Worst writing in the game?

[kimmera]

 

They were never meant to be a particularly significant faction in and of themselves, only a plot device and a point of comparison to the Tong.

 

They aren't a very significant faction. They are literally a handful of people in each of Oblivion and Skyrim. They aren't anything on the same scale as the Tong. They do have a code and a system. In both games it is clear the limits of trying to maintain a code in the remnants of a larger organization.

 

And why is the Sithis link flawed? What about a diety of nihilism is unsuitable to an order of assassins? That you find it a boring concept does not make it an illogical one.

[117649AR]

 

 

They were never meant to be a particularly significant faction in and of themselves, only a plot device and a point of comparison to the Tong.

 

They aren't a very significant faction. They are literally a handful of people in each of Oblivion and Skyrim. They aren't anything on the same scale as the Tong. They do have a code and a system. In both games it is clear the limits of trying to maintain a code in the remnants of a larger organization.

 

And why is the Sithis link flawed? What about a diety of nihilism is unsuitable to an order of assassins? That you find it a boring concept does not make it an illogical one.

 

It's not that the link is flawed, rather that the entire Dark Brotherhood religion and mythology is flawed, as it depends on Sithis' being a sentient patron that consciously supports their actions. That said, there is also no proper explanation given for that link in the first place: they simply go from being purely profit-driven mercenary assassins to worshiping a force that is not self-aware and calling it a God, and claiming to kill in its name. There is no explanation behind the transition, or why/how "Sithis" would even want the Dark Brotherhood to act as it does (killing those targeted by the Black Sacrament, for coin no less). There is little to no correlative link provided. And further, the entire fact that the Dark Brotherhood has a code, a religion and mythology, and a set of traditions goes against their entire original purpose as foils to the Morag Tong. They've replaced the Morag Tong in subsequent games, and it is a shame, as they are far less unique and far more stereotypical.

 

That said, it's clear they are a significant faction, or rather that Bethesda intended them to be a significant faction, as they are one of few factions with large questlines in both Oblivion and Skyrim. I am talking about significance in terms of the game itself: the original Dark Brotherhood were little more than a plot device and a foil to the Tong, not something meant to stand on its own as an intriguing organization.

[kimmera]

 

 

 

They were never meant to be a particularly significant faction in and of themselves, only a plot device and a point of comparison to the Tong.

 

They aren't a very significant faction. They are literally a handful of people in each of Oblivion and Skyrim. They aren't anything on the same scale as the Tong. They do have a code and a system. In both games it is clear the limits of trying to maintain a code in the remnants of a larger organization.

 

And why is the Sithis link flawed? What about a diety of nihilism is unsuitable to an order of assassins? That you find it a boring concept does not make it an illogical one.

 

It's not that the link is flawed, rather that the entire Dark Brotherhood religion and mythology is flawed, as it depends on Sithis' being a sentient patron that consciously supports their actions. That said, there is also no proper explanation given for that link in the first place: they simply go from being purely profit-driven mercenary assassins to worshiping a force that is not self-aware and calling it a God, and claiming to kill in its name. There is no explanation behind the transition, or why/how "Sithis" would even want the Dark Brotherhood to act as it does (killing those targeted by the Black Sacrament, for coin no less). There is little to no correlative link provided. And further, the entire fact that the Dark Brotherhood has a code, a religion and mythology, and a set of traditions goes against their entire original purpose as foils to the Morag Tong. They've replaced the Morag Tong in subsequent games, and it is a shame, as they are far less unique and far more stereotypical.

 

That said, it's clear they are a significant faction, or rather that Bethesda intended them to be a significant faction, as they are one of few factions with large questlines in both Oblivion and Skyrim. I am talking about significance in terms of the game itself: the original Dark Brotherhood were little more than a plot device and a foil to the Tong, not something meant to stand on its own as an intriguing organization.

 

 

This is a very long way from Morrowwind. Perhaps you are right, but I still think the whole skeleton key thing is a much bigger continuity gap. It isn't like we got that much detail on the internal workings of the Dark Brotherhood in Morrowwind, but we have seen the skeleton key before.

 

Frankly the lore change to the skeleton key seems to me like the writers suddenly realized 'hey this thing is pretty OP, we need to write this back out of circulation, lore be damned.'

[Lachdonin]

 

Frankly the lore change to the skeleton key seems to me like the writers suddenly realized 'hey this thing is pretty OP, we need to write this back out of circulation, lore be damned.'

 

 

Did we though? We've had Auriel's Bow three times now... but Vrythur was pretty sure it was in that chest the whole time.

 

Artefacts are more complex than just powerful tools that fit into a single niche. Azura's star was also reportedly a throwing weapon, for instance. The Princes can really do whatever they want with their Artifacts, and impose whatever effects they want. Likely, the Skeleton Key didn't have any effect on the gate to the Evergloam its self, the draining luck was simply Nocturnal's punishment for the theft of the key. It's not like she hasn't done similar things.

[kimmera]

 

 

Frankly the lore change to the skeleton key seems to me like the writers suddenly realized 'hey this thing is pretty OP, we need to write this back out of circulation, lore be damned.'

 

 

Did we though? We've had Auriel's Bow three times now... but Vrythur was pretty sure it was in that chest the whole time.

 

Artefacts are more complex than just powerful tools that fit into a single niche. Azura's star was also reportedly a throwing weapon, for instance. The Princes can really do whatever they want with their Artifacts, and impose whatever effects they want. Likely, the Skeleton Key didn't have any effect on the gate to the Evergloam its self, the draining luck was simply Nocturnal's punishment for the theft of the key. It's not like she hasn't done similar things.

 

 

Which reminds me, the lack of the key obviously wasn't negatively affecting the DB. I suspect that is why the DB was conscripted into an oath to serve Nocturnal before going to retrieve it, to prevent the DB seeing through the scam and just running off with the key....

 

Of course one of the other bits of bad writing is the fact that regardless of what the accomplish, every DB gets treated as if they are an incompetent newbie by whichever guild they apply to....

[Lachdonin]

 

Which reminds me, the lack of the key obviously wasn't negatively affecting the DB.

 

 

I dunno... my Luck attribute definitely went SOMEWHERE.

[kniggit92]

Ehh seems to me like the DB is having a ton of bad luck along the whole questline.. Down to like 8 members, their hideout gets discovered, the coffins cart wheel broke etc.

[kimmera]

Ehh seems to me like the DB is having a ton of bad luck along the whole questline.. Down to like 8 members, their hideout gets discovered, the coffins cart wheel broke etc.

 

Is that actual bad luck though? I mean he pulls off every regular heist with no real difficulties. Meanwhile, the main reason they are down to 8 members is that their leader has given up on them and decided to become a solo act via the key, even stealing from them. Given none of the other leaders seem to do any field work at all (at least no thieving work) and assign it all to you, it seems like they may well not be worth the commitment.

 

Why are they worried about people fearing them anyway? They are a thieve's guild not a terrorist organization. The real question is whether there are even enough targets in the various cities to actually sustain them. I mean after a few assignments, the pickings in any given city start to run dry....... and that is with just the DB actively thieving.

 

Even their supposed 'biggest heist' is more of a dungeon crawl than an actual heist.

[MidbossVyers]

Wait, is DB the acronym for Dark Brotherhood or Dragonborn?

[TheVampireDante]

I believe it's the Dragonborn in this case.