Armour; Fantasy vs Reality

[Boombro]

I'm all up for realism, but that doesn't mean it good, or pleasing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would like some stuff like the armor of Henry Herbert, but let face it. TES even when they want to lean to be realistic at times, I and many others gamers would just play another game that does it better. I want my armor to have odd glowing effects, to have oddly places skulls or feathers. Also the game has armor made from glass, hearts and other odd stuff.

 

I would say, a realistic looking base with fantasy themed when needed. Like the dawnguard armors.

[Lachdonin]

I was falling sleep when I posted this, so maybe I can clarify... I'm not advocating the nothion that TES needs to be firmly grounded in historical accuracy. It is, after all, an alien world with some very different rules. However, many of its mundane laws are the same as in the real world. Edged weapons cut, arrows pierce, rocks fall when dropped, etc. Most manufacturing process ,are the same to. Leather is tanned than boiled, ores are smelter and refined before being either cast or forged. The physicality follows the same rules, which means things like Hide, Fur and Studded Leather are going to be as entirely pointless for protection in Tamriel as they were in the real world (your have to put so many studs in Leather you might as well just make a brigandine, it would protect you better...)

 

Yes, the world has many exotic materials, but those really just make the point more prominent. When you cam have a dozen variations of Leather, made from Cow Hide, Netch or even Dreugh, why keep entirely functionless fantasy tropes going? Up until recently, D&D only had 6 types of armour, so the variety may have been necessary, but there is no such need in TES.

 

This all comes from a discussion on the Bethesda Forums about equipment, customization, skills and gameplay, and the idea of abandoning the Light-Medium-Heavy mechanic altogether and instead clssing armour based on real world styles, each with certain advantages. Leather would be quieter, mail would protect against arrows (typically its heavily padded) and Plate armours would be expensive, but offer supreme protection at the cost of higher stamina drain (but not mobility, that's another myth..).

 

This was tied into the idea of gear being less varied, but more material based (possibly with ESO's styles system for aesthetic variety). So you could have two Plate Cuirass', one made of iron and one made of Daedric Ebony.

 

Basically, things like Studded Leather and Fur are useless in universe, unnecessary for the sale of variety, and really only persist as part of a fantasy trope... So why keep them?

[Boombro]

I was falling sleep when I posted this, so maybe I can clarify... I'm not advocating the nothion that TES needs to be firmly grounded in historical accuracy. It is, after all, an alien world with some very different rules. However, many of its mundane laws are the same as in the real world. Edged weapons cut, arrows pierce, rocks fall when dropped, etc. Most manufacturing process ,are the same to. Leather is tanned than boiled, ores are smelter and refined before being either cast or forged. The physicality follows the same rules, which means things like Hide, Fur and Studded Leather are going to be as entirely pointless for protection in Tamriel as they were in the real world (your have to put so many studs in Leather you might as well just make a brigandine, it would protect you better...)

 

Yes, the world has many exotic materials, but those really just make the point more prominent. When you cam have a dozen variations of Leather, made from Cow Hide, Netch or even Dreugh, why keep entirely functionless fantasy tropes going? Up until recently, D&D only had 6 types of armour, so the variety may have been necessary, but there is no such need in TES.

 

This all comes from a discussion on the Bethesda Forums about equipment, customization, skills and gameplay, and the idea of abandoning the Light-Medium-Heavy mechanic altogether and instead clssing armour based on real world styles, each with certain advantages. Leather would be quieter, mail would protect against arrows (typically its heavily padded) and Plate armours would be expensive, but offer supreme protection at the cost of higher stamina drain (but not mobility, that's another myth..).

 

This was tied into the idea of gear being less varied, but more material based (possibly with ESO's styles system for aesthetic variety). So you could have two Plate Cuirass', one made of iron and one made of Daedric Ebony.

 

Basically, things like Studded Leather and Fur are useless in universe, unnecessary for the sale of variety, and really only persist as part of a fantasy trope... So why keep them?

I think this is a great idea!

 

Fur and studded are handy for bandits and well, more armors the better for many reasons.

[thompsonar]

I'd be all for dropping armor classes completely and offering some sort of customization for armors. Something like designing your own armor and upgrading as you progress would be awesome. For example you get your basic leather armor at the start and then maybe add an iron, steel, or whatever chestpiece and maybe chainmail sleeves. The possibilities would be about endless, pauldrons, gloves, chest, back, helmet, neck and so forth all with variations from the basic materials. Each piece could have it's pros and cons and weight and whatnot. Throw in a dye process for custom colors. Hell yeah.

 

Not sure how it would work technically, but even a system that offers mild customization would be sufficient at first. Now if you could have the customization and locational damage that's the real deal. Arrows bouncing off when they hit plate part of your armor, maybe one slips through a gap right into your neck. That'd be cool.

[vram1974]

I know you said you're not talking about skimpy vs lore but I don't play a game to be hyper realistic. Yes, it's silly to have armors that don't make sense in the real world but it isn't the real world and not everything has to make sense. Especially when you can carry 100,000 gold in your pocket (although Requiem fixes that).

 

I grew up reading Heavy Metal magazine so I'm attracted to fantasy lore and skimpy armors because it hearkens back to my childhood. Even if you look at AD&D illustrations from back in the day they're all about leather and fur armors and skimpy breast plates for the women. TES is loyal to that kind of gamer.

 

It would be an interesting mod to introduce hyper realistic armors from a certain time period in human history.

[avallanche]

As a personal opinion, I prefer armors that are realistic in the game's world... that means I'm ok with materials that dont really exist as long as they seem functional into the lore of the game... chin, stalhrim, ebony, dragonplate... if its a ingame material that can be crafted into an armor, i'm ok with it as long as it looks functional. On the other hand I really hate those semi-naked armors because that just dont make any sense whatsoever, even on a fantasy game.


About the leather discussion, you have to keep in mind that "armor" is not only for war and not every war is about plated armored knight on horseback. Environment, wild animals, climate. Weapons and armors are adaptations for the surrounded areas and the type of opponent you are up against. It may not seems much compared to plate, but leather armor do have some protection and its what they got at the time. Chain and Plate are relatively new and were restricted to few regions. Different kinds of leather armors do existed and was used extensive over the year in different cultures around the world. You can even look for technics for hardener the leather. Even the whole concept of curved swords like katanas and scimitar... they are curved precisely so they can slash through leather.

Edited March 31, 2015 by avallanche

[Boombro]

As a personal opinion, I prefer armors that are realistic in the game's world... that means I'm ok with materials that dont really exist as long as they seem functional into the lore of the game... chin, stalhrim, ebony, dragonplate... if its a ingame material that can be crafted into an armor, i'm ok with it as long as it looks functional. On the other hand I really hate those semi-naked armors because that just dont make any sense whatsoever, even on a fantasy game.

It will make sense if it done well, In oblivion dlc there is a armor called the Dark Seducer armor that is skimpy and fits the lore. there is something behind it. I guess those types of things make more sense in a hyper-fantasy game.

[Lachdonin]

About the leather discussion, you have to keep in mind that "armor" is not only for war and not every war is about plated armored knight on horseback. Environment, wild animals, climate. Weapons and armors are adaptations for the surrounded areas and the type of opponent you are up against. It may not seems much compared to plate, but leather armor do have some protection and its what they got at the time. Chain and Plate are relatively new and were restricted to few regions. Different kinds of leather armors do existed and was used extensive over the year in different cultures around the world. You can even look for technics for hardener the leather. Even the whole concept of curved swords like katanas and scimitar... they are curved precisely so they can slash through leather.

 

Not talking specifically about Leather armours. Boiled leather armours have a historical precedence, and have seen use from China to Ireland to Mesoamerica.

 

Wearing hides for protection, however, has no historic precedence, and they offer no noteworthy protection against cutting implements or blunt force. They can make you look bigger though... but that only works in early neolithic societies.

 

Studded Leather, on the other hand, has no practical use, offers no advantage over boiled leather, and has no historical significance. the amount of metal you'd need to make it protective would basically just leave you with a Brigandine.

[Moksha8088]

All of this is fictional. Would you rather look at characters in skimpy attire or fully covered. That is your best criteria.

[Lachdonin]

All of this is fictional. Would you rather look at characters in skimpy attire or fully covered. That is your best criteria.

You didn't even read any of this, did you? I've said at least twice that skimpy armour is NOT the topic. The use of totally non-functional types of armours in settings where armour follows all the same fundimental principles as in the real world. It has nothing to do with clevage, and more to do with the technology and logic behind types of armour.

 

And for the record...

 

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/044/6/2/female_armor_by_golentan-d39ic16.jpg

 

I generally find skimpy armour ludicrous, to downright offensive. Which I have made clear elsewhere, and which is part of the reason I stated in the first post that this was NOT about sexy and revealing armour.