Mature Discussion: "Offensive" Mods

[Dark0ne]

I'm just going to copy + paste what I wrote in the staff forum on this subject. When it comes to potential issues of censorship the staff often defer decisions until I have had a say on the matter. I've been pretty busy recently, hence the delay.

 

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I think we have to try and assess the reasoning behind releasing these sorts of mods. Is it just to cause drama? Is it to glorify the actions of the individuals who wore these paraphernalia or is it to add something substantial to the game? I believe I saw one that just put an SS symbol on your pip-boy....why release a mod like that? What possible reason is there to download and use this mod? Do we want to host such material?

 

I have respectfully asked users to remove their work that glorified Nazi actions in the past; most recently it involved the posting of a video of someone role-playing an SS officer in Fallout 3. What reason would you have to make such content public other than "I think it's cool" or "I want to cause drama"? Neither fly with me.

 

I haven't looked much in to this recent spate of Nazi stuff because I haven't had the time, but if this is true:

 

He uses teh Black Sun, a Nazi SS symbol, as his posting ICON.

 

Then it needs to be stamped out immediately. Look at this. That's got troll written all over it.

 

To me the files aren't the biggest issue here; there are reasons why someone might want an SS uniform (maybe putting them on other characters that makes shooting them all the more appealing?) but the very fact he's using Nazi symbolism as his avatar is offensive. There's no reason why he'd have that as his avatar unless (1) he likes/wants/is a Nazi or (2) he wants to troll us.

 

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We take censoring content seriously because we're all old enough to know that "where you draw the line" is a constant ethical dilemma. Where I draw the line is in the reasoning behind releasing the mods. A mod, for example, that makes Caesars legion troops wear Nazi outfits would make sense to me, I would enjoy shooting them with my NCR character but there's no doubt that such a mod would cause drama in the community because, zomg, you can join and help the Caesars legion!!!(111)!!! With a mod like this I'd tell the people complaining to get a backbone and leave it alone.

 

The SS outfits that were released recently have caused a big stink (lots of people reporting them) and by themselves I don't see a big problem with them. You don't have to wear them; you could put them on other characters, you can modify them yourself to remove the SS symbols because you simply like the undercoat. Unfortunately the reasoning behind the releases is lost when the actual person releasing them is clearly idolising the Nazi's by having Nazi symbolism and/or quotes as their avatar and in their signatures (or in what they say). I wouldn't allow a known Nazi in to my home just as I wouldn't allow a known member of the KKK in to my home so why would I allow them on my sites?

 

Mods have more uses than those simply stated on the tin but it's hard to defend them when the people releasing them are clearly doing it for bad reasons.

[Paxan_1]

Hi Dark0ne,

 

i agree with the way you think in that.

But i would like to mention that the nazi symbols cause "other" problems. Here in Germany it is forbidden by law to show them. With the mods there isn't a problem, the problem is caused by the public imageshare.

If i had a look into it and got them on my screen at work..., i'm glad nobody was around. :confused:

 

Thank you,

Paxan

[dieangel68]

This game is played by many peoples, from different origins, with different beliefs.

 

As far as i am concerned the only mods i complain about is those that simply f*** up the game balance. If someone wants to make a mod that adds controversial stuffs, i could care less, sometimes controversial is fun!

 

Some peoples identify the NCR as an US army equivalent and can't stand the idea of having womens on active duty, frankly whatever floats their boat, i'm not going to play with it but i sure as hell am not going to throw a tantrum about how good or bad it is.

[micropirate]

I think the themes in the fallout games are full of things that reflect the darker side of human nature. There are people who play evil characters (not my bag), but some people just need an escape and I guess this fills the void for them. I think the inclusion of Nazi uniforms as a mod is totally within the scope of game expansion. The Nazis were very much into the practices of Caesar's army's and I could totally tie a neo-nazi storyline into FONV. Nazis make good villains. The question becomes where does one draw the line. No one would stand up and create a uproar of a game mod based on you totally becoming part of or for that matter the leader of The Legion. The Romans killed and tortured way more people than than the Nazis. I am not defending Nazism in the least, but do you ban people for having a Caesar or Legion avatar? I am not saying you should or you shouldn't. It is your board and you do with as you see best. I had this debate amongst some friends yesterday. The main comment was about the sensitivity of the subject's to Jews. I understand, but I am a Catholic, should I have not the same hatred for Romans as the Jews for Nazis. After all the Romans tortured and killed my Lord and Saviour. Should I cry out every time someone makes a mod in support of The Legion?

 

Personally if it were up to me you couldn't play a character more evil than neutral karma, but I would dredge up all types of vile evil enemies to take on. This is a tough call, but I recommend whatever action you take should be universal and made part of the TOS otherwise you get down to semantics like, "Well you can play as Hitler, but not as the devil" or "You can have a Ted Bundy avatar, but not a Charles Manson avatar". I guess we just let the Overseer decide what is best for us.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Quetzlsacatanango]

You should just remember that this group of sites is owned by a private individual. Your free speech rights do not apply. If you look at him wrong, you can get banned, it is his prerogative. So just don't go out of your way to post something he won't like, or else go start your own site full of misguided mods. There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

[scruples]

@micropirate, Your comparison between nazi's and romans is asymmetrical.

The holocaust was less than 100 years ago, and involved a lot of firsthand experience of nazi cruelty to say the least.

People are still alive today who have been traumatized by it.

 

The Roman leaders (just the leaders) were trying to protect themselves from what they (rightfully) perceived as a threat.

So they killed one man....over 1000 years ago and anyone else who suffered died long since.

It really shouldn't offend anyone, with the exception of Mel Gibson.

(You yourself said you weren't offended)

 

Zombie Jesus awakes the next day anyway, and without his intentional sacrifice he would not have been your "Savior".

 

Common sense

 

Nazi-Offensive

Taliban-Offensive

African warlord-Offensive

 

Ghengis Khan-Not Offensive (killed way more people)

Alexander the Great-Not Offensive (but super gay based on the movie I seen :confused:)

 

A great deal of this depends on how the character is integrated and portrayed.

 

I am sure a mod where jesus is crucified in a lighthearted or hateful fashion to the benny hill soundtrack wont last very long without being bombarded with complaints.

But something where it is historically accurate and Jesus is painted favorably while very sad music laments his sacrifice would probably do much better (still gonna get complaints).

[someguynamedjoe]

In all fairness, many of the "Hot Coffee" mods ("Animated Prostitution" comes to mind) also include options for homosexuality, and 'femdom' if you're a female player. I wouldn't say that it objectifies women specifically, but that it objectifies sex in general, which makes perfect sense in a lawless, post-apocalyptic society, just as it did in the wild west. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a mod that allows an actual romantic relationship with Cass or Veronica, but I'll hold my tongue.

 

I do agree, however, that the Army Men mod and the people demanding people mod Veronica or Arcade to not be bisexual and/or gay are rather offensive. For one thing, considering how Veronica can flirt with a male Courier, she's likely bisexual (which is becoming increasingly common IRL in women her age). As for Arcade? Come on, the guy's funny and a very useful companion. Him being a homosexual doesn't make him any less effective of a companion.

 

Also, Deutschland making SS uniforms shouldn't automatically make him a Nazi (though, granted, his posting in the forums makes this a moot point). Calling Deutschland a Nazi just for making those outfits would be akin, in my opinion, to accusing the people who made Soviet uniforms in FO3 and the Spetznaz armor in FONV of being closet Communists IRL, which, as we all know, is ridiculous. So, I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to invoke Godwin's law on this one.

[durklives]

You should just remember that this group of sites is owned by a private individual. Your free speech rights do not apply. If you look at him wrong, you can get banned, it is his prerogative. So just don't go out of your way to post something he won't like, or else go start your own site full of misguided mods. There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

 

Clear admission of tyranny, no respect for others opinions if they conflict with your own.

Edited December 14, 2010 by durklives

[Dark0ne]

Clear admission of tyranny, no respect for others opinions if they conflict with your own.

 

Yeah, the owner is a douche. We should be allowed to do and say anything we want without repercussion on someone else's site that we don't support in any way, shape or form. Seriously; why should someone be allowed to decide what he does and doesn't want on his site just because he created the site, pays the bills and supports the community.

 

Power to the people! Fight the machine!

[Marthos]

Clear admission of tyranny, no respect for others opinions if they conflict with your own.

 

Yeah, the owner is a douche. We should be allowed to do and say anything we want without repercussion on someone else's site that we don't support in any way, shape or form. Seriously; why should someone be allowed to decide what he does and doesn't want on his site just because he created the site, pays the bills and supports the community.

 

Power to the people! Fight the machine!

 

 

The owner isn't a douche, he appears to me to be a very innovative and bright young chap with decent moral standards that has acheived more in his few short years than many will acheive in their lifetimes, not to mention creating the best damn gaming resource on the web.

 

Don't give them the satisfaction of winding you up Robin.

 

 

My take on the Nazi thing:

 

No place for it at all in any area of modern day society, much less on a gaming website, millions of dead Jews and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of servicemen and women and grieving mums and dads and sons and daughters whos lives would have been completely different if it weren't for World War 2 will agree with me.

 

 

Let us not in ignorance forget the price of Nazism.