Che Guevara

[evilneko]

I was browsing a random image site, and came upon this, which I thought was totally apropos for this thread.

 

http://dallion.homeip.net/screen/2010-08-24_cap_108.jpg

 

(Actually it was part of a much larger image containing many pie graphs, I cut this one out to spare you the rest)

 

I think pretty much all of us here can agree, that pie chart is probably very close to reality. :laugh:

[Aurielius]

Thank you evilneko that pie chart was superbly appropriate and filled my need for an evening chuckle. A picture truly is worth a thousand words.

[Burnagirl]

Che Guevara mmmm, whatever a persons view may be on him, you cannot deny poverty or rather the witnessing of people living in such abject poverty such as he did is enough to get you to denounce

the wealthy and burn a flag or two ...... I have personally witnessed people with my own eyes - women on landfill rubbish dump searching for anything to bring in a buck or two to survive.

The stench, the flies, the rotting leftovers of the prosperous thrown out as trash, is enough to get you swearing and cursing.

And the powers that be who preach equality and throw tantrums over the smallest perceived sleight against human suffering themselves secretly yet voraciously consume the wealth of the nation on extravagant living ....

 

 

However, having said that, facts must be faced without blinking or wavering - and I'm sure that I'm going to pick up flak for saying this - but to heck with it, I'm going to say it anyway - Most poverty stricken

people in that situation are there because they have chosen to be there.

 

If you check back further enough you will discover that THEY DECIDED to abandon their education before it was completed or just gave up or made bad choices that many of them knew were bad ... I said many, I

never said all, so dont shout me down.

I have heard far to many success stories from people who should have never made it but did, to allow myself to pity those who just never pushed on through until they took hold of success by the throat and held on.

 

I am one such person, high school dropout, drug addict, bad female dog as the Nexus would change my word, etc., but here I am today - EDITED - I've just returned to edit a very respectable list of what I have achieved to date concerning my own home, veheicles,

business and finance etc., stuff that would make you think I was boasting - btw, I'm not ashamed of making it either ...

How is this possible ?

 

Simple I CHOSE to change my situation, and persevered and made it ... many of my old friends are still wallowing in lack and cra* ... whose fault is it ? .... their own.

However, having said that, I make it my business to regularly give to those who are in need ... I have a conscience ...

In the old South Africa the slogan used to be ... freedom before education ... look at where that mentality has got most of the population now ... that's right, poverty, whose fault ? ... their own.

They'd burn the schools thinking that the coming government would give them free money etc., well that never happened anywhere at anytime except once ... Israel came out of Egypt with

their wealth, a never to be repeated event.

 

Anyhow back to Che ... someone once gave me a pair of knickers with his face on ... hehehe, let's just say that I sat on him a lot ... a perfect place for a person pursuing a failed ideology ... the death of us all ...

Marxism ... the world is littered with the corpses of nations that tread that road of destruction.

 

If you can't say Amen then say Ouch !

 

 

Btw Evilneko that's a brilliant pie chart ...

[Chaosblade02]

I think the reason Che hated America is because we are the first to make a system like this and make it work, but on the other hand, nobody is gonna be able to make socialism work. There is no utopia, a perfect society is impossible. And much of this is people just looking to lay blame on someone else for their own problems, hence, lets blame the rich west, rather than corrupt leader, after corrupt leader in our own country. People poor in America, might be considered rich in some countries. I don't agree with Che, or with Glenn Beck, so I didn't vote on this. China and Russia have learned that instead of denying all logic and going against what is proven to work better, lets hop on board and try to do what they are doing instead of continuing a failed communist/socialist government. And all the sudden America is flirting with the idea of becoming more socialist, either we are really stupid, or something really fishy is going on behind closed doors, and I really don't know what to think anymore.

[Ghogiel]

People poor in America, might be considered rich in some countries.

yeah, but then why is it weird that they have to buy Micky D's or junk for dinner becuase it's cheaper than buying vegtables and preparing it yourself... weird huh?

China and Russia have learned that instead of denying all logic and going against what is proven to work better, lets hop on board and try to do what they are doing instead of continuing a failed communist/socialist government. And all the sudden America is flirting with the idea of becoming more socialist, either we are really stupid, or something really fishy is going on behind closed doors, and I really don't know what to think anymore.

you make it sound like there are not inherent problems with capitalism. also adding a social health care system that is free, or at least heavily subsidized and controlled. for all it's citizens sounds like a really good alternative to the way the health care system worked. currently it works on fundamental conflict of interests. Most first world countries provide a form of social health care system.

 

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/5161/chedrinkhm0.jpg

 

yes that is a REAL product. i have seen it on sale in bar in Berlin.

 

people associate fascism with communism. not the same. imo some of what communism is about is a fair way to run a society. the dissolution of social class is a great idealism.

 

fear of communism is something really only found in the states. it is still paranoid of it to this day. < iirc you still get asked the question 'are you a member or have ever been a member of the communist party" when entering the states..

 

anyway.. Che.. He's a nutter. a fighter. see, even though perhaps the things he was fighting for, freedom from repression and equality of the people. he was ultimately a fighter. and a killer. Neither of these things are very noble imo. I know I am going to get flamed for that. but hey, i don't care. come and beat me up and kill me if you are think I'm wrong about that. :whistling:

[JimboUK]

I was browsing a random image site, and came upon this, which I thought was totally apropos for this thread.

 

http://dallion.homeip.net/screen/2010-08-24_cap_108.jpg

 

(Actually it was part of a much larger image containing many pie graphs, I cut this one out to spare you the rest)

 

I think pretty much all of us here can agree, that pie chart is probably very close to reality. :laugh:

 

Reminds me of a Ronald Reagan quote..."How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin."

 

@Ghogiel Communism may sound good on paper (to some) but it doesn't work. It takes away the incentive to do well, in fact it takes away the incentive to do anything but the bare minimum. It doesn't make people better off, it makes everyone but the ruling elite poor. The Soviet Union couldn't even feed itself and had to rely on cheap imports from Western Europe, hardly surprising when there is no incentive for farmers to produce much. Capitalism isn't perfect but it's the best system we've managed to come up with. Education and opportunity are the route to a fairer society, much better than dragging everyone down to the lowest.

[Ghogiel]

misrepresentation of communism- dragging everyone down to the lowest... communism means may things.

 

people say it only works on paper. but no one has actually accomplished communism. so the final stage has never appeared. at most there are in capitalist or social states. communism never actually happened.

 

i know this is general, but everyone seems to do the bare minimum at work anyway. as soon as 9-5 is done they are out the door. Personally i don't think the incentive thing holds no water. before the fall of the berlin wall, when people were willing to wait in line, for hours, just to get a banana. so there is incentive- it's the banana.

 

there are mant things you could say that are weird about communism. but the incentive for doing things is clearly debatable. and i would not base an argument as to why attempts at communism have failed entirely on that.

 

edit: oh and lol!

there is no ruling elite in communism. state doesn't exist.

[JimboUK]

misrepresentation of communism- dragging everyone down to the lowest... communism means may things.

 

people say it only works on paper. but no one has actually accomplished communism. so the final stage has never appeared. at most there are in capitalist or social states. communism never actually happened.

 

i know this is general, but everyone seems to do the bare minimum at work anyway. as soon as 9-5 is done they are out the door. Personally i don't think the incentive thing holds no water. before the fall of the berlin wall, when people were willing to wait in line, for hours, just to get a banana. so there is incentive- it's the banana.

 

there are mant things you could say that are weird about communism. but the incentive for doing things is clearly debatable. and i would not base an argument as to why attempts at communism have failed entirely on that.

 

edit: oh and lol!

there is no ruling elite in communism. state doesn't exist.

 

We've seen communism, it doesn't work. The incentive thing is very important, to deny it is to deny human nature. We need reasons to do things, why work harder when the reward is no different to those who do the bare minimum? Even China has given up on communism. How many people flee the U.S to Cuba? how many fled from West Berlin to the East? Capitalist countries have border controls to keep people out, communist countries have them to keep the people in. That alone tells you how wonderful communism is.

 

Your last comment about no ruling elite and the state no existing makes no sense, someone or some group will always rise to the top, it's human nature. Anyway without state enforcement how do you ensure people don't work for personal gain? if I grow food and there is a shortage how do you ensure I don't keep it for myself or profit by charging more for it? Communist ideals require an oppressive state to ensure compliance.

[Ghogiel]

Your last comment about no ruling elite and the state no existing makes no sense,

yes it does make sense.

 

you just have no idea what communism is.

 

communism = stateless society.

 

Communist ideals require an oppressive state to ensure compliance.

LOL wtf!

 

that is the exact opposite of communism!

 

depending on what you mean, that might be called fascism.

[Chaosblade02]

People poor in America, might be considered rich in some countries.

yeah, but then why is it weird that they have to buy Micky D's or junk for dinner becuase it's cheaper than buying vegtables and preparing it yourself... weird huh?

China and Russia have learned that instead of denying all logic and going against what is proven to work better, lets hop on board and try to do what they are doing instead of continuing a failed communist/socialist government. And all the sudden America is flirting with the idea of becoming more socialist, either we are really stupid, or something really fishy is going on behind closed doors, and I really don't know what to think anymore.

you make it sound like there are not inherent problems with capitalism. also adding a social health care system that is free, or at least heavily subsidized and controlled. for all it's citizens sounds like a really good alternative to the way the health care system worked. currently it works on fundamental conflict of interests. Most first world countries provide a form of social health care system.

 

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/5161/chedrinkhm0.jpg

 

yes that is a REAL product. i have seen it on sale in bar in Berlin.

 

people associate fascism with communism. not the same. imo some of what communism is about is a fair way to run a society. the dissolution of social class is a great idealism.

 

fear of communism is something really only found in the states. it is still paranoid of it to this day. < iirc you still get asked the question 'are you a member or have ever been a member of the communist party" when entering the states..

 

anyway.. Che.. He's a nutter. a fighter. see, even though perhaps the things he was fighting for, freedom from repression and equality of the people. he was ultimately a fighter. and a killer. Neither of these things are very noble imo. I know I am going to get flamed for that. but hey, i don't care. come and beat me up and kill me if you are think I'm wrong about that. :whistling:

 

There is no perfect system, but capitalism at least rewards excellence and people that try hard, are smart, and do their best, while communism promotes mediocrity, and destroys individuality, which is what motivates excellence. People in America have a very strong sense of individuality, and to do well in America, its not a free road, its hard, you gotta work hard and be smart, but at the end of the day, if you are willing to put in what is required, you can at the very least, live a decent life with luxuries not known to people in Communist countries. Communism wouldn't work in America because people have too much pride and individuality, but I have seen a drastic change in what they are teaching kids in school now days which seems like its almost trying to destroy/diminish that. There isn't a single example you can give of a country that has been communist that has worked better than capitalism. Even the Chinese gave in, and just look at their growth under capitalism, they created a middle class, when there used to not be a middle class. You used to have party official's family, and the poor.

 

Europe is more on the socialist side than America is. The reason they waited so long for a program like national health care, is that the people don't want it. And still don't want it according to any poll, but they shoved it down our throats anyway because we were told we need it. My guess is it wont hold up because they will get booted out come election time. People don't trust the government to run such a thing. The government hasn't proven it is capable to control something as important as health care, inefficient bureaucracies, they can't even manage social security without milking funds from it for other purposes, and anyone that has dealt with the US government gets the impression that they simply don't give a s*** and are just there for a paycheck with a tenure that basically states that they can't be fired unless they commit murder. And we should let these same people run our health care? Are you crazy? I would much rather leave that to the private sector, and I can take my business elsewhere if I get bad service. And don't tell me, well you can still buy a private plan, well its gonna be way more expensive to do that than it was before, and most people that aren't rich won't likely be able to afford it, and have to settle for the government plan, which is worse, and also ends up more expensive than the plan they were getting from the private sector that had better service.