Pylonicus Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I don't even understand why so many people in Skyrim think Ulfric would be a good leader. Have you been to Windhelm? That place is governed comically bad. Rampant racism, hostile work rivalries, incompetent police, barely investigated murders, violent citizens, near slavery, and a ruler that is totally preoccupied with another issue rendering him entirely incapable of aiding his own city. Yeah, that's totally the guy I want ruling a nation, the guy that is responsible for a city where almost nobody is happy in any sense of the word. Even if he wasn't basically a huge racist bully, he's still just a terrible ruler. I'd support any movement to prevent his rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 In a time before the Thalmor were tapping the treaty like stuffy bureaucrats? There was nothing to appease. By forcing the Empire to renege on the ban of Talos worship, Ulfric put the Empire in a position where it was challenging the Dominion's authority. This led to pressure from the Dominion where upon the Empire went back on their agreement with Ulfric...which is when he's imprisoned. The connection is obvious. Putting Ulfric in prison was meant to smooth over relations between the Empire and their Aldmeri masters. Except the Empire NEVER reneged on the ban. Igmund and Torygg's father offered something they never had the authority to offer, a deal which was then shot down by the Empire. There is nothing to indicate that the pressure relating to the Talos ban goes back as far as a generation, nor does it make any sense. Why would the Thalmor, who were trying to CREATE an excuse to operate inside the Empire, wait almost 25 years before demanding an inquisition? On the other side, we have a source, dubious as you may beleive it to be, which indicates the Empire was considering sovereignty of the Reach and the admission of the Reachmen into the Empire proper. We know the Empire has protected Orsinium on at least 2 occasions under similar circumstances, and both imprisoned and executed those who have transgressed on its independence, so it is far more reasonable to explain Ulfric's imprisonment by way of his attack on the Reachmen than political pressure from the Thalmor for something the Empire was already stamping out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Except the Empire NEVER reneged on the ban. They did , actually. Look at your precious Bear of Markarth again. "We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordant With the Aldmeri Dominion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) Except the Empire NEVER reneged on the ban. They did , actually. Look at your precious Bear of Markarth again. "We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordant With the Aldmeri Dominion."Well thank you, you've just reinforced the validity of the tome. Why would an Imperial scholar, trying to make the Empire look good, admit to wrongdoing by the Empire? Though, Igmunds testimony indicates that the decision to reinstate Talos was made before the Empire arrived, I think I rather like the Bear of Markarths description better. Particularly when combined with Ulfrics willingless to kill his own people for remaining neutral, the evidence that he was an asset of the Dominion at the time of the Markarth Incedent, and his outright admission that the Talos ban is just a political tool for his rise to power, it makes the testimony of his war crimes that much more supportable. It still does not change the most likely reason behind his imprisonment. There is no indication anywhere in Skyrim of the Thalmor presence being anything but new. Considering we KNOW they wanted access to Skyrim as early as possible, they would have jumped at an opportunity such as the free worship of Talos, and demanded their inquisition then, rather than just his imprisonment. We are also told that Markarth had to hand him over, which implies that it was very soon after the Markarth incident, not the several weeks (minimum) it would have taken the Dominion to learn of the agreement. Edited August 26, 2014 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Well thank you, you've just reinforced the validity of the tome. Why would an Imperial scholar, trying to make the Empire look good, admit to wrongdoing by the Empire? Because that was the best way to put a positive spin on the Empire's shortcomings. Many of the Imperial written books likewise attempt such positive spins. Like when Quintius tried to put a positive spin on the Emperor's surrender, or when Venatus attempted to encourage acceptance of the ban on Talos worship. Spin, spin, and more spin. Wise individuals would do well to read these books with a heaping amount of suspicion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) One thing I do like about debating with you Lachdonin is you do encourage me to revisit the source material, as I did seem to remember Igmund blatantly explaining why Ulfric was arrested. And after checking, he does. So without further ado, I will completely refute your argument that Ulfric was arrested for the crimes the Bear of Markarth accuses him of. Take note, this dialogue is taken word for word. ***** Player: Has the war been hard on Markarth? Jarl Igmund: It all started here. This rebellion. When the Empire lost the Reach during the Great War, we became desperate. We promised a group of Nord militia free worship in exchange for their help to retake the Hold. Then the Elves found out about it. We were forced to arrest all of them. Ulfric Stormcloak, their leader, used the whole thing as proof that the Empire had abandoned Skyrim. The Rebels called it the Markarth Incident. It was the founding day for the Stormcloaks, and where this war really started. Player: Why did you arrest the Nord militia? Jarl Igmund: The White Gold Concordant. Our treaty with the elves after the Great War forbids the worship of Talos. But that's what we promised Ulfric and his men. It seemed foolish looking back but at the time we were hoping the elves wouldn't find out. So when they did find out, it was either arrest Ulfric and the militia or enter into yet another war with the Aldmeri Dominion. The choice was clear, and now Ulfric threatens the thinly veiled peace we sacrificed so much for. Edited August 26, 2014 by Kraeten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyacathusarullistad Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Dat voice though, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Problem with that source Kraeten is that it implies the Elves have all the power - and it was freely given to them by the Empire. If I'm a Skyrim citizen, that's a problem, especially given Skyrim's history with the Elves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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