sovs Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644, #24570059, #24570684, #24570944, #24571509, #24571604, #24572384, #24582389, #24582414, #24582584, #24582599, #24582694, #24582734, #24582839, #24582924, #24582949, #24583354, #24583399, #24583779, #24583954, #24616474, #24616934, #24617369 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Brumbek wrote: Quote Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people. Quote athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality. Quote Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community. Quote heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well. Quote 1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro. This is a game changer. Quote A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it. Quote boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens Quote ambria wrote: @ 1erCru That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there Quote Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating. Quote Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business. Quote SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds? Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.But it doesn't make it any less true. Quote EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod. Quote 1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.Free modding is dead. Quote IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only Quote Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*! is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided. Quote Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO! Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...sigh Quote 1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much. Greed never loses Quote icecreamassassin wrote: @BrumbekI too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider Quote HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS. Quote ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see Quote ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it. Quote antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*! I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam. Quote iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity. It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!Seems like a nightmare situation to me. Quote jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now! Quote mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho Quote Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.@icecreamassassin: point taken.Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality? Quote mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too. Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it. And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.That's my oppinion. Quote Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer... Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion. In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4. Quote Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going. Quote Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....that being said instant gratification is rather nice Quote icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about. Quote SpyderArachnid wrote: While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do. Quote FishBiter wrote: It amazes me that the focus here is on how greedy the modders are... rather than how modders are being tricked into letting themselves and their work be exploited for someone else's gain. Quote NoDebate wrote: Okay, my Chrome crashed and I lost some of my DOOM WALL OF TEXT but, I am typing feverishly (no I'm not actually sweating, that'd be grody) as we speak. DOOM WALL OF TEXT IS COMING. Quote Solongchu wrote: I agree with FishBiter if the modders were getting the 75% and not Steam I would consider paying for mods like SMIM.The way they have it set up the modders dont really get anything for their hard work and like others have said alot of these mods depend on resources that are not theirs and wont work without them.I really wonder what the skse team think about this. Quote Aerial_ace wrote: For a mod like yours i would have no issue with paying some money, its just when some one go $2 for some crappy sword or armor, no Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, without going into great detail, though I presume one could find volumes on the subject, the Elder Scrolls used to exist as something of a 'niche' RPG. Overtime, as all good things do, the Elder Scrolls series continued to gather popularity and support, booming with Oblivion. Skyrim launched the Elder Scrolls somewhere into the stratosphere, where everyone and their grandmamas (that's grandmothers) were playing, talking about, or otherwise experiencing Skyrim. Now, regarding those volumes, we of the longtime veterans have noticed a trend (and yelled at each other about it in great excess) in the Elder Scrolls series. A move from buggy cRPG to buggy AAA title. Skyrim, now the gold-standard for open-world 'RPGs' (I would argue that one cannot have an RPG without classes or stats - a debate for another time) is once again trying to push the market in a particular direction, to redefine what it means to be a modder.Now, this is where you stop me. Hey! Debate! What about CS:GO? Dota 2? TF 2!? Those are the real innovators, they started hat market choo-choo train, that's really what got this rolling, right? In part, yes. I suspect Valve was motivated by the rampant success of user generated content within their own sphere of games. Heck, I've easily spent 300 bucks on Dota 2 cosmetics. The model works. Why? It's quick, easy, simple. Cosmetics have no game impact, can be mass produced, and be shown off. They're symbols of status, antiques, and currency. Points worth making so long as we are here. Genuine Timebreaker? Price inflated thanks to supply and demand. Consequence of not owning a Timebreaker? Minus five points for Gryffindor? Otherwise, nothing. What's in a Chroma Case? An 'Exceedingly Rare Special Item!' Will my CS:GO experience be drastically different if I do not own a Chroma Case? One could argue yes, I will suffice with a firm 'no.' So, we've established that user generated content has existed in a fashion that has little to no impact on the individual user experience. Let's bounce around a bit.Back to Bethesda! So how are we redefining what it means to be a modder? Isn't SMIM just another form of cosmetic bundled together in a neat little package? Yes and yes. Are we radically changing Skyrim by having not having SMIM installed? I'm obsessive compulsive so, yes. In reality, no. Skyrim is not a new game with SMIM installed [though sometimes it feels like it :(]. Morrowind Rebirth, Fallout Wanderer's Edition, New Vegas Enhanced Content, Project Nevada, Requiem, SkyRE - these are all total overhauls. Someone looking for a particular kind of experience, often goes to these types of "gameplay overhaul" mods to do so. Why does the player seek out these experiences? Because Bethesda has failed to provide the appropriate experience in the vanilla game. It's the consequence of success. In the process of becoming the "gold standard" Bethesda is forced to make difficult design decisions in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Systems get scrapped as "too spreadsheety" or "difficult to implement" or "detrimental to the new player experience." These "gameplay overhaul" mods provide the player with something the core game does not. The ability to customize or redefine the core experience to something more desirable. Now do note, I am not suggesting any of the aforementioned mods currently cost money. In fact, none of them do (to my knowledge). However, what happens when similar "gameplay overhauls" are only available at cost? When all the work and talent goes to developing the next "gameplay overhaul" available for Fallout 4? At say (arbitrary price, for the sake of even math), 16 bucks? Wait a second... Didn't I just pay 60 for this game? Why should I have to pay a modder 4 bucks and Bethesda 12 bucks for something that should be in Fallout 4 to begin with? Can't you expand my choice of available options in the vanilla game? What happened to the class system in Skyrim? Is it accessibility or cutting corners? Is there anything in Fallout 4 that can be snipped off, shoveling the workload on to modders, who then in turn give 75% of their proceeds to a pair of companies that invest nothing in the project?Let's try the previous exercise again, with a different twist. Tamriel Rebuilt, A World of Pain, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth - these are all significant content mods. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of hours combined. These hours include new areas/zones, NPCs, enemies, quests, weapons - the stuff of expansions. What happens if these user generated expansion packs become the only sellers on the Steam Workshop? With only 25% of the profits going to the people who made these expansions? Where's the pressure for Bethesda to create their own expansion packs? Why not just turn all their DLC into followers and cosmetics? Houses and quests (sold as mini-adventures of course)? Think of this in terms of simple efficiency. If you're expending say (arbitrary number incoming) 100,000 man hours, 100 guys working at 1,000 hours each, to drop the next big expansion for Fallout 4 while a team of modders can do the same work, without the benefit of salaries, wouldn't you just opt to let the modders do the work? You can focus your efforts on the next big release, new IPs, new sources of revenue. As the saying goes, "build it so the modders can fix it."Now, granted, this is all doomsday type stuff. Fire in the skies (smoke on the water). I could very easily argue against what I have just suggested. That stuff up there sounds like utter nonsense. Of course Bethesda isn't going to abandon their expansion packs, churn out fresh IPs, and outsource their work to modders. Right? But, do we want to risk the potential outcome? What happens if the worst does come to pass? I certainly don't want to see that happen. Now, I very well know SMIM will not cause the MODDING APOCALYPSE. Charging two bucks (or any number of bucks) for the content you have created is your right and is reasonable. However, can't modders take a second and say, "Hey! If you see enough value in the modding market to suggest a paid scheme, can I get a fair share?" Aren't Valve and Bethesda turning enough profit by investing near-to-nothing in the mods they host on the Workshop? Most consumers are reacting negatively because they like free stuff. I like free stuff. You could call that entitlement, sure. I call it simple caution. We won't know how far off Fallout 4 is until after June 14th (or whatever the reveal date is). Is it in our best interests, as both mod consumers and mod creators, to jump in feet first and not consider the potential consequences? Do we want to solidify the Bethesda Mod Market on a game that is almost four years old?Anyway, I could ramble for ages. I rarely get out and type this much on... Anywhere. Y'all feel free to pick it apart as you please. I'm going to go dig up some Ancient Dagoth Brandy and imagine what the MODDING APOCALYPSE will be like. However, I will leave you all with a quote I find... Appropriate. Let's not allow Bethesda to get so caught up in making money, that they forget what makes this community worthwhile."Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren't with the Dunmer people." -Adril Arano, on House Hlaalu. Quote Brumbek wrote: @icecreamassassin: interesting point about people copying other's work. That's the thing about SMIM though, ain't nobody insane enough to copy it. It is too grueling. So in a sense I can see the Valve system working...only the best mods will consistently sell. This assumes Valve has a proper way of sorting and ranking paid mods, which is unclear. But yes, the easy nonsense mods will overrun the SW with imitations galore. Again, I fear the truly quality mods will be lost. Anyway, I still am torn...but never fear, all this has caused me to update SMIM to 1.75 finally. I will always, ALWAYS put the latest and greatest versions of SMIM on Skyrim Nexus. Withholding updates is diabolical. So in this sense, all us Nexus users never need to fear the SW. SMIM's true home is the Nexus, and I believe sincere and honest modders will gravitate to the Nexus, even if we allow SW to be a pay option for SW users. Quote Elegost75 wrote: So your internal dispute is if you should upload on SW but keep it on Nexus for free?If so, just do it. Quote Ramon1 wrote: I don't think it's greedy to ask money for your work, I just hope that the Nexus can devise a way to help with this, so you don't have to give a Valve/Bethesda a dime for your work. The best suggestion I've seen is some sort of ad based partnership, no idea how can they encourage people to donate more also, but I hope they can find a middle ground for non-greedy modders like you and also to keep the mod scene open and free, they way it has always been. Quote marthgun wrote: I REFUSE to allow you (i will hunt you down) to get sucked into the shekel shoah that is steam.Pandora's box has been opened. The skids have to be greased for modders to make money, we should accept that reality. But no way should you sell yourself short by allowing valve to steal from you.25% is absolutely unacceptable. The fire rises. It will burn this thing to the ground. we need a rebuild initiative. Do not go to the dark side until the rebuild commences. the more high quality artists make the move now, the harder it will be to get an acceptable compensation. Quote GenBloodhorn wrote: So does that mean youre not joining the dark side? Quote Blitz54 wrote: In my opinion Brumbek, I feel that you could put SMIM on the Workshop for a price. I don't know what price, but considering some armor are 2 dollars by themselves, it makes you wonder how much you technically "could" charge.But I say this because you said you'd continue to update nexus to the latest version always. The way I see it, the mod is free, and it's accessible on a great site, easy to find. If someone is willing to pay whatever the price is on the Workshop, that's fine too. I say why shouldn't you (an author of a mod in nearly all Skyrim installs) not make money off of the "not so smart" people that only use the workshop for mods?But beware, comments on SMIM will still be spammed by upset people who think that wanting money for something they use is greedy. So I suggest waiting for a while to see how this whole workshop thing goes down. Quote Maruun wrote: Is Steam/Valve wanted to "support modders, they would add a donation button to any mod that is being uploaded to steam works.Right now not modders monetise their work, its simple Valve that will monetize your mods and throwing you a bone as thanks for your hard work. Quote mkess wrote: That's exactly that I thought, too. If they sell their mods, and use SKSE, BOSS. TESEDIT, Wrye bash, MCM, SKY UI, and all the other tools and mods, they, or better steam, has to PAY for them in the future. For every single use!These tools ar for non-comercial use only. If they try to make money using them, it's only logical, that they have to pay the authors.If they change the game, they have to change the payment for them as well. If I were the author of one of these tools, my lawyer would be busy now writing to steam, to congratulate them for this nice idea. ... And naming a price for the use of my tool. Plus naming an additional price for using the tool without permission. Quote Farvahar wrote: It's not you, it's not the users. It's the corporate suits. I af modder wants to try his luck with a 5 dollar mod (when AAA titles are available for less on Steam and often for free), by all means. But the bulk of the money should go to the modder. What I am seeing is exploitation and unethical business practices. Quote Jsmorris14 wrote: Don't know if anybody seen this? SKSE team on this subject.http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/page-3#entry23943101 Quote truehardlol wrote: Hey moderators and modders, do u ever thought of creating foundation system like Patreon, where content creators will put goal of $ for certain mod or mod update. I think this is more fairy system than that 75% greedy cut. Why should people pay valve/bethesda for things they didn't create? Quote NamelessTed wrote: I have always used SMIM when playing Skyrim and would probably find it worth some amount of money, especially if it meant more/better content. I paid for a lifetime Nexus membership because I use it a lot and it was worth it and haven't regretted it.One thing people need to realize is that it will be a dynamic economy. People might try to overcharge early on but the community will eventually decide what is worth $1, 5, 10, etc. Anybody who is upset over the option to pay content creators for their content is insane. Of course the mod authors can choose to give their content away for free if they choose to, or they can ask for $1. There are over 2 million unique downloads for SMIM, if 5% of those people decided it would be worth $1, at 25% that is $25,000. Valve paid out over $10 million last year from TF2 and DOTA2 user created content. If people like you could suddenly support themselves modding a game image how much better and how much more you could be doing.It is incredibly short sighted for all these people to complain about the option to pay for content. People also need to realize that this system is going to evolve over time. They talk a lot about how paid content changes balance in their games (negative or positive externalities) and they have made plenty of changes over time already. Quote dreamer2008 wrote: 2$ on SMIM, 2$ on another mod, then another... And we reach 50-100$ only on what we have installed right now. I appreciate your work Brumbek, but please consider at least leaving your current work on Nexus, and if you want to update your mod for the money, then upload the updated version on Steam. Edit: After reading your replies on this discussion, I saw that you will upload the updates on Nexus. Thank you very much! I am afraid that not all mod developers will be like you though :( Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks much to all for the thoughts! I'm withholding using SW for now. I want a Mod Greenlight system that recognizes ESTABLISHED mods like SMIM. But that probably will never happen. Sigh...we'll see. Thanks.@marthgun: 25% is crazy low. The split should be the other way around since Valve/Bethesda already make HUGE sums from the sale of the games themselves. That is chiefly why I haven’t uploaded SMIM to SW. It does feel like they are taking big advantage of me, unlike Dark0ne who isn’t some uber-rich guy and lets me keep all my donation money.@Blitz54: waiting is a wise move. I plan to wait, despite the feeling that I’m the dumb one for not jumping in and laughing as crazy people pay me money…which I only get 25% off. I just don’t like being extorted or extorting others…which SW sort of feels like ATM.@Farvahar: well said.@dreamer2008: yes, it is the bad apples that spoil it for us. I will never hide SMIM updates behind paywalls. Even if it would possibly bring in more income for the small price of my soul, ha! Quote Xtyfe00 wrote: Well done Brumbek, you should be the example for all to follow during this time. You have my respect for this. Quote foster xbl wrote: You are entitled To be compensated for the work You've done. Furthermore you're entitled, to be compensated For it without feeling torn. Get a job then and mod when you can, you say that you are torn, but i think it's clear that the decision has been made already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserDeathIV Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 (edited) i have no problems with donating to one or the other mod sometimes. BUT i cant afford to do it with every mod. and now that some mods turn paid i will have to pay large sums of money. i have 150 mods. imagine only 50 of them turning paid and only costing 1€. its already 50€. thats much for me. and i cant afford it. i am poor. i alrerady have a job but i cant afford paying 50€ JUST FOR MODS. with this new system modding will turn into a hobby for the rich. another thought: modding should be FREE. why? modding is a hobby. modding is not a job. if you wanna get money for your work, stop modding and get a job in the IT branch. hobbies shoudnt be paid. i know i will make many people angry with this, but this is my opinion. also: NOBODY forced them to mod. NO ONE. it was THEIR decision to mod. not OURS. Edited April 25, 2015 by KaiserDeathIV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakedaSun Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 WoW Perhaps I choosed the wrong time to start learning modding .. Although I would be happy to see people earning from their hobby if others would like to donate them I really wouldn't even consider to test their mod if they are to charge me for this. From my personal view the original game although good enough had many problems and many modders have done great work to make it better. But all this on everyone who has decided to download their mod and test it. Still so many mods have conflicts or have problems. Also I wonder what kind of law is this which when you use a free tool or buy a game and you mod it with your time talent gives the rights to any company to earn money. It is just an excuse the phrase "but this is my game" from the creator. "" This is my car why you have change it upgrade it and it looks so good ? you have even earn so much money selling it with all these extra staff "" I want some of your earnings. WoW so buying means nothing from the eye of companies like Beth. Sorry when i buy something I can do what ever I like with it and if not then we do not speak of buying and selling a product but perhaps selling a license for a period. Modding I though was about creation fantasy talent and perhaps in the way to earn some money. If you are so good go make your game and let us support you. Even if the art of modding was perfect with no bugs not conflicts it would be stealing from a company to earn money and from the side see of a user would be subjective if he/she would buy it from the modder. If we compare a mod with a painting the painting comes first, it doesn't need test time it hasn't bugs and conflicts. The mod is an art which from my personal opinion can't be sold. Of course can earn money from the willing of others to help the modder. I don't even know if the land of Skyrim is for sold. I do believe it is free for any modder to create.Perhaps it is the time to fight for free Skyrim. Sorry for any wrongs in my writting. I am a little bit upset and when I write in a second language I do some mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lFostelR Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 In response to post #24608634. #24609314, #24612079, #24612614, #24613089 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote iiiimessiahiiii wrote: Quote foster xbl wrote: I simply do not see it that way, here's a quick example:Nock to Tip, the last mod I released, before taking a break from modding.was a well received project. I spent over a month developing it, and countlessmore hours refining it. It is far from perfect, and still has a couple bugs/balance issues.But quite frankly I got tired of tweaking it over and over. Now when I return to actively modding Skyrim, I will work more on these issues. But I do not feel obligated to do so, until I'm good and ready, If I had a more vested interest in the project, it would've been a better mod. The same goes for anybody doing anything, if an author has a vested interest in a project, (such as the possibility for compensation ) it will improve the quality of a project.But again this is speculation. Quote freedom613 wrote: @FosterIs money the only motivation though? I do not mod for Skyrim, I am however a Minecraft Map Maker which is about the same: we both create free content for the community. Like other modders, I have never recieved a cent for my work however I am still motivated to make maps since I release maps I want to play on. If I already made the map for me, why not release it to the community? Money is a good incentive, but the majority of modding has been free since the 1990s. Why should we break the machine that has worked since the time when there was a Soviet Union? This workshop update has done nothing but harm: fragmented the community, killed support for Bethesda, and made Valve look like villians trying to pull the wool over our eyes saying this is to support the mod makers. Quote foster xbl wrote: Is money the only motivation? No, of course not and like you, I make for myself first, then share what I've created. I've modded for 15+ years, and money has never been an issue.Moving forward, it is something I will now consider though. Quote freedom613 wrote: If you want money as your motiviation, well I cannot stop you. What Valve has done to the community here though is unforgivable. The irony of having a civil war in a game about a civil war...I will ask though: Is it worth the small cut from Valve to be part of this schism? If you are going to sell your mods, might as well do it on your own site and get the full cut instead of a quarter. Then again, I know nothing about modding Skyrim so maybe it is worth the 25%. My map mods are me just messing around with Terrain Control, takes me about a week to make one (two if I go with custom biomes) so money isn't worth it for that.The point I'm trying to make, is why does this have to be such a big deal, or "schism" as you called it. What I so wrong or shameful about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumbek Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 In response to post #24617454. Reveal hidden contents Quote MacKom wrote: If someone offers me a way to make a few hundred dollars over the next month and this in NO WAY hinders your access to my mod currently, why is it wrong? For those of us modders who have made clear we will never, ever remove or limit our Nexus mod versions, why doesn't it fly with you if I let some well-off Steam users pay me a meager fee?My main concern is the payout ratio since it is so one-sided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumbek Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644, #24570059, #24570684, #24570944, #24571509, #24571604, #24572384, #24582389, #24582414, #24582584, #24582599, #24582694, #24582734, #24582839, #24582924, #24582949, #24583354, #24583399, #24583779, #24583954, #24616474, #24616934, #24617369, #24617549 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Brumbek wrote: Quote Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people. Quote athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality. Quote Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community. Quote heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well. Quote 1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro. This is a game changer. Quote A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it. Quote boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens Quote ambria wrote: @ 1erCru That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there Quote Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating. Quote Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business. Quote SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds? Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.But it doesn't make it any less true. Quote EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod. Quote 1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.Free modding is dead. Quote IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only Quote Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*! is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided. Quote Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO! Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...sigh Quote 1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much. Greed never loses Quote icecreamassassin wrote: @BrumbekI too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider Quote HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS. Quote ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see Quote ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it. Quote antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*! I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam. Quote iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity. It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!Seems like a nightmare situation to me. Quote jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now! Quote mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho Quote Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.@icecreamassassin: point taken.Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality? Quote mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too. Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it. And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.That's my oppinion. Quote Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer... Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion. In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4. Quote Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going. Quote Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....that being said instant gratification is rather nice Quote icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about. Quote SpyderArachnid wrote: While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do. Quote FishBiter wrote: It amazes me that the focus here is on how greedy the modders are... rather than how modders are being tricked into letting themselves and their work be exploited for someone else's gain. Quote NoDebate wrote: Okay, my Chrome crashed and I lost some of my DOOM WALL OF TEXT but, I am typing feverishly (no I'm not actually sweating, that'd be grody) as we speak. DOOM WALL OF TEXT IS COMING. Quote Solongchu wrote: I agree with FishBiter if the modders were getting the 75% and not Steam I would consider paying for mods like SMIM.The way they have it set up the modders dont really get anything for their hard work and like others have said alot of these mods depend on resources that are not theirs and wont work without them.I really wonder what the skse team think about this. Quote Aerial_ace wrote: For a mod like yours i would have no issue with paying some money, its just when some one go $2 for some crappy sword or armor, no Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, without going into great detail, though I presume one could find volumes on the subject, the Elder Scrolls used to exist as something of a 'niche' RPG. Overtime, as all good things do, the Elder Scrolls series continued to gather popularity and support, booming with Oblivion. Skyrim launched the Elder Scrolls somewhere into the stratosphere, where everyone and their grandmamas (that's grandmothers) were playing, talking about, or otherwise experiencing Skyrim. Now, regarding those volumes, we of the longtime veterans have noticed a trend (and yelled at each other about it in great excess) in the Elder Scrolls series. A move from buggy cRPG to buggy AAA title. Skyrim, now the gold-standard for open-world 'RPGs' (I would argue that one cannot have an RPG without classes or stats - a debate for another time) is once again trying to push the market in a particular direction, to redefine what it means to be a modder.Now, this is where you stop me. Hey! Debate! What about CS:GO? Dota 2? TF 2!? Those are the real innovators, they started hat market choo-choo train, that's really what got this rolling, right? In part, yes. I suspect Valve was motivated by the rampant success of user generated content within their own sphere of games. Heck, I've easily spent 300 bucks on Dota 2 cosmetics. The model works. Why? It's quick, easy, simple. Cosmetics have no game impact, can be mass produced, and be shown off. They're symbols of status, antiques, and currency. Points worth making so long as we are here. Genuine Timebreaker? Price inflated thanks to supply and demand. Consequence of not owning a Timebreaker? Minus five points for Gryffindor? Otherwise, nothing. What's in a Chroma Case? An 'Exceedingly Rare Special Item!' Will my CS:GO experience be drastically different if I do not own a Chroma Case? One could argue yes, I will suffice with a firm 'no.' So, we've established that user generated content has existed in a fashion that has little to no impact on the individual user experience. Let's bounce around a bit.Back to Bethesda! So how are we redefining what it means to be a modder? Isn't SMIM just another form of cosmetic bundled together in a neat little package? Yes and yes. Are we radically changing Skyrim by having not having SMIM installed? I'm obsessive compulsive so, yes. In reality, no. Skyrim is not a new game with SMIM installed [though sometimes it feels like it :(]. Morrowind Rebirth, Fallout Wanderer's Edition, New Vegas Enhanced Content, Project Nevada, Requiem, SkyRE - these are all total overhauls. Someone looking for a particular kind of experience, often goes to these types of "gameplay overhaul" mods to do so. Why does the player seek out these experiences? Because Bethesda has failed to provide the appropriate experience in the vanilla game. It's the consequence of success. In the process of becoming the "gold standard" Bethesda is forced to make difficult design decisions in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Systems get scrapped as "too spreadsheety" or "difficult to implement" or "detrimental to the new player experience." These "gameplay overhaul" mods provide the player with something the core game does not. The ability to customize or redefine the core experience to something more desirable. Now do note, I am not suggesting any of the aforementioned mods currently cost money. In fact, none of them do (to my knowledge). However, what happens when similar "gameplay overhauls" are only available at cost? When all the work and talent goes to developing the next "gameplay overhaul" available for Fallout 4? At say (arbitrary price, for the sake of even math), 16 bucks? Wait a second... Didn't I just pay 60 for this game? Why should I have to pay a modder 4 bucks and Bethesda 12 bucks for something that should be in Fallout 4 to begin with? Can't you expand my choice of available options in the vanilla game? What happened to the class system in Skyrim? Is it accessibility or cutting corners? Is there anything in Fallout 4 that can be snipped off, shoveling the workload on to modders, who then in turn give 75% of their proceeds to a pair of companies that invest nothing in the project?Let's try the previous exercise again, with a different twist. Tamriel Rebuilt, A World of Pain, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth - these are all significant content mods. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of hours combined. These hours include new areas/zones, NPCs, enemies, quests, weapons - the stuff of expansions. What happens if these user generated expansion packs become the only sellers on the Steam Workshop? With only 25% of the profits going to the people who made these expansions? Where's the pressure for Bethesda to create their own expansion packs? Why not just turn all their DLC into followers and cosmetics? Houses and quests (sold as mini-adventures of course)? Think of this in terms of simple efficiency. If you're expending say (arbitrary number incoming) 100,000 man hours, 100 guys working at 1,000 hours each, to drop the next big expansion for Fallout 4 while a team of modders can do the same work, without the benefit of salaries, wouldn't you just opt to let the modders do the work? You can focus your efforts on the next big release, new IPs, new sources of revenue. As the saying goes, "build it so the modders can fix it."Now, granted, this is all doomsday type stuff. Fire in the skies (smoke on the water). I could very easily argue against what I have just suggested. That stuff up there sounds like utter nonsense. Of course Bethesda isn't going to abandon their expansion packs, churn out fresh IPs, and outsource their work to modders. Right? But, do we want to risk the potential outcome? What happens if the worst does come to pass? I certainly don't want to see that happen. Now, I very well know SMIM will not cause the MODDING APOCALYPSE. Charging two bucks (or any number of bucks) for the content you have created is your right and is reasonable. However, can't modders take a second and say, "Hey! If you see enough value in the modding market to suggest a paid scheme, can I get a fair share?" Aren't Valve and Bethesda turning enough profit by investing near-to-nothing in the mods they host on the Workshop? Most consumers are reacting negatively because they like free stuff. I like free stuff. You could call that entitlement, sure. I call it simple caution. We won't know how far off Fallout 4 is until after June 14th (or whatever the reveal date is). Is it in our best interests, as both mod consumers and mod creators, to jump in feet first and not consider the potential consequences? Do we want to solidify the Bethesda Mod Market on a game that is almost four years old?Anyway, I could ramble for ages. I rarely get out and type this much on... Anywhere. Y'all feel free to pick it apart as you please. I'm going to go dig up some Ancient Dagoth Brandy and imagine what the MODDING APOCALYPSE will be like. However, I will leave you all with a quote I find... Appropriate. Let's not allow Bethesda to get so caught up in making money, that they forget what makes this community worthwhile."Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren't with the Dunmer people." -Adril Arano, on House Hlaalu. Quote Brumbek wrote: @icecreamassassin: interesting point about people copying other's work. That's the thing about SMIM though, ain't nobody insane enough to copy it. It is too grueling. So in a sense I can see the Valve system working...only the best mods will consistently sell. This assumes Valve has a proper way of sorting and ranking paid mods, which is unclear. But yes, the easy nonsense mods will overrun the SW with imitations galore. Again, I fear the truly quality mods will be lost. Anyway, I still am torn...but never fear, all this has caused me to update SMIM to 1.75 finally. I will always, ALWAYS put the latest and greatest versions of SMIM on Skyrim Nexus. Withholding updates is diabolical. So in this sense, all us Nexus users never need to fear the SW. SMIM's true home is the Nexus, and I believe sincere and honest modders will gravitate to the Nexus, even if we allow SW to be a pay option for SW users. Quote Elegost75 wrote: So your internal dispute is if you should upload on SW but keep it on Nexus for free?If so, just do it. Quote Ramon1 wrote: I don't think it's greedy to ask money for your work, I just hope that the Nexus can devise a way to help with this, so you don't have to give a Valve/Bethesda a dime for your work. The best suggestion I've seen is some sort of ad based partnership, no idea how can they encourage people to donate more also, but I hope they can find a middle ground for non-greedy modders like you and also to keep the mod scene open and free, they way it has always been. Quote marthgun wrote: I REFUSE to allow you (i will hunt you down) to get sucked into the shekel shoah that is steam.Pandora's box has been opened. The skids have to be greased for modders to make money, we should accept that reality. But no way should you sell yourself short by allowing valve to steal from you.25% is absolutely unacceptable. The fire rises. It will burn this thing to the ground. we need a rebuild initiative. Do not go to the dark side until the rebuild commences. the more high quality artists make the move now, the harder it will be to get an acceptable compensation. Quote GenBloodhorn wrote: So does that mean youre not joining the dark side? Quote Blitz54 wrote: In my opinion Brumbek, I feel that you could put SMIM on the Workshop for a price. I don't know what price, but considering some armor are 2 dollars by themselves, it makes you wonder how much you technically "could" charge.But I say this because you said you'd continue to update nexus to the latest version always. The way I see it, the mod is free, and it's accessible on a great site, easy to find. If someone is willing to pay whatever the price is on the Workshop, that's fine too. I say why shouldn't you (an author of a mod in nearly all Skyrim installs) not make money off of the "not so smart" people that only use the workshop for mods?But beware, comments on SMIM will still be spammed by upset people who think that wanting money for something they use is greedy. So I suggest waiting for a while to see how this whole workshop thing goes down. Quote Maruun wrote: Is Steam/Valve wanted to "support modders, they would add a donation button to any mod that is being uploaded to steam works.Right now not modders monetise their work, its simple Valve that will monetize your mods and throwing you a bone as thanks for your hard work. Quote mkess wrote: That's exactly that I thought, too. If they sell their mods, and use SKSE, BOSS. TESEDIT, Wrye bash, MCM, SKY UI, and all the other tools and mods, they, or better steam, has to PAY for them in the future. For every single use!These tools ar for non-comercial use only. If they try to make money using them, it's only logical, that they have to pay the authors.If they change the game, they have to change the payment for them as well. If I were the author of one of these tools, my lawyer would be busy now writing to steam, to congratulate them for this nice idea. ... And naming a price for the use of my tool. Plus naming an additional price for using the tool without permission. Quote Farvahar wrote: It's not you, it's not the users. It's the corporate suits. I af modder wants to try his luck with a 5 dollar mod (when AAA titles are available for less on Steam and often for free), by all means. But the bulk of the money should go to the modder. What I am seeing is exploitation and unethical business practices. Quote Jsmorris14 wrote: Don't know if anybody seen this? SKSE team on this subject.http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/page-3#entry23943101 Quote truehardlol wrote: Hey moderators and modders, do u ever thought of creating foundation system like Patreon, where content creators will put goal of $ for certain mod or mod update. I think this is more fairy system than that 75% greedy cut. Why should people pay valve/bethesda for things they didn't create? Quote NamelessTed wrote: I have always used SMIM when playing Skyrim and would probably find it worth some amount of money, especially if it meant more/better content. I paid for a lifetime Nexus membership because I use it a lot and it was worth it and haven't regretted it.One thing people need to realize is that it will be a dynamic economy. People might try to overcharge early on but the community will eventually decide what is worth $1, 5, 10, etc. Anybody who is upset over the option to pay content creators for their content is insane. Of course the mod authors can choose to give their content away for free if they choose to, or they can ask for $1. There are over 2 million unique downloads for SMIM, if 5% of those people decided it would be worth $1, at 25% that is $25,000. Valve paid out over $10 million last year from TF2 and DOTA2 user created content. If people like you could suddenly support themselves modding a game image how much better and how much more you could be doing.It is incredibly short sighted for all these people to complain about the option to pay for content. People also need to realize that this system is going to evolve over time. They talk a lot about how paid content changes balance in their games (negative or positive externalities) and they have made plenty of changes over time already. Quote dreamer2008 wrote: 2$ on SMIM, 2$ on another mod, then another... And we reach 50-100$ only on what we have installed right now. I appreciate your work Brumbek, but please consider at least leaving your current work on Nexus, and if you want to update your mod for the money, then upload the updated version on Steam. Edit: After reading your replies on this discussion, I saw that you will upload the updates on Nexus. Thank you very much! I am afraid that not all mod developers will be like you though :( Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks much to all for the thoughts! I'm withholding using SW for now. I want a Mod Greenlight system that recognizes ESTABLISHED mods like SMIM. But that probably will never happen. Sigh...we'll see. Thanks.@marthgun: 25% is crazy low. The split should be the other way around since Valve/Bethesda already make HUGE sums from the sale of the games themselves. That is chiefly why I haven’t uploaded SMIM to SW. It does feel like they are taking big advantage of me, unlike Dark0ne who isn’t some uber-rich guy and lets me keep all my donation money.@Blitz54: waiting is a wise move. I plan to wait, despite the feeling that I’m the dumb one for not jumping in and laughing as crazy people pay me money…which I only get 25% off. I just don’t like being extorted or extorting others…which SW sort of feels like ATM.@Farvahar: well said.@dreamer2008: yes, it is the bad apples that spoil it for us. I will never hide SMIM updates behind paywalls. Even if it would possibly bring in more income for the small price of my soul, ha! Quote Xtyfe00 wrote: Well done Brumbek, you should be the example for all to follow during this time. You have my respect for this. Quote foster xbl wrote: You are entitled To be compensated for the work You've done. Furthermore you're entitled, to be compensated For it without feeling torn. Quote sovs wrote: Get a job then and mod when you can, you say that you are torn, but i think it's clear that the decision has been made already."Get a job" - always such wonderful, positive, and compassionate advice!You know what is ironic, I noticed at least one paid mod on Steam Workshop has screenshots up showing SMIM objects in the background. Naturally, many users use SMIM, but this is yet another interesting question...posting screenshots on your paid mod that feature other modders content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magedx9 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 so what stops people from just pirating that mod now. i love moding skyrim and im not going to pay for mods that crash and make the game unstable if i pay it better work flawlessly like dlc. because ill donate only mods are a free thing the dev takes time to work on it thats his or her problem ill donate. i guess its no more skyrim moding untill steamworks dies in the pits of hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBoadstairs Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Not to long ago i began switching all my mods from steam to nexus, This is because the Steam workshop auto update function broke my version of Sofia follower when the mod updated to a version that had specific instructions for the update, Basically I found the Steam workshop was simply not the best way to use mods, and use of a manager tool was preferable. Now i have learned about this, I'm glad I switched my mods to Nexus version for my new playthrough,and intend to avoid those mods which are locked behind a paywall I still like the option of being able to donate, but i refuse to pay up front for something that may or may not be compatable or stable or work as advertised. I will donate afterwards should i find the content sufficiently worthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantompally76 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 In response to post #24615234. #24615334 is also a reply to the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote phantompally76 wrote: Quote freedom613 wrote: Kudos for ya! (You didn't upset me by the way...)Sigh.No sooner had I logged out that I got half a dozen text messages letting me know "SKYUI IS GOING PAYWALL ERMAGERD!!!!" effectively forcing every single one of us to buy into this horsecrap moving forward.Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iiiimessiahiiii Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 On 4/25/2015 at 1:52 AM, Brumbek said: In response to post #24617454. Reveal hidden contents Quote MacKom wrote: If someone offers me a way to make a few hundred dollars over the next month and this in NO WAY hinders your access to my mod currently, why is it wrong? For those of us modders who have made clear we will never, ever remove or limit our Nexus mod versions, why doesn't it fly with you if I let some well-off Steam users pay me a meager fee? My main concern is the payout ratio since it is so one-sided. I can see you and a lot of other modders still fail to understand or just dont want to. So lemme spell it out simple easy and clean. No one and I mean LITERALLY NO ONE is against you guys getting compensated for effort and work that is loved and used by millions. What we are against is the monetization of mods. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Modders making money doing what they love is great, in fact its excellent, however that is not even remotely close to what this is. This is about the destruction of modding. The creation of a new business practice utilizing free lance modders to create content for a game that is not tested, quality controlled, monitored, or otherwise remotely profesional is fine since modders deserve to be compensated for their "work". This is THIRD PARTY DLC. And no keeping your stuff free on other sites is not an answer. What are you gonna do when fallout 4 comes out and is a pile of trash from day 1 and is locked behind steam drm. And the only way to mod it is to license the mod tools or buy other peoples mods. Nexus is pretty much dead on arrival at that point. Now Steam officially owns all dlc for that game and the distribution and creation of it. This community depends on open source free information usage and sharing. It is now dead. Now all you have is a utopia of paywalled mods that are all small since community projects are now dead and a load order with 100s of mods is now hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Imagine a world of infinite horse armor. That is where we are and the most dangerous part is. NO ONE SEEMS TO REALIZE IT. WAKE UP BRUMBEK. WAKE UP BEFORE ITS TO LATE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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