BLOG PIECE: Modding as a hobby versus modding as a career, and the position of the Nexus

[weijiesen]

In response to post #24495219.

Kraheera wrote: What I would like to see is "donation" buttons. In "curated" workshops, why not allow users to donate how much they think the mod is worth? Instead of "selling" the mod, allow the mod authors to create their mods and then allow people to donate?

In this way, the mod authors still get to 'compete' for the most endorsements, the most sponsoring, the most page views.

Falskaar for instance "deserves" money, because it's amazing. People could donate to the author/s of their favorite mods in the hope that the author would continue to mod for the game they love. Developers could do this as well - create more 'mods/dlc' and continue to develop for a game that still makes them tons of money through donations - donations that would say just how much the gamers still love the content.

But like many - the idea of being forced to purchase mods for real money bothers me. Mods are, by definition, user-created additions to a game. The pandora's box is there. What happens when a mod author creates a sub par mod, but gets it to 'look nice' for people to buy. Then those people spend their money, only to find out that the mod is trash? They have 'wasted' their money without any real ability to test it for themselves - to make sure that it works correctly with their game.

For instance - i run with a lot of texture mods, and my system handles it just fine. But a friend with a similar system might run into stability problems, even though our systems are nearly the same. No matter what they do, they might not be able to get the same mod order to work correctly.

If they had to buy those mods, they've lost their money because their system just couldn't take it, even though 'logically' it should have been possible. This isn't a problem so much with developer driven DLC (though that does happen).

This is a pandora's box that makes me very, very leery. And like some have stated - I can very easily see certain companies making it impossible for their games to be modded outside of those curated workshops. I would never buy those games again, and I can only hope those who love mods would do the same.

You mean have other mod workshops add buttons like the ''donation" buttons here on nexus? Edited April 21, 2015 by weijiesen

[Thaiauxn]

In response to post #24495219. #24501694 is also a reply to the same post.

Kraheera wrote: What I would like to see is "donation" buttons. In "curated" workshops, why not allow users to donate how much they think the mod is worth? Instead of "selling" the mod, allow the mod authors to create their mods and then allow people to donate?

In this way, the mod authors still get to 'compete' for the most endorsements, the most sponsoring, the most page views.

Falskaar for instance "deserves" money, because it's amazing. People could donate to the author/s of their favorite mods in the hope that the author would continue to mod for the game they love. Developers could do this as well - create more 'mods/dlc' and continue to develop for a game that still makes them tons of money through donations - donations that would say just how much the gamers still love the content.

But like many - the idea of being forced to purchase mods for real money bothers me. Mods are, by definition, user-created additions to a game. The pandora's box is there. What happens when a mod author creates a sub par mod, but gets it to 'look nice' for people to buy. Then those people spend their money, only to find out that the mod is trash? They have 'wasted' their money without any real ability to test it for themselves - to make sure that it works correctly with their game.

For instance - i run with a lot of texture mods, and my system handles it just fine. But a friend with a similar system might run into stability problems, even though our systems are nearly the same. No matter what they do, they might not be able to get the same mod order to work correctly.

If they had to buy those mods, they've lost their money because their system just couldn't take it, even though 'logically' it should have been possible. This isn't a problem so much with developer driven DLC (though that does happen).

This is a pandora's box that makes me very, very leery. And like some have stated - I can very easily see certain companies making it impossible for their games to be modded outside of those curated workshops. I would never buy those games again, and I can only hope those who love mods would do the same.

weijiesen wrote: You mean have other mod workshops add buttons like the ''donation" buttons here on nexus?

That's what I've been sayin. :p

https://gumroad.com/l/TqTzB

We could get away with the donate system being more prevalent. A Pay what you will system would help drive home the message that there are people making mods, not just robots. Edited April 21, 2015 by Thaiauxn

[shoeshine74]

In response to post #24495219. #24501694, #24502214 are all replies on the same post.

Kraheera wrote: What I would like to see is "donation" buttons. In "curated" workshops, why not allow users to donate how much they think the mod is worth? Instead of "selling" the mod, allow the mod authors to create their mods and then allow people to donate?

In this way, the mod authors still get to 'compete' for the most endorsements, the most sponsoring, the most page views.

Falskaar for instance "deserves" money, because it's amazing. People could donate to the author/s of their favorite mods in the hope that the author would continue to mod for the game they love. Developers could do this as well - create more 'mods/dlc' and continue to develop for a game that still makes them tons of money through donations - donations that would say just how much the gamers still love the content.

But like many - the idea of being forced to purchase mods for real money bothers me. Mods are, by definition, user-created additions to a game. The pandora's box is there. What happens when a mod author creates a sub par mod, but gets it to 'look nice' for people to buy. Then those people spend their money, only to find out that the mod is trash? They have 'wasted' their money without any real ability to test it for themselves - to make sure that it works correctly with their game.

For instance - i run with a lot of texture mods, and my system handles it just fine. But a friend with a similar system might run into stability problems, even though our systems are nearly the same. No matter what they do, they might not be able to get the same mod order to work correctly.

If they had to buy those mods, they've lost their money because their system just couldn't take it, even though 'logically' it should have been possible. This isn't a problem so much with developer driven DLC (though that does happen).

This is a pandora's box that makes me very, very leery. And like some have stated - I can very easily see certain companies making it impossible for their games to be modded outside of those curated workshops. I would never buy those games again, and I can only hope those who love mods would do the same.

weijiesen wrote: You mean have other mod workshops add buttons like the ''donation" buttons here on nexus?

Thaiauxn wrote: That's what I've been sayin. :p

https://gumroad.com/l/TqTzB

We could get away with the donate system being more prevalent. A Pay what you will system would help drive home the message that there are people making mods, not just robots.

I totally agree with the idea of a donate button. Of all the concerns I've seen, A donate button (that doesn't tell the world what someone has made off a mod) would be ideal in retaining what makes nexus so great. That way mods remain free, and modders get the UNDENIABLE LOVE that they DESERVE. The elephant in the room being the house cut.

[Ceryn]

In response to post #24164994.

Rayek wrote: Worrisome post.

To me the spirit of modding is creativity and sharing. Money does not go well with creativity and sharing.

Trying to look at it from a positive aspect but it just leaves a sickening feeling.

Essentially this. I'm trying to see this positively, but the only thing I'm managing to see is an increasing amount of mods without source scripts, less resource packs, less overall cooperation and community spirit. Someone wanting to monetize their work is probably going to be less keen on putting a source script out that would allow someone to basically recreate the mod and get around the paying. It's the sort of community exploration and discoveries of how to do things that I have always enjoyed about TES modding, and if that is damaged in some way, I don't think that's going to at all be good.

I don't mod on any serious tier, obviously, as I've never released a thing. I do enjoy reading through source scripts, getting a better handle on things, though. I'd hate to see modding become a hugely locked up, DRM'd experience. Especially on TES games with the piles of bugs Bethesda leaves unfixed, and sometimes lackluster systems that almost beg for huge overhauls.

I suppose though, whatever is going to happen will happen. If it happens to go the way of all the good mods requiring me to be nickle and dimed to death though, I suspect my days of using them will be over.

[Thaiauxn]

In response to post #23594979. #23595194, #23595354, #24454789 are all replies on the same post.

SolidusEkans wrote: So, developers want fans to create paid content for them?

chaptermaster21 wrote: It will basically be user generated dlc. More money for the developers and even less work for them to do lol.

KGMeisenbacher wrote: And mods are usually made with inferior quality as well, since they're done by amateurs. One of the main reasons why I'm touchy about quest mods is that the voice acting is either poor or nonexistent, and they're not always lore friendly.

Sandhorse wrote: ...

@KGMeisenbacher

O RLY?

[Thaiauxn]

In response to post #24495219. #24501694, #24502214, #24503509 are all replies on the same post.

Kraheera wrote: What I would like to see is "donation" buttons. In "curated" workshops, why not allow users to donate how much they think the mod is worth? Instead of "selling" the mod, allow the mod authors to create their mods and then allow people to donate?

In this way, the mod authors still get to 'compete' for the most endorsements, the most sponsoring, the most page views.

Falskaar for instance "deserves" money, because it's amazing. People could donate to the author/s of their favorite mods in the hope that the author would continue to mod for the game they love. Developers could do this as well - create more 'mods/dlc' and continue to develop for a game that still makes them tons of money through donations - donations that would say just how much the gamers still love the content.

But like many - the idea of being forced to purchase mods for real money bothers me. Mods are, by definition, user-created additions to a game. The pandora's box is there. What happens when a mod author creates a sub par mod, but gets it to 'look nice' for people to buy. Then those people spend their money, only to find out that the mod is trash? They have 'wasted' their money without any real ability to test it for themselves - to make sure that it works correctly with their game.

For instance - i run with a lot of texture mods, and my system handles it just fine. But a friend with a similar system might run into stability problems, even though our systems are nearly the same. No matter what they do, they might not be able to get the same mod order to work correctly.

If they had to buy those mods, they've lost their money because their system just couldn't take it, even though 'logically' it should have been possible. This isn't a problem so much with developer driven DLC (though that does happen).

This is a pandora's box that makes me very, very leery. And like some have stated - I can very easily see certain companies making it impossible for their games to be modded outside of those curated workshops. I would never buy those games again, and I can only hope those who love mods would do the same.

weijiesen wrote: You mean have other mod workshops add buttons like the ''donation" buttons here on nexus?

Thaiauxn wrote: That's what I've been sayin. :p

https://gumroad.com/l/TqTzB

We could get away with the donate system being more prevalent. A Pay what you will system would help drive home the message that there are people making mods, not just robots.

shoeshine74 wrote: I totally agree with the idea of a donate button. Of all the concerns I've seen, A donate button (that doesn't tell the world what someone has made off a mod) would be ideal in retaining what makes nexus so great. That way mods remain free, and modders get the UNDENIABLE LOVE that they DESERVE. The elephant in the room being the house cut.

We have a donate system on Nexus, but I can add to the poll that was taken some months back that the donations we receive are around 8 in 165,000 unique downloads.

Of those 8 I've got 15 messages asking if we had a donate button. :p The interface is very coy about it.

That said, the money for our work is seen as a gift rather than a reward. It goes towards funding some of the expenses I've incurred in getting F: PB made. Even if monetization were available today, F: PB would still be released for free. that's the spirit of our project. Edited April 21, 2015 by Thaiauxn

[Aedred]

In response to post #24487659. #24491374 is also a reply to the same post.

Aedred wrote: If you want to know how things will turn out, just look at websites like Cheat Happens and MrAntiFun. They charge a fee for game trainers, something that used to be free, done by people for recognition and for the fun of it. You'll be hard pressed to find a decent, free trainer for games now a days compared to years ago.

Much the same for mods in the future I imagine, since most people seem to care more about money than anything, you'll be hard pressed to find a good mod for free compared to these days and the days of yesteryears. I absolutely think people should get paid for their work, but I absolutely find it disgusting that people would call modding video games work, largely in the sense of "I'm doing this, because I need money.".

One other thing I've noticed, thanks to the internet and digital distribution, is that many big name development companies have gotten LAZY, capitalized for emphasis. The example I'll use here is the upcoming game Star Wars: Battlfront 3. Seriously, go look up the info on what content is getting released compared to the content that got released in the original Battlefront. Knowing EA and DICE's track record, what will follow is a flood of possible DLC that you pay extra money for, extra money to gain the base level content of a game that came out years ago....

So what does the above paragraph have to do with modders? The above paragraph implies that games, that allow modding, would enable developers to cut corners (and costs) to release a game half-assed, and incentivize players to complete their game and get paid for doing it... Maybe I'm just behind on the times and modders are totally ok with finishing a developer's work for a game that isn't the modder's sole property, but quite frankly this is just raising the bar for a whole new level of low standards.

BigBodZod wrote: To some degree I will agree with you but the world doesn't always work pro-bono, that being said, everyone that enjoys playing games be it with or without mods and dlc should still be able to play these games.

As consumers it's up to us to decide to play games with or without DLC and/or mods.

I have extra funds I budget out each payday for games, this includes DLC.

So will game devs/pubs continue down the DLC path ? Yes

Will they offer modding in their games moving forward ? Some will as Bethesda has proven over and over again that modding adds to the overall gaming experience and gives that game longevity, I'm still playing Skyrim over and over again with different mod combos.

I don't think you can pidgeon hole devs/pubs as all LAZY and/or GREEDY, but yest there are those that will be this way due to the nature of the corporate beast, beholding to shareholders :(

Using Skyrim as an example I do see a ton of new modders publishing only on the Steam Workshop and for modding this is a good thing in the long run.

Your comments about Cheathappens I think misses the one mark, Cal and Pwiz have a ton of experience now and have added more staff members to help with their site.

They also offer FREE trainers still from others and of course there are sites like Cheat Engine as well.

I have no issues paying for a Lifetime Membership for that site along with my Premium Membership for the Nexus, they are both useful to me.

I need to point out that there are game trainers from Cheat Happens, for video games that are over 10 years old, which are still locked behind a pay wall. Interestingly enough, the trainers from this company have trackers in them to make sure you aren't "stealing" their products.

Here's a post of the ArmA 2 content from their website as an example:
http://www.cheathappens.com/15184-PC-ArmA_2_cheats

http://www.cheathappens.com/show_board2.asp?headID=99609&titleID=15184

The oldest trainer is from 2009 and it STILL hasn't been released. The second link is showing what PWizard has to say on the matter of free trainers. I'll quote him incase he removes that post, "support our site if you enjoy our work."

Now imagine this, mods with Copy Protection. Actually, you can just look for some of the highest rated Warcraft 3 maps and you'll find a variation of Copy Protection in place. Now imagine Mod Copy Protection on ALL user mods that are sold through Steam.

I'm pretty sure this is what will happen with mods. I think Sandhorse said it better.
------------------------------------

For anyone that's inclined to read more:

I uploaded my save file of a certain single-player game to Cheat Happens several years ago and it's still locked behind a pay wall. I won't say which file it is, but I will say that I uploaded that same file to the game devleoper's website where anyone can download it, for free... Now putting this into context, tell me honestly, would you be angry if you bought a mod from Steam and then realized that you could've gotten the same mod from somewhere on the developer's web site for free?

That save file has been downloaded several thousands of times, I wonder how many people payed money at Cheat Happens, JUST to download that save file. Edited April 22, 2015 by Aedred

[gamer2736]

I completely agree with you, Dark One .... Modding is about fun, friends , community...not money.... Edited April 22, 2015 by gamer2736

[Gawainyeo]

This is going to be a really long (possibly TLDR) opinion, so be warned.

 

An excellent opinion pieces. I agree fully that it will change the modding and gaming communities should this come to the games that Bethesda is known for. Namely believe it is going to split the community between the Cathedral and Parlor schools of thought once again. Cathedral being that modders see the creation of mods being a community-effort, to bring the community closer together and to share. The Parlor on the other hand is a personal showcase of their talent and hard work.

(You can read more about them here:http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html)

 

Talented people who will possibly be drawn into modding through monetary motivation are no doubt going to end up being part of the Parlor school of thought. Building something to be proud of. As some of the others have already pointed out, this would make them unwilling to share resources and advice that would create competition, especially when money gets involved.

 

My hope is that while the community may be split once again, each will be able to flourish independently. The Cathedral school of thought being maintained by awesome sites like The Nexus. The Parlor school of thought making new headway in Steam's Curated Workshop.

 

However, I do think the 25% of revenue to authors is basically regular capitalist exploitation. That's 25% revenue for 100% of the work done. I can see that working for small scale modifications such as skins, but the minute you go into large scale mods that take months, even years to create, Valve will be basically taking a 75% cut for being a distributor. Which in business terms, is ridiculous.

 

Finally, legal issues. Lets say modder A creates a mod with resources from modders B, C, and D after getting their permission. Modders B, C and D agree to the use of their resources if they receive a 5% cut of the profits. Months down the road, modder D believes he should have gotten 10% and decides to revoke his permission. Normally, on Nexus, the file is hidden or removed until this is resolved. When money is involved, this could end up in a DCMA take down, like what happened to Bukkit on the Minecraft modding community late last year. And seeing how screwed the American copyrights legislation is, there will be huge ownership issues.

 

Best we can do is just hope that people will know better than to be exploited for a quick buck and hope Bethesda knows what they're doing.

[raupao]

This wouldn´t work, because the single most obvious and important appeal of mods is that they are free and available to everyone. Remove that, and you´ve just got shitty DLC´s. That, and the fact that we would get a steam greenlight effect, modding sites would be flooded with bullshit from scammers looking to make a quick buck, just like early access, greenlight, and kickstarter.

Even speaking of ideas like these is dangerous, since this would be very profitable for companies, but it would kill things in the long run. Its not a coincidence people are asking for Steam Greenlight to be shut down. You want that to happen to mods?

If this happens, this will cripple modding and almost kill it, when its growing the most.