Is Bethesda Nordicist?

[FegelTemplar]

I recently read this comparison between Oblivion and Skyrim and it struck me how much it reminded me of nordicistic beliefs. For those who are unaware, nordicism is the belief that the nordic race is superior to other races (it's pretty much the same as the Aryan race myth): http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nordicism . Although Nordicism is simply the belief in a superior nordic race, it's generally been in realtion to the mediterranean race. The Imperials happen to be the counterparts of mediterraneans in TES, and the Nords are, of course, the Nordic.

 

Now I wanna step carefully into this subject because I know how easy it is to shout "conspirancy theorist" when people start naming "-ist" about anything, especially because of how feminists have poisoned any sort of discussion concerning social inequalities. I will start by making a neutral comparison between Oblivion and Skyrim and how the Roman and Nordic cultures were depicted in each. Note that by "Roman" I really mean mediterranean - mediterranean culture mostly originated with the Greeks.

 

 

Oblivion, Imperials:

In Oblivion Imperials live in the ruins of an ancient civilisation. The only mediterranean-inspired creatures roaming around are minotaurs. Many of the other creatures, such as trolls or imps or gnomes, aren't even Mediterranean-inspired, they are actually nordic or germanic. Imperials are presented as the race that conquered Tamriel (although Tiber Septim was arguably a Nord), but are not presented as the best warriors: they are, instead, "shrewd diplomats". There is no real Imperial god pantheon, all gods are TES-specific (Akatosh, Kynareth, Arkay...), not Roman-inspired. There is no archetypical Imperial hero of Kvatch. The game's theme is not inspired of Roman culture at all, but is instead centered around the Oblivion crisis. The game's soundtracks, appearance and other aesthetic elements are not designed to remind the player of a romanticised version of mediterranean culture, they are instead bland fantasy.

 

In reality, Romans did not live in anyone else's ruins. They built their own cities and were known for being good builders. They had a very diversified culture, mainly inspired of Greek culture, and there were many more creatures Bethesda could have incorporated in Oblivion to remind us of that: Minotaurs, Harpies, Gryphons, Pegasi, Phoenix, the list goes on. Like in the game, Romans did conquer almost all of Europe at their peak. They were indeed good diplomats and many of them helped develop the art of speech, namely Cicero, but that did not make them weak warriors like they are presented in TES: they were known for their brutal arenas. Unlike their counterparts in TES who simply share the common god pantheon with other cultures (Akatosh, Kynareth, Arkay, etc), Romans and other mediterraneans in general shared the Greek pantheon, which was unique to them. None of that is represented in TES.

 

 

Skyrim, Nords:

The game screams "Nordic" before you even open the game's box. Nords are the main heroes of the game, as presented in the trailer: the archetypical Dragonborn is a nord who wears romanticised nordic gear, fighting a dragon on a snowy mountain. Most nordic creatures are represented in this game: trolls, giants, wraiths, heck even the zombies have a nordic name: draugr. They're presented as the strongest warriors, honorable, hardworking and trustworthy people. They have a pantheon of their own, inspired of Nordic culture, they even have an afterlife of their own, Sovngarde. The game's aesthetics, soundtracks, landscapes, characters and gear are all designed to place the player in a romanticised version of Scandinavia. All of this, while Imperials in game are presented as "milkdrinkers" who surrendered to the Dominion.

 

In reality, Nordic people mostly lived as farmers. Some were also vikings, who pillaged other towns. They explored the sea a lot, as they conquered Iceland and travelled to America, but failed to stay there. Their culture is diversified, having many gods and tales about them, similar to the Greeks. Most of their mythical creatures are already presented in game. Unlike how glorified they are in Skyrim, they weren't always honorable: like any other human being on this planet, they were equally capable of raping, stealing or murdering others. Also, fun fact, horned viking helmets were never used for war, they were just decorative helmets.

 

 

I put this in spoiler tags for those who are scared of walls of text. Basically what I'm saying is that Romans/Imperials are presented as boring, standard humans in Oblivion while Nords/Scandinavians are presented as glorified honorable men in Skyrim. If Bethesda can present the Nords as 100x more epic as their real-life counterparts, why do they present the Imperials as -100x less epic than their real-life counterparts?

 

And this has an impact on people's minds. A lot of people play TES. These games may condition people to think of the Nordic as epic and of the Mediterraneans as boring, like in this review on ESO's Imperials:

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-bethesda-say-being-an-imperial-is-not-an-overall-gameplay-advantage/

 

Note how the reviewer elevates the "norwegians" to being as epic as lizard-men or cat-men, but refers to the Imperials as the "boring humans". For this reviewer, the "norwegian" is above the "human". This is a result of both race's portrayal in each game.

 

Do you believe that Bethesda may be, in fact, nordicist?

[LoneWolfEburg]

In Oblivion, true, they significantly tuned the Roman aspects down in the portrayal of Cyrodilics, to the point where their Latinate names seemed to be inspired more by Medieval Europe, than by the classical Roman Empire. The whole Cyrodiil-is-now-High-Rock-2.0 thingy was a disappointing decision for many, because most people consider Western Medieval fantasy worlds to be rather bland. However, it's unlikely to be inspired by a version of white supremacist ideology which is considered controversial even within this nasty milieu. "Let's make Cyrodilics to be Medieval Europeans! That'll show people the supremacy of Scandinavians" reasoning isn't exactly coherent. (I remember reading that a Bethesda employer once said that they were attempting to jump on the LOTR bandwagon).

 

The displeasure a large part of fanbase expressed at the blandness of Oblivion's main setting is probably what led to Bethesda taking a more romanticized route with Skyrim, and since Skyrim had long been established as being a quasi-Scandinavia, they just run with it. That's the reason why the setting of Skyrim is less bland than the one of Oblivion - if they took the more generic Oblivion route again, even those who didn't mind it in Oblivion would probably dislike revisiting it for a second time. The Nords aren't presented as being uniformly honorable, either, although a lot of bad things about the most Nord-flavored faction in-game, the Stormcloaks, are all-tell-no-show. But the latter point is too weak to accuse Bethesda of deliberately attempting to force Scandinavian suprematism down our throats.

 

Also note that the article writer does acknowledge that the ESO edition that allows you to play as Cyrodiilic was more popular than he thought.

Edited January 17, 2015 by LoneWolfEburg

[Boombro]

In Oblivion, true, they significantly tuned the Roman aspects down in the portrayal of Cyrodilics, to the point where their Latinate names seemed to be inspired more by Medieval Europe, than by the classical Roman Empire. The whole Cyrodiil-is-now-High-Rock-2.0 thingy was a disappointing decision for many, because most people consider Western Medieval fantasy worlds to be rather bland.However, it's unlikely to be inspired by a version of white supremacist ideology, which is considered controversial even within this nasty milieu. "Let's make Cyrodilics to be Medieval Europeans! That'll show people the supremacy of Scandinavians" reasoning isn't exactly coherent. (I remember reading that a Bethesda employer once said that they were attempting to jump on the LOTR bandwagon).

 

The displeasure a large part of fanbase expressed at the blandness of Oblivion's main setting is probably what led to Bethesda taking a more romanticized route with Skyrim, and since Skyrim had long been established as being a quasi-Scandinavia, they just run with it. That's the reason why the setting of Skyrim is less bland than the one of Oblivion - if they took the more generic Oblivion route again, even those who didn't mind it in Oblivion would probably dislike revisiting it for a second time. The Nords aren't presented as being uniformly honorable, either, although a lot of bad things about the most Nord-flavored faction in-game, the Stormcloaks, are all-tell-no-show. But the latter point is too weak to accuse Bethesda of deliberately attempting to force Scandinavian suprematism down our throats.

 

Also note that the article writer does acknowledge that the ESO edition that allows you to play as Cyrodiilic was more popular than he thought.

I agree, most people are with empire even though in the start they want to cop your head off, why? If you asked them why they would say because the Nords are racist and hate Ulfric.

 

Skyrim is better than oblivion when it comes to this topic. It a good thing they planned on the nords so much in Skyrim or it will be very bland. I'm sure tes6 will even more.

[LoneWolfEburg]

I have the impression that the Stormcloaks have slightly more fans on the Internet, since they are more romantic and they didn't want to chop the player character's head off (if Bethesda had the Stormcloaks want to chop the player's head off, they'd probably be more disliked). However, true, it's not like the fanbase is lacking in Imperial Legion fans, either.

[FegelTemplar]

In Oblivion, true, they significantly tuned the Roman aspects down in the portrayal of Cyrodilics, to the point where their Latinate names seemed to be inspired more by Medieval Europe, than by the classical Roman Empire. The whole Cyrodiil-is-now-High-Rock-2.0 thingy was a disappointing decision for many, because most people consider Western Medieval fantasy worlds to be rather bland. However, it's unlikely to be inspired by a version of white supremacist ideology which is considered controversial even within this nasty milieu. "Let's make Cyrodilics to be Medieval Europeans! That'll show people the supremacy of Scandinavians" reasoning isn't exactly coherent. (I remember reading that a Bethesda employer once said that they were attempting to jump on the LOTR bandwagon).

 

The displeasure a large part of fanbase expressed at the blandness of Oblivion's main setting is probably what led to Bethesda taking a more romanticized route with Skyrim, and since Skyrim had long been established as being a quasi-Scandinavia, they just run with it. That's the reason why the setting of Skyrim is less bland than the one of Oblivion - if they took the more generic Oblivion route again, even those who didn't mind it in Oblivion would probably dislike revisiting it for a second time. The Nords aren't presented as being uniformly honorable, either, although a lot of bad things about the most Nord-flavored faction in-game, the Stormcloaks, are all-tell-no-show. But the latter point is too weak to accuse Bethesda of deliberately attempting to force Scandinavian suprematism down our throats.

 

Also note that the article writer does acknowledge that the ESO edition that allows you to play as Cyrodiilic was more popular than he thought.

Sure, but you have to agree that, within Skyrim alone, ignoring Oblivion, Redguards, Imperials and Bretons are presented as very bland and boring compared to the Nords. Especially the Bretons and Imperials who seem to have no distinct personality or motivations. The Redguards at least seem to be prideful of being from Hammerfell and are described as "the most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel".

[Riprock]

Could it be that the developers find the Nordic aspects of the game mythos more interesting and better food for cultivating the game?

 

It could precious, it could.

[Bloodinfested]

vikings were brutal conquers one might suggest the most technically advance culture considering the master smiths that created the Ulfberht a weapon the metal was centuries ahead of its time.

 

In all fantasy lore and games draw stuff from some history some focus more on one particular thing. Only natural that Skyrim nords are over highlighted. The older games nords were not overly highlighted the Ayields probably thought they were a superior race.

[saurusmaximus]

No, because if you go back to Oblivion, the nords you ran into were just as bland as everyone else. I think the difference in Skyrim is they just did a better job of writing the Nord's cultural backstory to make the civil war more relevant to those playing the game.

[Riprock]

...and each development team has been different, correct?

 

Look at Morrowind. I always found it interesting that 'racist' wasn't tossed around so much when that game was new, even though there were very obvious racist tendencies re: slaves. Have some Nords tell gray-skins they aren't welcome, and look out...But Nords were basically galoots that took their clothes off becasue it was too hot, in Morrowind. They were bumpkins.

 

edit-

 

I thought a strategist planned and anticipated for the enemy's actions while a tactician maneuvered in combat

Edited January 17, 2015 by Riprock

[FegelTemplar]

Could it be that the developers find the Nordic aspects of the game mythos more interesting and better food for cultivating the game?

 

It could precious, it could.

Thereby implying Nordicism.

Why would you make a game with different cultures in it, then favor some over the other? Might as well make the whole game about vikings in that case. But if there's comparisons between cultures being made in game, and they're showing Nordic aspects as "better" than others, then there's a problem there.