Is America becoming Socialist ?

[species5478]

Again, let me make myself clear. I fight for homes, health care, and food. Other things should be worked for.

 

Again, I’m debating within the parameters of the topic heading. I’m writing about America creating a socialist system because if we had the fortitude to create one, I’m sure it would work. I’m not surprised that Europeans failed to create a viable socialist system. They’ve been trailing behind Americans for hundreds of years.

 

I can think of many working examples of socialism, actually. You're country obviously isn't on the list. Britain, or Europe, isn't in the topic heading. Yet, even if they were, Europe is not a prime example of why, or why not to use any particular system. Europe failed so miserably at managing their "capitol” that they had citizens rioting in the streets. This was not a fault of socialism. People were upset that banks were getting bailed out, and they weren't. People in Europe LOVE their entitlements. You make it seem like they HATE paid vacations, heath care, college, etc. They're fighting to keep these things. Not to give them away. Let’s be serious without sounding contemptuous. Not only is your country a bad example for how to run a socialist system, but they're a bad example on how to run a Capitalist system as well...next.

[MetalDragon]

OK, maybe you desire a socialist system, I think most people, when given the whole picture of socialism by a neutral party (so as to avoid coloring of the issue) would find it undesirable. And that is the point of a Democracy. It is a government by the will of the people. In America we have a republic, which means we have a democracy where we elect people to represent us. This means that if most people want socialism we would have it, but I do not believe most people want that. We are, of course, social creatures, but we are not social in the way that insects are. We are more akin to a pack of wolves. We work together to achieve what we want, but each are capable of expanding beyond an assigned role in the community. It is through this that we have become what we are. Insects could never have engineered the great machines of men, they would lack the creativity and inclination to do so. As a group of cooperative, fully individual beings we can achieve great heights of science, medicine, philosophy, etc. As a socialist or communist "worker human" entity we have little to no room for inventiveness, creativity, etc.

[ginnyfizz]

Again, let me make myself clear. I fight for homes, health care, and food. Other things should be worked for.

 

Again, I’m debating within the parameters of the topic heading. I’m writing about America creating a socialist system because if we had the fortitude to create one, I’m sure it would work. I’m not surprised that Europeans failed to create a viable socialist system. They’ve been trailing behind Americans for hundreds of years.

 

I can think of many working examples of socialism, actually. You're country obviously isn't on the list. Britain, or Europe, isn't in the topic heading. Yet, even if they were, Europe is not a prime example of why, or why not to use any particular system. Europe failed so miserably at managing their "capitol” that they had citizens rioting in the streets. This was not a fault of socialism. People were upset that banks were getting bailed out, and they weren't. People in Europe LOVE their entitlements. You make it seem like they HATE paid vacations, heath care, college, etc. They're fighting to keep these things. Not to give them away. Let’s be serious without sounding contemptuous. Not only is your country a bad example for how to run a socialist system, but they're a bad example on how to run a Capitalist system as well...next.

 

Now remind me about what I just said? Ahhh yes "when in hole, stop digging". You are arguing against yourself.

 

"Been trailing behind Americans for hundreds of years" - well remind me where you will find the Mother of Parliaments then?

Then there is your rude and racist

 

"Not only is your country a bad example for how to run a socialist system, but they're a bad example on how to run a Capitalist system as well...next."

 

which shows your lack of knowledge of my country, which has been at intervals an economic powerhouse containing first class industrialists, innovators and wealth creators, until Socialists have decided they need to spoil that and soak the rich. I have oftentimes repeated my admiration for the American nation and people, which is PRECISELY why I have been expressing my opinion that I do not wish this Socialist nightmare on them, and think they are too smart to tolerate it anyway. In your rush to attack, you have totally missed the point.

 

You say you can provide many working examples of socialism, and then don't, just in case your examples get shot down. Because actually Europe is, to our eternal shame, the cradle of Socialism. And no I NEVER made it seem like people in Europe don't like their entitlements. They love them so much that when you get a more conservative Government that tells them there must be cuts or more taxes to pay for them, because the Socialists spent money they hadn't got and sent the country bust, they, errr...riot in the streets. Or in Britain, just grumble.

 

I have already given examples where some of the pioneering greatest capitalists in history have also been the greatest humanitarians. You do not need Socialism to get homes, health care and food. That is a myth.

[Aurielius]

I can think of many working examples of socialism, actually. You're country obviously isn't on the list. Britain, or Europe, isn't in the topic heading. Yet, even if they were, Europe is not a prime example of why, or why not to use any particular system. Europe failed so miserably at managing their "capitol” that they had citizens rioting in the streets. This was not a fault of socialism. People were upset that banks were getting bailed out, and they weren't. People in Europe LOVE their entitlements. You make it seem like they HATE paid vacations, heath care, college, etc. They're fighting to keep these things. Not to give them away. Let’s be serious without sounding contemptuous. Not only is your country a bad example for how to run a socialist system, but they're a bad example on how to run a Capitalist system as well...next.

 

@Species

Since you can think of many examples of working socialistic states would you care to elucidate and provide one? Europe was birthplace of socialism so I am somewhat of a loss to see why it is not a representative example of how the effects become manifested. If we leave out European socialism that leaves us either the Russian or Chinese model...I am reasonably sure that you do not want to propose them as something to aspire to.

When you give entitlements to a population that your economic infrastructure cannot support eventually they will have to be curtailed, just because they were popular doesn't make it a viable economic concept. If I give my setter a dog treat four times a day which I cannot afford, she will be disappointed when out of economic necessity I stop the process. I am trying to respect your point of view but it seems that when pinned to a particular point you simply move sideways and evade responsibility for prior comments. Either socialism is a working concept that has sustainability in which case provide an example since it has been around in theory and partial practice for over 100 yrs ; or it is a theoretical ideal that has no practical value in terms of real world politics and economics. It has to be one or the other.

[Lisnpuppy]

I have by in large remained free of this topic and others like it recently. I am surprised and frankly disappointed to see the venom and sometimes attacks that border on personal. Shame on all of you for that. Frankly I think that the last number of post have gotten horribly off topic. The topic is...Is America becoming Socialist...not the viability of Socialism as a system itself. Stop taking pot shots at each other and take pot shots at the fallacy of the arguments.

 

I for one do NOT think America is becoming socialist but perhaps may be adopting some more socialist-like programs. I believe that "pure" Socialism/Communism or Capitalist economic/political systems can NOT exist. The socialist/communist would rely on a completely non-corrupt government to make that even remotely feasible and a Capitalist one would rely on the generosity of the business community to make up charitable donations and run programs to take over social programs that must exist in any government. Also as we know from the U.S. there must still be government control over capitalism (ie..regulations of business, protection of workers, anti-monopoly legislation.)

 

I can not claim to completely understand a government not my own...and no I can not point to one country and say..Look here...Socialism works! Do I think American can and will find SOCIAL programs that work and implement them. Yes I do. Socialized medicine is one that I do hope a middle ground can be found. I am fortunate that my husband has affordable and good health insurance at work. He even has a flexible spending program for medicals which the company puts in a significant amount of money also. But I live in an extremely economically deprived State (West Virginia) and jobs go upon the wind here. I have tons of pre-existing medical issues that would keep me from being insured otherwise and with the current set up I am not sure I would qualify for Medicaid. I also think that food, safe and adequate housing should be a right. My belief of education is that all people should have equal right to education that is fully funded at least up to University. Even then...Why if I do not have money should my educational experience be any less or seem to be less? I would not mind paying taxes to see programs such as these in the United States rather than the foolish spending of today's government. In fact combined social programs which the government works very closely with the private sector would probably be the MOST capable of programs, but there will always be problems and unhappiness. (The current issue with social programs is another issue which I am happy to indulge elsewhere as I have at times BEEN on these social programs.)

 

American government is based on compromise. That is how it came to be and has worked the best. Seems that it works the best when everyone is unhappy *smile*

 

Capitalism and the rights and freedoms of the populace to make good, become more than they were is far to ingrained in American culture..after all one of the reasons we are here is that people from Europe were tired of the wealthy few using the poor masses to anchor themselves upon. A free economy is part of the American identity and psyche that I doubt will be given up soon. So I do not think we are becoming Socialist, but hope that reason to see the fundamental good of certain social programs can made.

[species5478]

"In the first corner, wearing the pink and black trunks, hailing from Phoenix, AZ…5'2, 125 pounds, species5478!" (the crowd goes wild)

 

"In the second corner, three competitors brought in from all around the world! One looks like a dollar bill! The other a gold nugget! And the third resembles a bank vault! Wearing the money green trunks! The Capitalist of Destruction!" (the crowd boos)

 

 

 

Ding!

 

@Metal Dragon

 

Those are agreeable points, which touch on the topic heading quite effectively. Americans do have the freedom to choose the type of society they live in. The vast majority choose Capitalism, which is why America is not becoming socialized. I can't disagree with this comment, because it's true. Human nature is indeed synonymous with that of wolves. Scary…when you think about it.

 

"And the fight begins! MetalDragon steps into the rings throwing jabs, but species is just too quick on her feet…oh the two combatants pull away from another! Blow for blow this looks like a draw!"

 

Ding!

 

@ginnyfizz

 

You're right. Aside from its failures, I don't know as much about your country, as I do my own. For that reason, I'm going to stop writing about your country until I better educate myself with its history.

 

"ginnyfizz is furious! Look at those wild hailmakers! The competitor is going in for a knockout, but can't seem to catch species with any decisive blows! So she hits species with a low shot...Oh! The crowd boos! That's gotta hurt! ginnyfizz has been disqualified!"

 

 

Ding!

 

@Aurielius

 

My examples stem from ancient civilizations. I think they're irrelevant to the current social-political environment that we live in. Their effectiveness probably wouldn't matter though, because you're not a believer in socialism.

 

And no, I don't believe in the Chinese, or Russian models for much of anything. Forgoing their systems of government, both countries have music, food, clothing, cars, customs, environments, etc., that are unappealing to me.

 

And technically, socialism doesn't have to be one thing or the other, as you claim. That is the beauty of socialism. I can be tweaked, altered, and engineered to suit the standards of the people. And again, nobody is disclosing to me, what is to be done about the billions of people who struggle and go without so that we can have X amount of things. Technically, none of you are justified when talking about the negatives of socialism, particularly when the injustices of Capitalism far exceed anything that has stemmed from socialism. Yet, supporters of Capitalism simple turn a blind eye to the pain and suffering our way of life inflicts on others as if to say, "Well it's not happening to my children, or in my country, so I don't care…"

 

"Aurielius catches species with a nasty left hook! She responds with a viscous uppercut! Both fighter's stumbles as they regain their balance, and move in to finish each other off! Aurelia's fancies himself a tactician, but fails to realize that species is an expert counter-attacker! He charges in as she sidesteps, and gets clobbered with a mean right hook! Look at him stumble about! Folks this is an amazing fight! How is Aurielius able to stand after such a devastating blow? The ref jumps in to call the fight, but the ring gets flooded with angry Capitalist supporters! What's going on? It's complete mayhem!"

 

 

 

 

:biggrin:

Let's have a little fun!

[ginnyfizz]

It is necessary to go into the wider aspects of and practical implications of Socialism, with illustrative examples, in order to say whether America is becoming Socialist. For example, drawing parallels between what Obama is doing and what Socialists governments elsewhere have done, and which I have used to say that yes, there is a theoretical danger that Obama could take the USA down a Socialist path, but that in practice, it ain't happening because the American public is on to him.

 

As for your latest post, species5478, just rude as ever.

[grannywils]

Why oh why can I not keep myself out of this facacta thread? Just two quick thoughts.

 

1. Species, I don't think you were rude, I thought you were very funny, and we needed a little levity at about that time. Sometimes we just have to lighten up a little. I think even if it had been at my expense I would have found it amusing.

 

2. Lisnpuppy, I think you were on topic, finally, and got it absolutely right.

[species5478]

I for one do NOT think America is becoming socialist but perhaps may be adopting some more socialist-like programs. I believe that "pure" Socialism/Communism or Capitalist economic/political systems can NOT exist. The socialist/communist would rely on a completely non-corrupt government to make that even remotely feasible and a Capitalist one would rely on the generosity of the business community to make up charitable donations and run programs to take over social programs that must exist in any government. Also as we know from the U.S. there must still be government control over capitalism (ie..regulations of business, protection of workers, anti-monopoly legislation.)

 

Theoretically you’re right, and I agree. Technically though...

 

Burnagirl asked “Is America becoming Socialist?” The word “socialist” is a noun, and describes somebody who believes in or supports socialism, or a socialist party. Since America is not an individual, it cannot become a “socialist”.

You made the mistake that the rest of made by answering the question that you wanted, “Is America becoming socialized?”, and not the one that was posed; "Is America becoming socialist?" But I think it’s threading needles. We should be more lighthearted about the whole thing. We’re all passionate about our beliefs, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I like everybody here, and enjoy debating in these forums because by and large, everyone maintains a proper level of civility even when in disagreement.

 

 

[evilneko]

What again has Obama done that is socialist?

 

@species: I think it'd be best if you just sat down and described the system you'd like to see, in detail. Then maybe you could stop digging yourself deeper into a hole. Also, the native Americans all came from Asia, migrating down through Alaska and Canada. ;) Now they come back up by hook or by crook to enjoy the benefits of American-style democracy and capitalism.

 

Quite frankly I don't see how anyone could say America's moving toward socialism. The president is, much like the previous democrat in office, pretty moderate.