The free-to-use Bug Fix Category

[Zenball]

A poll to follow up the lengthy discussion here in an attempt to get some action.

 

 

Added another "no" option since you didn't indicate someone just doing the same stuff from scratch with credit as a current option for those who can't or don't feel like getting permission.

 

- Vagrant0

Edited November 18, 2010 by Vagrant0

[Dark0ne]

Making polls isn't going to my work load go away, or make me work any faster towards your cause. Especially if said poll has only two radical options, with the "no" option already going against what I said was the case.

[PurplePigeon]

Here we go again...

 

Why is there no option "Modders should be encouraged to allow to use such fixes without special permissions, we don't need a whole new feature for this. If someone tries to enforce their rights over trivial fixes, moderators should settle such disputes on case-by-case basis."?

 

 

Technically, there is absolutely no need in a special category. People who want to let others use their work without special permission can just set permissions appropriately.

 

There are only three problems: some modders don't care about setting permissions for their mods (although they would let everyone use them), some modders overly care about permissions for their mods (they require everyone to obtain a permission from them just in case) and some modders really try to take down whoever "steals" their fixes, although their fixes are not really complex and usually are simply logical solutions that any other modder could come up with.

 

The first problem should be solved by encouraging modders to spend one minute setting the permissions, because they are SRS BUSINESS here.

 

The second problem should be solved by encouraging modders to not be so strict about their rights to such fixes, because they are not really such a SRS BUSINESS. In case they insist that they are sole proprietors of secret knowledge about fixing these bugs, they fall into the third category.

 

And the third category, modders who insist that no-one is allowed to fix a typo in a script because they fixed it first, should be squelched by moderators on case-by-case basis. The community does not benefit but is harmed by such actions.

 

 

To sum up, modders who do not care about permissions should be persuaded to set them, that's all. Maybe if a modder does not set permissions when uploading files, show them a message encouraging them to do so. And those who intentionally don't let everyone use their fixes will simply not upload mods to this new category, thus rendering proposed permission exceptions useless.

 

 

By the way, a category called "Bug fixes" would be really useful. Even if not as a category with special permissions, just a normal category for bug fixes, so that they could be separated from other mods.

[Zenball]

Good idea PurplePigeon - added your suggestion as an option.

 

edit: Added another option for just adding a bug fix category.

[PurplePigeon]

edit: Added another option for just adding a bug fix category.

Well, isn't it a different issue? Because this opinion does not exclude options 2 and 3 and it does not require any changes in the Nexus' policy.

[Zenball]

Well, isn't it a different issue? Because this opinion does not exclude options 2 and 3 and it does not require any changes in the Nexus' policy.

 

2 or 3 can exclude it though.

[Shantih]

I really don't think a poll is going to solve the issue, no offense Zenball.

 

Modders have a right to protect their mods from being re-released especially here on the Nexus (you can't really have a say about what happens on the internet in general). I appreciate the idea behind the Bugfix Compilation but you can't ask for the included mods to be considered as open source which -if I get this right- means that a modder will have no say in what is done with the original mod or even be informed about it once the mod/fix gets included in the compilation. Let's face it, modders don't have many rights over their mods once they release them on the internet but it's important for the Nexus to remain one of the few places where modders do have rights.If you can't take credit for your mod on the Nexus then you won't get credit anywhere. Giving credit is fine but getting permissions is something that is by default necessary as well if only out of respect for the work of fellow modders and what is suggested here (open source) is just too extreme for most modders. Setting such a precedent on the Nexus could have dire consequences for the entire community as modders would certainly start reconsidering the benefits of uploading their mods here.

 

There is a difference between using the same trick another modder has used in the past and using this modder's work. Although there is a difference between a custom mesh, a texture or a script and simply ticking a box in the Geck, we must consider the fact that if the idea for ticking that box comes from examining some other mod then it's not the same as reading tutorials, asking other modders for information or simple experimentation by trial and error.

 

That being said I'm convinced this project got off on a bad start. Instead of modders working together what we have is a community divided into factions like the Legion and the NCR (I'll let you consider which is which ;)). Perhaps something can be done to turn things around and ease the whole situation. As it is it seems to me that this is getting nowhere and that there is a lot of energy and time being wasted when it could used to mod (and play) the game.

 

We shouldn't forget that it's first and foremost about a game and that the minute it stops being fun it's becoming something else and frankly real life is hard enough without that sort of things. IMHO it would probably be better to play by the Nexus rules instead of lobbying for a change that won't happen no matter what the poll says. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort behind the Bugfix Compilation but I think that petitioning for change won't help and that it may well antagonize modders who were still on the fence regarding the idea of a compilation.

[Eiries]

Man, a poll about a ten page topic that links to another ten page topic that was locked. That's an awful lot of reading, which I'm not gonna do. I think I have the gist of what's going on though.

 

My thoughts is "no."

 

Having a category that has its own rules is awkward and confusing. The concept seems off anyway, since the idea behind this stems from your inability to release a mod that uses other people's work without their permission, yes? Even if this category existed, that doesn't mean the modders that have made these fixes thus far will move it into said category, which means you still wouldn't be able to use their work and release it here.

 

I don't understand why you just didn't contact these people first. This is regarding New Vegas, yes? The game just came out; it's not like any of these modders are particularly inaccessible. Or, instead of attempting to change this site's rules, why not just make a thread in the New Vegas forum that compiles links of all the bug fixes created thus far? If it's substantial enough, it will probably get stickied. It's not as convenient as having a single .esp, but at least you're not utilizing other people's work without their permission. In fact, you'll be promoting it.

 

What this seems to come down to is that, once again, the Nexus' permission policies are once again being challenged. That thread was locked already. It's not going to change.

 

TL;DR version:

 

Modders have a right to protect their mods from being re-released especially here on the Nexus.

[Arthmoor]

No need to go into a lengthy post. Put simply, bugfixes that don't require elaborate solutions and amount to nothing more than checkbox fixes or typo corrections absolutely should not be given the same level of protection as original content. It's ludicrous.

[Zenball]

@Eiries - thanks for your input, shame it's based upon kneejerk, reactionary response and assumption, adds absolutely nothing to the discussion and shows a basic failure to engage in the topic with even a modicum of intelligence or awareness.

 

The concept seems off anyway, since the idea behind this stems from your inability to release a mod that uses other people's work without their permission, yes?

 

No. The patch has been re-uploaded by someone else with my blessing and has all permissions gained, due to me spending far too long getting around 45 different authors to give me permission in order to get the file released from lock down. However, this was taking up all my time and I wasn't even getting any work done on doing the patch. I was not prepared to do this, so I discontinued the mod. The reason the mod is uploaded now is because I made the effort to get permissions. Even though I disagreed with this in principal.

 

Now Dynastia has taken it over. Have a look at the mod thread, zipfile's very helpful comment dated 03:36, 17 November 2010, on page. He lists 60 mods that are candidates to go in the patch. Most of these will require new permission. 45 permissions took about a week to get, with some authors responding immediately, some within a few days, and some over a week later, most of these in the last two categories.

 

That is hours of work, doing what? Not working on the patch, no. In fact, it is hours of work pursuing permissions for bug fixes. Vanilla bug fixes. Not creative work. I'm not saying 'all mods should be open source, no one can protect their mods, anarchy in the nexus', although this reductio ad absurdum has been levelled at what I'm arguing many times. Most of the people who are seemingly against even talking about this sensibly have had a bad experience in which someone has ripped off their mod, and so see me as the face of ripping off mods and therefore brand me as the enemy of all good modders everywhere. They think I'm endorsing people using their painstakingly created mods without permission or credit, and therefore that I'm wrong, full stop, WRONG, NO, ASK PERMISSION, THEY ARE THE RULES.

 

Ahem? I'm not saying what you're having a go at me for, sorry.

 

Or, instead of attempting to change this site's rules, why not just make a thread in the New Vegas forum that compiles links of all the bug fixes created thus far?

 

What, like here?

 

I was doing that, before the mod got taken down. Once more you show your lack of appreciation for the matter, further rendering your opinion misinformed and therefore irrelevant. No wonder you find the proposition that the poll puts forwards 'awkward and confusing'.

 

Anyway, there is now no point in pursuing the matter. Dark0ne has told me that he intends to take absolutely no notice of this poll whatever the outcome, and does not see dealing with this issue as a priority, despite the pages of heated debate about the subject. He has basically told me to go somewhere else, so the issue is now being stonewalled. That's what you get for questioning authoritah. So this shall be my last post on the matter. I'm off to fill in one of these.