Mature Discussion: "Offensive" Mods

[FatherAzerun]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for generally being civil -- I truly just wanted an open discussion and forum, not because I was particularly in a rage about something, but I found myself a bit bothered and thoughtful and wanted to initiate a discussion. As I said, I am an educator (and specifically a Professor of History) and, for full disclosure, I used to be a game reviewer, so the discussion of games, "offensiveness", and so on intrigues me greatly.

 

I do want to clarify a point though: I wanted to separate out my own emotional reaction to certain mods versus the principle of whether or not a mod should be allowed to remain posted.

 

I personally found the two MODS I mentioned (Army Men and the SS Uniform mods) to be not to my taste. So emotionally, I have no interest in them.

 

As for whether or not the MODs should exist: In the Army men case, I felt the MOD reflected a poor interpretation but I fully support the author's right to make that interpretation.* (footnote below) If you feel the NCR should be misogynistic, and that is your view of Fallout, have at. My only problem was the suggestion the mod was not misogynistic -- even the author used the phrase chauvinistic. My other problem was seeing the virulent misogynistic and anti-gay comments spawned by people attracted to the mod. I was not "Offended" by the mod, but I sure was saddened and offended by the people who chose to utilize the basis of a mod to make effectively real-life expressions of homophobia or comments against women.

 

As for the SS Uniforms, as I said in my previous post and in agreement with the site moderator, anything that is attempting to troll or provoke or engage in glorification of the Nazis seems simply dubious to me. I was not sure if I would have banned teh posting of such a MOD -- as people noted it could be used for an NPC, a gang, even a retake on Caesar's Legion -- but my concern was with his SS Avatar symbol and his pretense that "Don't criticize me it is just a MOD" but that the mod was really just intended for players to be able to play as Nazis -- well, that seemed uncomfortable. Would I have banned it? I don't know, but I certainly felt it was a different and more dubious situation than Army men, which is clearly allowable and just a matter of taste (again, in my assessment).

 

As for animated prostitution and the naked mods -- hell, I'd probably download them if I didn't feel like the work of making sure they didn't cause all sorts of custom armour clipping problems. So yeah, I probably would have a more pervy FO: NV experience if it weren't for the fact I am lazy!

 

And yes, many of those offer male-male as well as male-female and female-female sex bits. (Except for the working girl mod, but while I would prefer a modder to give both men and women equal chances to play at a role, the time consumption to make separate animations and quest items would be very difficult.)

 

 

Killing children mods again seem uncomfortable but I support their right to exist. of course, since the game has a karma system and we generally see the killing of "innocents" as far worse, I would suspect that the murder of children should have a greater karmic impact than killing adults -- but that would again be my choice. I haven't downloaded or been interested in the mod, so I can't speak to it. (One of the reasons I like the New vegas Bounties mod is that is has a really nice horror element in the missing children quest; I won't say more to avoid any spoilers.)

 

 

Anyway, so my long-winded diatribe aside:

 

1. Generally outside of something truly truly awful (like sex with children) I generally felt that MODs themselves should stay. (And, notably, stupid court rulings (which I disagree with) have seemed to suggest that even animated or cartoon representations of child molestation are the same as child porn -- which they are not, but that's a different discussion -- as happened in the case of the guys in the US and Australia who were arrested and convicted for having cartoons of the Simpons kids having sex -- make this a possible legal liability issue as well.

 

2. However, if the INTENT of the modder seemed to glorify hate groups, etc, as indicated by making things for the Courier that made the Courier Nazi or KK or whatever, I must admit I would at least wish teh resource could be utilized for NPCs rather than be mostly for teh Courier character. (And it isn't as if the Courier can't be awful -- after all, we have cannibalism perks!)

 

3. More disturbing was how some of these mods draw upon the ugly side of downloaders, making them feel that it is acceptabel to make racist, homophobic, or misogynistic commentary. And I only gently suggest that through teh use of teh rputation tool that we differentiate between those people who make mods to make teh world darker, evil, misogynistic, or whatever (in my mind acceptable if maybe not always my cup of tea) versus those who utilize the launch of such MODs as a platform to express real-life issues with people not like them (in my mind, something that should eb actively discouraged -- while maybe not bannable, certainly someone should take a reputation hit for trolling).

 

 

Thanks again for a very mature discussion! I had to admit trepidation before posting, but I am glad ot see an adult community be -- shockingly -- adult and mature.

How sad that sometimes online forums make us have such low expectations!

 

 

* The idea that women are less capable fighters is dubious in reference to real life data -- just ask any female Mossad Agent! The differences most often cited involve differences in upper body strength, but in an increasingly mechanized world, the idea that women are less capable at bomb disposal or detection, tank handling, rangefinding, scouting, drone piloting, or a thousand other tasks seems more based on extraordinarily outmoded views.

[durklives]

The owner isn't a douche, he appears to me to be a very innovative and bright young chap with decent moral standards that has acheived more in his few short years than many will acheive in their lifetimes, not to mention creating the best damn gaming resource on the web.

 

Wow this is probably the biggest example of brown nosery I have ever seen on this forum. And that is saying a lot.

 

Looks like someone is looking to make moderator this year.

 

* The idea that women are less capable fighters is dubious in reference to real life data -- just ask any female Mossad Agent! The differences most often cited involve differences in upper body strength, but in an increasingly mechanized world, the idea that women are less capable at bomb disposal or detection, tank handling, rangefinding, scouting, drone piloting, or a thousand other tasks seems more based on extraordinarily outmoded views.

 

How many Mossad agents do you know? I didn't know Mossad were battlefield soldiers, I thought they were squirriely little assassins with no honor.

Edited December 14, 2010 by durklives

[yoba333]

Honestly, I can see where people are coming from with these mods. Certain cultures for example place women at a lower standard than men, and if someone from one of those cultures was playing New Vegas then maybe they would want their game to reflect that.

Because that's what mods do for me, they allow me to change the game and make it reflect whatever I want. Not saying I do, but if I wanted to become a Nazi in New Vegas, who's to say I can't?

Because New Vegas is a GAME. It's not real life, it's not going to matter 5 years from now whether or not I was good or evil on Fallout :New Vegas.

See, games provide us with a way to escape. and if you want to escape into a post-apocalyptic Neo-Nazi universe then who's to say you can't do that?

My main point is this: Live and Let Live. For those who want to download Nazi mods or misogynistic mods, they should be able to. It may reflect their culture and make the game more enjoyable as a whole. And that's all I try to do as a modder, to make the game more fun and enjoyable. I know its hard to "live and let live" but come on. This is 2010, we are past what the Romans did to us and past what Hitler did to us. I seriously doubt that anyone playing this game right now had to deal with Nazis hunting them down and sending them to concentration camps. I mean, honestly, to those who say the SS mods are bad, why?

Can't those who want those things be left alone?

Can't you just exit the page peacefully and choose not to download those mods?

If you are so affected by Hitler now, in 2010, then why are you playing a game which involves killing people?

I feel like I'm rambling on, but honestly, just let people be who they are. It would make the world a better place.

[chucksteel]

First, fatherAzerun already said he was a professor of history and, I'm sure he is much more of an expert than me. (Only being a history buff) Women have played vital roles in conflicts going back to the American Revolution, world war 2 and, probably well before these points. I'm not saying as just "Rosie the Riveters" type figures! There were women who disguised themselves as men to serve in Artillery Brigade's during the American revolution, (many of whom received honers until they were discovered to be Women!) In WWII there were many women who fought on the front lines as equals to there mail counterparts. The Soviets fielded women snipers in "Stalingrad", other completely female units of Fighter pilots, Dive bombers! We won't even get into the countless women who served in the various resistance movements throughout Europe and Asia!

 

 

 

 

If you don't think a women could hold her own under fire, then you ether have a massive ego or, have never met a real woman.

 

 

 

 

chuck

 

 

 

 

If, you need some refs, I will post links of true information, not your shallow view, I will. Even the Nazi's had strong women leaders, soldiers!

 

 

 

 

(no offense again I'm not trying to touch that subject. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/teehee.gif)

[Kroljas]

It's one thing to make a controversial mod for yourself and play and enjoy it on your own, it's quite another thing to post it up and throw it in people's faces and want them to accept it.

 

There's also a difference between Tolerance and Acceptance. I can tolerate a -lot- of things I don't approve of, but I don't accept any of it.

 

Just some food for thought.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Kroljas

[scruples]

Honestly, I can see where people are coming from with these mods. Certain cultures for example place women at a lower standard than men, and if someone from one of those cultures was playing New Vegas then maybe they would want their game to reflect that.Because that's what mods do for me, they allow me to change the game and make it reflect whatever I want. Not saying I do, but if I wanted to become a Nazi in New Vegas, who's to say I can't?Because New Vegas is a GAME. It's not real life, it's not going to matter 5 years from now whether or not I was good or evil on Fallout :New Vegas.See, games provide us with a way to escape. and if you want to escape into a post-apocalyptic Neo-Nazi universe then who's to say you can't do that?My main point is this: Live and Let Live. For those who want to download Nazi mods or misogynistic mods, they should be able to. It may reflect their culture and make the game more enjoyable as a whole. And that's all I try to do as a modder, to make the game more fun and enjoyable. I know its hard to "live and let live" but come on. This is 2010, we are past what the Romans did to us and past what Hitler did to us. I seriously doubt that anyone playing this game right now had to deal with Nazis hunting them down and sending them to concentration camps. I mean, honestly, to those who say the SS mods are bad, why?Can't those who want those things be left alone?Can't you just exit the page peacefully and choose not to download those mods?If you are so affected by Hitler now, in 2010, then why are you playing a game which involves killing people?I feel like I'm rambling on, but honestly, just let people be who they are. It would make the world a better place.

 

Ok, where to start "It's just a game", this is impractical as any sort of argument.

Videogames can, and will offend people. Fine, create your barbaric backwards ass mods, but keep that to yourself.

Taking something hateful or flagrantly barbaric and posting it on the internet will only propagate the ideas that this s*** is ok, when it is not.

 

Lets apply this same type of thinking to allowing child prostitution in the game.

Think about it, it doesn't hurt anyone, the children are all virtual, it may offend but its not like someone is forcing you to download it.

Victimless right?.

 

Whether or not something is part of someones "Culture" doesn't make it any less barbaric.

And before you say anything like "Oh, but pedophilia isn't part of anyone's culture"

Muhammad, consummated his marriage with his wife when she was 9.

In South Africa exists an old and accepted sex trade, So accepted it is widely considered part of their culture. girls as young as 12 can be legally wed.

 

Here is my favorite part,

just let people be who they are. It would make the world a better place.

[Kroljas]

 

Whether or not something is part of someones "Culture" doesn't make it any less barbaric.

And before you say anything like "Oh, but pedophilia isn't part of anyone's culture"

Muhammad, consummated his marriage with his wife when she was 9.

 

 

Actually, it was when she was 6. Oddly enough, those three years of age make it even worse.

 

Edit: Nevermind, just looked it up, she got married at 9. Lol, my attempt at being a know-it-all fails.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Kroljas

[bivar]

If I see a mod that offends me then I just don't download it and I do find a lot of mods offensive - although for me it's more along the lines of nuclear pistols and/or combat knives that do 200 plus hit points damage. The Dark One provides a resource for those that enjoy the TES/Fallout series of games and for the incredible modding community that make these games worth playing again and again.

 

All that said, from what I gather it's The Dark One's private website - he owns it, runs it, pays for it and puts up with (I imagine) tons of complaints every day. All of which I'm sure contribute to the joys of ownership - ergo, he gets to make the rules. And those of you that have used this website for any length of time know that the rules are far from overly restrictive. Do I recall an OB mod adding nude tranny bandits dual wielding zweihanders? Well, maybe not the zweihander part -

but that's not exactly what I would call tyrannical.

 

Power to the people! Fight the machine! .45-70 the only gummint you can trust! All laudable and immutable trueisms, but when you combine the Black Sun (which means a lot of different things to a lot of different people) with SS runes and present it in a Nazi context you've pretty much hoisted your colours - Nazi occult. I put together a mod for someone that ran around shooting bad guys in the head, but didn't like decapitation and/or head explosions - scratching my head all they way I

did it though. Go figure! But apparently that was how he wanted to play the game, so...

 

Not to make light of the discussion so far, but if the owner decides that he doesn't like Deathclaw's in pink tutus (sp?) then you will just have to find a different avatar or a different venue to post your mod. Although for the life of me I can't think of a single reason why that would be abhorrent, but you never know...

 

Like Kroljas said I can tolerate a lot of different things, many of which are unacceptable to me. But therein lies the beauty of mods - I can pick and choose, thereby creating my own reality or fantasy. With regard to women - well I served with, supervised and managed lots of them. The only thing I cared about was could they do the job - if yes I put them to work; if not I sent them back to personnel with their male counterparts. YMMV - some of my NCO friends had a totally different

experience from mine.

 

Just my 2.5 cents, 1.1 after tax. I have begun to ramble so my few remaining brain cells are at Max-Q. Feel free to ignore at will.

[FatherAzerun]

 

* The idea that women are less capable fighters is dubious in reference to real life data -- just ask any female Mossad Agent! The differences most often cited involve differences in upper body strength, but in an increasingly mechanized world, the idea that women are less capable at bomb disposal or detection, tank handling, rangefinding, scouting, drone piloting, or a thousand other tasks seems more based on extraordinarily outmoded views.

 

How many Mossad agents do you know? I didn't know Mossad were battlefield soldiers, I thought they were squirriely little assassins with no honor.

 

Fair enough; I was using an example of an intelligence agent because Mossad agents are often seen as rather -- erm -- "hardcore." However, the Israeli army (IDF) has previously allowed women in combat roles; ironically they had greater front-line exposure during the fights against Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto and in the Arab-Israeli war.

 

I do not personally know any Mossad agents. Nor any NCR troops.

 

============================================

 

Yoba:

 

If you will reread my message I said I started this thread simply as a discussion -- not as an advocacy to ban people or remove mods. I simply noted I was conflicted because the rise of a number of Neo-Nazi mods struck me as uncomfortable. Since the MOD page is not a discussion forum to discuss "appropriateness" of content -- rather, they are meant to give feedback for technical aspects of a MOD, possible conflicts and suggestions for expansion, I felt it appropriate to move an open discussion here.

 

I DON'T suggest banning players for posting such MODs. I DON'T suggest even banning the MODs. but I do feel it is appropriate to say: You know what, I think this player is using the MOD forum as a type of advocacy for Neo-Nazism, and I find that uncomfortable and would suggest people not downloading or endorsing the MOD in its current form.

 

Same thing with Army men: I think the author has EVERY RIGHT to make such a MOD, I have no problem with him envisioning an uglier NCR, and I don't even suggest that the author himself is misogynist (unlike the author of the SS mod who was pretty clear he was being a Nazi advocate) -- the Army men author simply envisions that the NCR would be different in its attitude towards women and made a mod to adpat to that. WHAT I DID SUGGEST was that the types of comments that followed in that thread -- homophobic and misogynistic comments -- should NOT be encouraged because they move away from altering the game world to advocating a point of view in the "real world" that would be specifically targeted towards some people who create or download these mods.

 

Considering how quickly people are to argue nuances of whether or not a MOD would "fit Lore" or whether or not something is "Proper (gun, falling damage, etc) physics" (take your pick), I did not think it entirely inappropriate to discuss -- and get a feel for -- how people felt about certain types of content, since clearly people were reacting badly and commenting on those specific mods interms of content.

[Ez0n3]

I don't understand. How hard is it to not download something or to not look at something?