc.

[Caerulean]

Skyrim is also my first and only TES game, and if I remember correctly, I completed the main, the Dawnguard, and the Dragonborn quests before I was finally able to pick a side between the Imperials and the Stormcloaks.

 

In the end, I picked the Imperials, and it did feel bad because I didn't want to turn my back on the people who just wanted open Talos worship. But I didn't like: Ulfric nor his second-in-command and their Nordic pride; that there was much discontent from the Dark Elves and the Argonians in Windhelm, and that there was an unresolved series of murders; that he had to kill High King Torygg just to make a point and his seemingly inconsiderate use of the Thu'um; that he had to start a war when it already stood on their doorstep; and I didn't like his 'I get what I want' attitude'. Has he ever had a mind of patience and peace, or will it ever remain a pride- and vengeful one? (Or has he ever thought of eliminating the Thalmor presence in Skyrim discreetly? xD)

 

Meanwhile, the Dragonborn has a better chance of setting things right with the Imperials, and possibly lead by example, instead of being a potential rival figure for Ulfric in the eyes of the commonfolk, or however you see it. How can you contest the will of Ulfric when the need comes without upsetting his supporters. Or can you trust that he will be right for the most part? I'd rather the Imperials for playing smart, some core-breaking sacrifices, but time has always been a crucial weapon. Plus, the whole civil war to me was completely counter-productive. *shrug*

[Padre86]

 

 

 

You had to save Thorald Greymane from Fort Northwatch. However while the Thalmor definitely truly want to stamp out Talos worship inciting the flames of Civil War IS a point on their argenda with the worshipper hunts - those are fully compatible goals.

 

You didn't have to do anything in Skyrim, other than escape Helgen. The Greymane rescue mission wasn't part of the Civil War quest, granted, but it does show that there was a very real Thalmor threat in Skyrim, and that it wasn't just a facade. Was this an attempt by the Thalmor to incite civil strife? Likely it was. But the Thalmor were present in Skyrim prior to the civil war and they were actively rooting out those who opposed them....to imply, as some have (though not you) that the Thalmor embassies, patrols, decrees, ect. were simply for-show more than anything else doesn't add up to me. There were very real military and intelligence objectives behind these Thalmor activities, and the Nords had reason enough to want them out of their lands.

 

 

 

 

 

That´s exactly the problem, we dont really know what happened. Arrianus(Imp scholar) claims war crimes were commited. No one else mentions them thus I believe and argue that his claims are propaganda or done by Igmund/Silverblood. Others give his singular claim more weight. Id argue that there arent enough points to say either way, however since nothing can be proven and all positions are in doubt, IMO we cannot blame Ulfric for that. Its a moot point.

 

 

I agree. As I have said numerous times, there is a lot in Skyrim, and TES series in general, that is purposely left vague and open to interpretation.

 

My main point on that issue was that the ransacking and pillaging that normally followed medieval/ancient sieges, including some in TES, was fairly normal to some degree. The only time that things were considered truly bad was when everyone was killed, including the people of high ransom value and importance.

 

 

 

 

I agree, but lets be frank, he´s a good victim, isnt he? Nords due to their appearance and germanic like culture are already a lot like Nazi germany, then there´s the Dunmer in Windhelm and Argonians + the nationalistic drive of the rebellion. The devs made it so many would believe him to be a racist a**hole. Furthermore several long time TES players are still enamoured with the Empire from previous games (interestingly enough this is the same argument as many npcs bring forth "we were always with the Empire" and the Imp moto, better together than separate also pulls people towards them.

 

 

Disagree with the comparison to Nazi Germany. IMO, the Developers definitely used the real life Norse (Scandanavians, Danes, Norwegians, most of whom were originally tribes of German ethnicity) as their source of inspiration for TES' Nords. The nationalism and ethnic pride was prevalent in a lot of different societies and cultures (and still is). To say that they are indicative of Nazi-like culture is a bit of stretch. Just about any real life rebellion you find in the history books is going to have some ethnic pride and nationalism involved.

 

The Dunmer aren't forced to live in the slums of Windhelm...most of them do simply due to their economic situation. If I remember correctly, there is a Dunmer farmer somewhere in the hold of Windhelm who is perfectly happy and content with where he is and says something to the effect of: any race can live a good life in Skyrim, but they have to earn their keep.

 

Similarly the Khajit caravans are forced to peddle their goods outside of all the major cities (even the Imperial-controlled ones), but I suspect that has more to do with economic competition with the city's shop keepers and the fact that many of the Khajit NPC's are either theives or fences for thieves.

 

There certainly are indications of some distrust of foreigners among many of the Nords, not just the Stormcloaks, which given that remoteness of the province is to be expected. However, the Nords overall seem willing to accept foreign races into their cities and ranks so long as they prove themselves worthy. Jarl Balgruuf of Whiterun, arguably the quintessential Nordic city, has a Dunmer as his Housecarl and chief adviser. The Companions, the most Nordic of all the NPC groups found in Skyrim, has all manner of races in their ranks. The Orcish camps are allowed to live in the remote reaches of many holds without bother from the Jarls' guards or the stormcloaks.

 

There aren't many, if any, foreigners in the Stormcloak ranks, but the Stormcloaks are fighting for Nordic independence. Short of being hired as mercenaries or support staff, no foreigners really have any incentive to join their ranks or even play a part in the civil war at all...it's likely to their advantage to wait it out see who wins.

 

Compared to Morrowind which has enslaved Argonians, and the Summerset Isle which is home to a supremacist authoritarian regime, Skyrim isn't as prejudiced or unforgiving as some make it out to be.

[Legedur]

I ended up turning this to a racial thing.

 

- Nord character = join Stormcloaks (besides, i hate the Thalmor with a passion and want to free captured Nords either by them or the Imperials).

- Non Nord character = join the Imperials (mainly for the fact that the Stormcloaks basically insult you all the time, starting with Solaf's brother in Falkreath).

 

I currently play a Breton, so imperials it will be. But i think i will enjoy it much more in the next playthrough when i will join the stormcloaks, because this way i will be free to liberate all captured nords and avenge the victims of Talos worship.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Legedur

[khyloskye]

Skyrim is also my first and only TES game, and if I remember correctly, I completed the main, the Dawnguard, and the Dragonborn quests before I was finally able to pick a side between the Imperials and the Stormcloaks.

 

In the end, I picked the Imperials, and it did feel bad because I didn't want to turn my back on the people who just wanted open Talos worship. But I didn't like: Ulfric nor his second-in-command and their Nordic pride; that there was much discontent from the Dark Elves and the Argonians in Windhelm, and that there was an unresolved series of murders; that he had to kill High King Torygg just to make a point and his seemingly inconsiderate use of the Thu'um; that he had to start a war when it already stood on their doorstep; and I didn't like his 'I get what I want' attitude'. Has he ever had a mind of patience and peace, or will it ever remain a pride- and vengeful one? (Or has he ever thought of eliminating the Thalmor presence in Skyrim discreetly? xD)

 

Meanwhile, the Dragonborn has a better chance of setting things right with the Imperials, and possibly lead by example, instead of being a potential rival figure for Ulfric in the eyes of the commonfolk, or however you see it. How can you contest the will of Ulfric when the need comes without upsetting his supporters. Or can you trust that he will be right for the most part? I'd rather the Imperials for playing smart, some core-breaking sacrifices, but time has always been a crucial weapon. Plus, the whole civil war to me was completely counter-productive. *shrug*

 

Depending on which side you choose, the game differs its representation of each faction somewhat. Choosing Imperials portrays Ulfric and the Stormcloaks in a negative light, just like choosing the Stormcloaks does the same to Tullius and the Imperials. Knowing this, it's somewhat enlightening to "listen in" on each sides' throne room dialogue before the PC chooses sides.

 

 

For instance, Tullius' rhetoric is one of simple strategy and an obvious disdain for Nord culture:

 

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."

Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."

Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."

Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."

Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."

Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."

Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."

Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."

Rikke: "General."

Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."

Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."

Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."

Rikke: "Yes, sir."

Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."

Rikke: "Sir."

Ulfric's rhetoric, on the other hand, conveys a real sense of liberation for Skyrim's people as a whole, and not merely a way to make himself High King:

Galmar: "Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer."

Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around."

Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."

Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?"

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."

Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"

Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."

Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."

Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"

Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"

Ulfric: "Soon."

Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Dead king Torygg."

Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."

Galmar: "We're ready when you are."

Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."

Galmar: "The people are behind you."

Ulfric: "Many I fear still need convincing."

Galmar: "Then let them die with their false kings."

Ulfric: "We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts."

Galmar: "What's left of Skyrim to wager?"

Ulfric: "They have families to think of."

Galmar: "How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families."

Ulfric: "Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?"

Galmar: "I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that."

Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"

Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"

Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."

Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan."

 

 

As for his use of the Thu'um to kill Torygg, you're right that it wasn't an honorable way to go about it. But even Balgruuf, the only other modern Nord we know of(besides Ulfric) to study with the Greybeards, neither condemns nor praises Ulfric for using the Thu'um on Torygg: "No doubt he thought it was the only way to make his point. And also because he knew he could." He certainly didn't applaud it, but at the very least he did understand it. After all, Skyrim is very much a place where a traditional duel to the death is a legitimate form of royal succession. Ulfric may have been dishonorable, depending on your point of view, but he was still acting within his Nordic rights and traditions.

Edited May 4, 2016 by khyloskye

[Rethrain]

Speaking for myself, having played previous games doesn't automatically make me biased towards the Empire, conversely, simply having played Skyrim does not make one automatically unbiased. I was against the Empire in Morrowind. I adapted as the situation changed.

[MidbossVyers]

 

 

 

 

You had to save Thorald Greymane from Fort Northwatch. However while the Thalmor definitely truly want to stamp out Talos worship inciting the flames of Civil War IS a point on their argenda with the worshipper hunts - those are fully compatible goals.

 

You didn't have to do anything in Skyrim, other than escape Helgen. The Greymane rescue mission wasn't part of the Civil War quest, granted, but it does show that there was a very real Thalmor threat in Skyrim, and that it wasn't just a facade. Was this an attempt by the Thalmor to incite civil strife? Likely it was. But the Thalmor were present in Skyrim prior to the civil war and they were actively rooting out those who opposed them....to imply, as some have (though not you) that the Thalmor embassies, patrols, decrees, ect. were simply for-show more than anything else doesn't add up to me. There were very real military and intelligence objectives behind these Thalmor activities, and the Nords had reason enough to want them out of their lands.

 

 

 

 

 

That´s exactly the problem, we dont really know what happened. Arrianus(Imp scholar) claims war crimes were commited. No one else mentions them thus I believe and argue that his claims are propaganda or done by Igmund/Silverblood. Others give his singular claim more weight. Id argue that there arent enough points to say either way, however since nothing can be proven and all positions are in doubt, IMO we cannot blame Ulfric for that. Its a moot point.

 

 

I agree. As I have said numerous times, there is a lot in Skyrim, and TES series in general, that is purposely left vague and open to interpretation.

 

My main point on that issue was that the ransacking and pillaging that normally followed medieval/ancient sieges, including some in TES, was fairly normal to some degree. The only time that things were considered truly bad was when everyone was killed, including the people of high ransom value and importance.

 

 

 

 

I agree, but lets be frank, he´s a good victim, isnt he? Nords due to their appearance and germanic like culture are already a lot like Nazi germany, then there´s the Dunmer in Windhelm and Argonians + the nationalistic drive of the rebellion. The devs made it so many would believe him to be a racist a**hole. Furthermore several long time TES players are still enamoured with the Empire from previous games (interestingly enough this is the same argument as many npcs bring forth "we were always with the Empire" and the Imp moto, better together than separate also pulls people towards them.

 

 

Disagree with the comparison to Nazi Germany. IMO, the Developers definitely used the real life Norse (Scandanavians, Danes, Norwegians, most of whom were originally tribes of German ethnicity) as their source of inspiration for TES' Nords. The nationalism and ethnic pride was prevalent in a lot of different societies and cultures (and still is). To say that they are indicative of Nazi-like culture is a bit of stretch. Just about any real life rebellion you find in the history books is going to have some ethnic pride and nationalism involved.

 

The Dunmer aren't forced to live in the slums of Windhelm...most of them do simply due to their economic situation. If I remember correctly, there is a Dunmer farmer somewhere in the hold of Windhelm who is perfectly happy and content with where he is and says something to the effect of: any race can live a good life in Skyrim, but they have to earn their keep.

 

Similarly the Khajit caravans are forced to peddle their goods outside of all the major cities (even the Imperial-controlled ones), but I suspect that has more to do with economic competition with the city's shop keepers and the fact that many of the Khajit NPC's are either theives or fences for thieves.

 

There certainly are indications of some distrust of foreigners among many of the Nords, not just the Stormcloaks, which given that remoteness of the province is to be expected. However, the Nords overall seem willing to accept foreign races into their cities and ranks so long as they prove themselves worthy. Jarl Balgruuf of Whiterun, arguably the quintessential Nordic city, has a Dunmer as his Housecarl and chief adviser. The Companions, the most Nordic of all the NPC groups found in Skyrim, has all manner of races in their ranks. The Orcish camps are allowed to live in the remote reaches of many holds without bother from the Jarls' guards or the stormcloaks.

 

There aren't many, if any, foreigners in the Stormcloak ranks, but the Stormcloaks are fighting for Nordic independence. Short of being hired as mercenaries or support staff, no foreigners really have any incentive to join their ranks or even play a part in the civil war at all...it's likely to their advantage to wait it out see who wins.

 

Compared to Morrowind which has enslaved Argonians, and the Summerset Isle which is home to a supremacist authoritarian regime, Skyrim isn't as prejudiced or unforgiving as some make it out to be.

 

I have more than a couple non-Nord Stormcloaks. Heck, the Redguards actually have more experience successfully rebelling against the Empire than the Nords do. Same thing with the orcs. Yes, one can say that the Empire gave the orcs racial equality, but that was only after those same orcs got their hands on a giant, time-bending robot (which the Empire and literally everyone else got, as well, somehow). There is literally no more reason for Khajiit to join the Legion than to join the Stormcloaks. Both sides literally treat Khajiit in the exact same fashion (heck, a Khajiit assassin actually managed to get into the Stormcloak hold of Riften somehow), and NPC Khajiit think of both sides in the same way, as well. My Khajiit joined the Stormcloaks only because of this fan art: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Khajiit-Stormcloak-rebel-287271300 There are individual Imperials trying to apply for the Stormcloaks, and apparently, saying that Laelette the Breton joined the Stormcloaks was a reasonable excuse for her disappearance. There is an Argonian housecarl in Stormcloak Morthal and an Imperial steward in Stormcloak Markarth.

[Caerulean]

Making a decision based on those scenes alone is not enough, and the Imperial one made me like and respect Rikke. I may be biased because I'm not one to like this 'Nordic pride', but I fully understand and support Balgruuf who ever had the safety of his people in mind and heart, and he ultimately refused Ulfric's claim. One may say Tullius was wrong to have let himself insulted by this Nordic pride and was close to leaving Whiterun to stand on her own, but there's a reason why leaders aren't alone. If we discount Ulfric and Tullius, there's Galmar and Rikke, and I for sure would pick Rikke's side. Meanwhile in Solitude, there's Falk Firebeard and Thane Bryling, and Elisif is young but her heart is in the right place. The Imperial side just has more deserving and/or skilled leaders/noble figures. Not saying that the Stormcloak side have no good leaders but...

 

Ulfric's conversation with Galmar was indeed moving and I still remember the first time I came into the Palace of the Kings hearing that conversation. But after that, there wasn't much left to convince me to believe or trust in Ulfric. *shrug* (Ugh, I shrug too much. :3)

[LeddBate]

Odahviing and Myself: Flies in after a long absence whilst squishing (and, in Odahviing's case, eating) Thalmor all over Skyrim (Thanks, Mad Frenchie!)

 

Me: (looking around) "Da fug?"

 

Odahviing: "One-hundred and forty one pages. Motaad! I knew you monkeys could chatter... but this!"

 

Me: "Maybe I should say something."

 

Odahviing: "I wouldn't. There seems to be a lot of heavy-hitters besides Lachdonin hanging around these days. You wouldn't want to embarrass yourself..."

 

Me: "Uhm, maybe you're right."

 

Odahviing: "Any more than you usually do..."

 

Me: "WHAT DID YOU SAY!?!"

 

Odahviing: "Nuuuhhh-thing... Oh hey, look! Thalmor!"

 

Me: (Jumps on Odahviing) "Hot Skeever-on-a-stick! Let's gettem!"

 

Both of us: (Singing) "GOING MOBILE!"

Edited May 5, 2016 by LeddBate