darkslayer666 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 In response to post #24581979. Reveal hidden contents Quote freedom613 wrote: Yes, I did.If a game(especially) an MMO doesn't reach the goal in shares by a certain amount of time or the desired amount of $, it goes to crap(The company either shuts down servers, or give it out as pay-to-whatever). Look at Warhammer Online(game still runs, but it's dead in the sense), or simply read up on how publishers view successful projects, it'll explain better than I.EDIT: Nevermind, they shut down Warhammer Online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seracen Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I'd rather have a Nexus link to support modders via Patreon, as opposed to paying for access to mods. As much as I distrust DLC, at least there's SOME form of quality control. How am I supposed to know whether a particular mod is worth my time and money? Keeping things free encourages experimentation. By making mods paid content, you'll get the same siphoning effect as the gaming industry...only the known entities will be downloaded and paid for. As such, I imagine those who fail to make a profit will eventually come back to the Nexus, and free content creation. It just seems sad really. If there was some infrastructure for successful modders to get hired (after a certain amount of sales), then perhaps I'd be more supportive of this move. As it stands, I find it quite egregious. Too much profit for the companies, not enough for the modders, and screwing over the gamers regardless. One more nail in the coffin of that impending crash, IMO. I hope not, but I've become jaded by gaming altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKcelsior Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) In response to post #24581739. #24581849, #24581889, #24581959, #24582054, #24582144 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote mouser9169 wrote: Quote yps wrote: better mods? why? because some modders can make some money, they suddenly become better at modding? please. Quote knightspk2 wrote: You endorsed a few mods, I see. How about they all get removed from the Nexus and put on Workshop for $5? Quote akkalat85 wrote: That logic isn't very sound. Huge content mods like "Wet and Cold" will be a thing of the past if this continues. Not because Isoku wants to charge, but because authors like him will have no choice but to charge. A prominent author already put a price tag on content that wasn't his to sell, so unless we want to have our content stolen by charlatans we will eventually have no other choice but to put price tags on everything.This is a terrible day for modding. The community will not get better mods because of this... those mods would have been released for free/donation, but now we need to think about whether to release for free and risk being taken advantage of, or playing it safe and putting a price tag on it. Quote WightMage wrote: Why spend a ridiculous amount of time making an incredible mod and then charging a large price for it, when it is cheaper and, on the whole, more efficient to make a number of small, throw away mods and charge seemingly pennies for them?Profit is about maximizing return for as little investment as possible. I am not convinced that the introduction of money will somehow increase the quality of mods- indeed, I think it would do just the opposite. Quote Elegost75 wrote: People that think financial reward is a way to motivate anyone need to take a look at this: Not to mention, Valve is actively deleting mods that have a link to a paypal donation. They are not only promoting a 25/75 split, but they are demoting the notion of donating what you feel the mod is worth. This is a filthy business practice. I've got images of deleted free mods containing a link to donate. Their reasoning is to collect the money you would have donated 100% to the author. How is that so difficult to see?Evidence --> https://imgur.com/wW5j5yu Edited April 24, 2015 by akkalat85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marthgun Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 In response to post #24580299. #24580459, #24580464, #24580614, #24580869, #24581299, #24581864 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote spydar59 wrote: Quote marthgun wrote: If a mod author chooses to do this, they are ruining their rep. They brought that upon themselves. I'm more worried about what steam / beth decide to do with those rights. What about mods that change similar things hosted on the nexus, will those mods violate their copywrite ownership?Nexus won't be able to fight that, they'll be deleting things left and right, there will be riots. Quote popcorn71 wrote: Thats part of releasing a mod. You do it knowing full well that Beth can lay claim to your work but you do it anyway to make your gaming experience better.Its something else entirely when some other modder comes along and steals your work then turns around and sells it. Quote Jerros wrote: I'm a mod author and I refuse to participate in this. This was not why I started modding but looks like a good time to retire from it. Sad day indeed. Quote marthgun wrote: @popcornThere's a big difference though, heretofore Bethesda has had no stake in mods. They make nothing from the specifically. Now that they own a bunch of mods, will that incentive them to make absolutely sure there is no one undercutting them? will they find it economicaly viable to go after the "competition." If this were content / quest / gameplay mods being sold, there's a tiny argument there. But this is anything goes. And as its been pointed out above, the amount of hands in the cookie jar of virutally every mod is vast. It's a slap in the face to everyone that has contributed over the years. I want to believe mod authors like Chesko were lured in unawares, maybe they thought it sounded interesting and signed up, then the ball dropped. Quote popcorn71 wrote: I know there is a diferance. That was entirely my point. Beth can legally already do what ever they want with your mods as they own the rights to the game. Its not what I would call ethical but whatever.What I DO have a problem with is this crap I keep seeing about Chesko charging for a mod that has assets from FNIS without Fores permission. I love Cheskos mods but what he did was verrrrrrrrrryyyyy uncool and I highly doubt hes the only one with payed mods that have smiler issues. The workshop already had problems with mod pirates and this will just make it that much worse.===Edit===I think Im misunderstanding your post... Quote empiric wrote: Agreed the likelihood of unpaid '' DLC-ification" is very high. While a subset of players enjoy trying out mods with the understanding they'll have to deal with incompatibilities and load-order issues and the like, the "general gaming public" I venture doesn't have the patience for it. I think we'll see a "Top 100 Mods - selected to guarantee compatibility out of the box" DLC will happen very quickly. And with the nature of the market, what percentage of mods will be distributed in that form and who will be profiting? I think it answers itself.well i agree that its probably true that beth could shut down mods, so far there hasn't been a viable reason to do it.But since they are making money on mods, and say a similar mod shows up on the nexus, would Bethesda send a DMCA or copywrite claim to shut down that mod?Now it seems infinitely more likely they would go after their competition because the alternative is their paid mods are no long being purchased. Plus, lets not even get into the black market that will arise when this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnstalker Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I've been modding games on PC since Duke Nukem 3D and Quake. I put almost 700 hours on Skyrim with multiple playthroughs, each with 200+ mod variations. The concern is that if this ever becomes the norm, it will directly affect how I mod games, since it'll become a very costly way to play modded games. 24 hours isn't close to being enough since at the start of a playthrough, I spend a whole day tweaking and installing different mods and overhauls to see which ones work best together. I bet everyone here knows how that is. A water textures mod might not work with the new lighting mod that you're using, so you change the lighting mod and discover that now dungeons are too dark, so you revert back and change the water mod again. We all installed plenty of mods, only to discard them a few days later because they either didn't really click with our playthrough, or we discover something that work better. For example, I have 6 different skin texture mods for UNP bodies that I switch between whenever I create a new character. I'm sure I'm not the only one like this. Modding games would be a very costly process if you had to pay for every single mod, and that would be such a turn off from the whole thing. I understand that modders want to be paid for their work, and I support that as an artist that lives by his craft. However, this business model is not the way to go about it. Encouraged donations (a patreon-like system) would work much better and I already donated to a few modders that I enjoyed on the Nexus. My other concern is that how the community would thrive the way it is now if everyone started charging for mods. What about all the mods that were built on pre-existing mods to begin with, such as stand-alone followers? Most of those mods use from 5-10 different mods to create their characters. What about armor re-texture mods (which, IMO, most of the time look better than the original work), how will those work if the original mods, or the result ones were paid? who gets the money? Not only that. What about mods that get obsolete? or mods that get abandoned for something better later on? Remember how most of the UI mods were completely let go after SkyUI came out? or how we kept getting different weather and water mods until they got so good that we have the ones we have now. I use a combination of multiple water mods myself.. Personally, I won't ever pay for a mod. I will donate for modders that I like, but I believe that the modding community should remain just that, an open community of creators and gamers who love to share, play and create. Once money is introduced, it becomes a business. Modders will be more compelled to create mods that sell rather than mods that they enjoy, and the community starts falling apart. I'm hoping that this will not go as bad as to create a divide in the community, but we will have to wait and see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WightMage Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 In response to post #24578789. #24579599, #24579684, #24579689, #24579699, #24579814, #24581179, #24581389, #24581644, #24581999, #24582189 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote donta1979 wrote: Quote marthgun wrote: they should just add advertisements to the downloads of mods like youtube. some can join in others can refuse.This costs nexus only what it would take to implement it, everyone is happy except people that don't know how adblock works.have a clickable advert to give them more money. let them shill for shekels (the current rules still apply though, no update stuff etc) Quote Natterforme wrote: Im pretty sure that Valve and bethesda have signed some sort of exclusivity agreement to prevent site like the Nexus from offering a better deal.-Natterforme Quote movomo wrote: Modding is in essense more of a community effort that has built on what came before them, than what some modders imagine. Speaking of the "frankenstein" modding tools as you say, who made them? Where's their cut if the end-modder starts to charge their mod? Who educated them to mod, whose knowledge and tools enabled them to mod, where's their cut? All the mod managers, mod tools, and great many more indirectly vital tools. Who helped the bug fixing, who helped the newbies on the forum, where's their cut? All of this was fair when all of it was free and none of them had their cut. Now it isn't. Do modders deserve money for "their" mod? Certainly, to an extent, but not entirely. Is it only a form of donation... as a whole, no modding comnunity has ever had strong objection to this donation thing for modders; that option has always been there. As long as it is not a disguised paywall (I do not necessarily mean chesko is making paywall), donation always has been accepted.Anyways, I hope they'd not be using the student-licensed max. Quote Nichoice wrote: Adding advertisements similar to Youtube is actually a brilliant idea, it allows modders to have monetary gain for the work and effort for which they have put in and does not create any form of consumer vendor relationship which would otherwise impose responsibilities for the modder! Quote marthgun wrote: and what about the nifskope team? without them getting custom assets into the game would be almost impossible without the injector that doesn't work nearly as well. They spent countless hours slaving away for free and people can go sell their armor mods for money.disgusting. Quote donta1979 wrote: You will see, studios start releasing their in house tools/exporters-importers for modders. If you have no noticed there are 3d production programs on steam now, there is a reason for this. Not just for indy studios, but also modders. Like by Frankenstein what was the last update for Max? Maya? Its been awhile am I right? Nor does it always work correctly. There will always be free mods, it will not destroy the modding community, if anything will give the modding community access to studio tools so the gaming companies can start making profits sooner than later. Many of you need to go read the authors comments on the steam page, looking at their mods they look fantastic. But they will tell you they have not even gotten a cent from donations, and 25% is better than 100% of nothing. I used to mod way back in the day of morrowind, when the first tools started to become available, been modding since, didn't release a single mod until the past 3-4 years publicly on a big site. I have the donations tab up, have a couple of nice mods, have I received a cent? Nope Even going out of my way to try and tailor for almost every request. Do I expect a donation? Nope That is why I am laughing at none modders saying donations but have not even donated a cent to modders, yet are all up in arms against those that wish to sell their art. Would I sell my mods right now? Nope, would I sell my mods if it became more profitable like I did back in the day before high speed internet? Maybe. Like I said above modding and mods was not always free, mods used to be sold by floppy/CD/BBS and in rare rare cases a DVD. You all are directing your anger in the wrong direction dont put it on the modders that see this as a way of generating extra income, but on Valve for taking the Nintendo approach to modding with the high peace of the pie. Having youtube videos will not work so well unless your a big site like the nexus that has tons of users, or you run a youtube channel with over one million subscribers your not going to generate that much you would probably generate less than the 25% valve is handing out. Quote iloveyoupurples wrote: I could kiss you for this post. We'll probably both be banned for calling poor sight and eye on the Nexus, we'll go down together! <3 (I was actually against all the selling of mods until I did some google-fu.) I found out a few dudes make a metric-****ton of money off of the modders on these 3rd party websites and modders get nothing. So I kinda had to shift my weight on this one. Quote donta1979 wrote: I am not trying to go down, or shame anyone I am just pointing out I know how much sites like this make. Though google and having worked in the industry, gaming studios/publishers know trust me. What valve and bethesda is doing since EA failed at it so hard is how to do it right, turn out a profit, without major backlash, and by backlash I am talking about one to ten million pissed off consumers. If a modder wants to make money from their art I am all for it. But it all needs to be done the right way. So modders, gamers, publishers, all win and make it easier to mod for everyone. Quote marthgun wrote: @ donta1979incorrect. Anger must be directed somewhere. 25% is simply unacceptable. waiting to get paid until 400 shekels is achieved is criminal. The copy write is a big issue.This is not a lesser of two evils, these are two demons and they both must be put to the fire.I'm open to a conversation about monetizing mods, but this is unacceptable. Join the rebel alliance or burn on the stake with the other witches. We will prevail. Quote donta1979 wrote: hehe I have said the 25% is not right, and the valve 75% is wrong. That is what people need to get angry about. Yes the 400 is also criminal it lets valve make money off of interest... But look at the modders who put their work up, they said 25% is better than 100% of nothing. They are also great modders and have not received a single donation ever. So everyone here has to see their stand on it where they are coming from. Nay, friend- we are already winning. The enemy doth fall upon their own swords:https://imgur.com/wW5j5yu https://archive.is/g23Xuhttps://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704730313461178/http://i.imgur.com/DItmsFn.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seracen Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 In response to post #24582229. Reveal hidden contents Quote Seracen wrote: Since it's not letting me edit: or an ad-share program, if Patreon isn't enough. Again though, the main issue is how few people "make a living" on such programs (consider youtube, it isn't as lucrative as most people like to think). IMO, this will result in little monetary gain for the modders, and just perturb the fans needlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumbek Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644, #24570059, #24570684, #24570944, #24571509, #24571604, #24572384 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Brumbek wrote: Quote Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people. Quote athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality. Quote Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community. Quote heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well. Quote 1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro. This is a game changer. Quote A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it. Quote boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens Quote ambria wrote: @ 1erCru That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there Quote Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating. Quote Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business. Quote SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds? Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.But it doesn't make it any less true. Quote EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod. Quote 1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.Free modding is dead. Quote IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only Quote Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*! is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided. Quote Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO! Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...sigh Quote 1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much. Greed never loses Quote icecreamassassin wrote: @BrumbekI too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider Quote HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS. Quote ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see Quote ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it. Quote antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*! I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam. Quote iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity. It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!Seems like a nightmare situation to me. Quote jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now! Quote mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho Quote Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.@icecreamassassin: point taken.Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality? Quote mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too. Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it. And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.That's my oppinion. Quote Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer... Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion. In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4. Quote Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going. Quote Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....that being said instant gratification is rather nice Quote icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about. Quote SpyderArachnid wrote: While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do. Quote FishBiter wrote: It amazes me that the focus here is on how greedy the modders are... rather than how modders are being tricked into letting themselves and their work be exploited for someone else's gain. Quote NoDebate wrote: Okay, my Chrome crashed and I lost some of my DOOM WALL OF TEXT but, I am typing feverishly (no I'm not actually sweating, that'd be grody) as we speak. DOOM WALL OF TEXT IS COMING. Quote Solongchu wrote: I agree with FishBiter if the modders were getting the 75% and not Steam I would consider paying for mods like SMIM.The way they have it set up the modders dont really get anything for their hard work and like others have said alot of these mods depend on resources that are not theirs and wont work without them.I really wonder what the skse team think about this. Quote Aerial_ace wrote: For a mod like yours i would have no issue with paying some money, its just when some one go $2 for some crappy sword or armor, no Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, without going into great detail, though I presume one could find volumes on the subject, the Elder Scrolls used to exist as something of a 'niche' RPG. Overtime, as all good things do, the Elder Scrolls series continued to gather popularity and support, booming with Oblivion. Skyrim launched the Elder Scrolls somewhere into the stratosphere, where everyone and their grandmamas (that's grandmothers) were playing, talking about, or otherwise experiencing Skyrim. Now, regarding those volumes, we of the longtime veterans have noticed a trend (and yelled at each other about it in great excess) in the Elder Scrolls series. A move from buggy cRPG to buggy AAA title. Skyrim, now the gold-standard for open-world 'RPGs' (I would argue that one cannot have an RPG without classes or stats - a debate for another time) is once again trying to push the market in a particular direction, to redefine what it means to be a modder.Now, this is where you stop me. Hey! Debate! What about CS:GO? Dota 2? TF 2!? Those are the real innovators, they started hat market choo-choo train, that's really what got this rolling, right? In part, yes. I suspect Valve was motivated by the rampant success of user generated content within their own sphere of games. Heck, I've easily spent 300 bucks on Dota 2 cosmetics. The model works. Why? It's quick, easy, simple. Cosmetics have no game impact, can be mass produced, and be shown off. They're symbols of status, antiques, and currency. Points worth making so long as we are here. Genuine Timebreaker? Price inflated thanks to supply and demand. Consequence of not owning a Timebreaker? Minus five points for Gryffindor? Otherwise, nothing. What's in a Chroma Case? An 'Exceedingly Rare Special Item!' Will my CS:GO experience be drastically different if I do not own a Chroma Case? One could argue yes, I will suffice with a firm 'no.' So, we've established that user generated content has existed in a fashion that has little to no impact on the individual user experience. Let's bounce around a bit.Back to Bethesda! So how are we redefining what it means to be a modder? Isn't SMIM just another form of cosmetic bundled together in a neat little package? Yes and yes. Are we radically changing Skyrim by having not having SMIM installed? I'm obsessive compulsive so, yes. In reality, no. Skyrim is not a new game with SMIM installed [though sometimes it feels like it :(]. Morrowind Rebirth, Fallout Wanderer's Edition, New Vegas Enhanced Content, Project Nevada, Requiem, SkyRE - these are all total overhauls. Someone looking for a particular kind of experience, often goes to these types of "gameplay overhaul" mods to do so. Why does the player seek out these experiences? Because Bethesda has failed to provide the appropriate experience in the vanilla game. It's the consequence of success. In the process of becoming the "gold standard" Bethesda is forced to make difficult design decisions in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Systems get scrapped as "too spreadsheety" or "difficult to implement" or "detrimental to the new player experience." These "gameplay overhaul" mods provide the player with something the core game does not. The ability to customize or redefine the core experience to something more desirable. Now do note, I am not suggesting any of the aforementioned mods currently cost money. In fact, none of them do (to my knowledge). However, what happens when similar "gameplay overhauls" are only available at cost? When all the work and talent goes to developing the next "gameplay overhaul" available for Fallout 4? At say (arbitrary price, for the sake of even math), 16 bucks? Wait a second... Didn't I just pay 60 for this game? Why should I have to pay a modder 4 bucks and Bethesda 12 bucks for something that should be in Fallout 4 to begin with? Can't you expand my choice of available options in the vanilla game? What happened to the class system in Skyrim? Is it accessibility or cutting corners? Is there anything in Fallout 4 that can be snipped off, shoveling the workload on to modders, who then in turn give 75% of their proceeds to a pair of companies that invest nothing in the project?Let's try the previous exercise again, with a different twist. Tamriel Rebuilt, A World of Pain, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth - these are all significant content mods. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of hours combined. These hours include new areas/zones, NPCs, enemies, quests, weapons - the stuff of expansions. What happens if these user generated expansion packs become the only sellers on the Steam Workshop? With only 25% of the profits going to the people who made these expansions? Where's the pressure for Bethesda to create their own expansion packs? Why not just turn all their DLC into followers and cosmetics? Houses and quests (sold as mini-adventures of course)? Think of this in terms of simple efficiency. If you're expending say (arbitrary number incoming) 100,000 man hours, 100 guys working at 1,000 hours each, to drop the next big expansion for Fallout 4 while a team of modders can do the same work, without the benefit of salaries, wouldn't you just opt to let the modders do the work? You can focus your efforts on the next big release, new IPs, new sources of revenue. As the saying goes, "build it so the modders can fix it."Now, granted, this is all doomsday type stuff. Fire in the skies (smoke on the water). I could very easily argue against what I have just suggested. That stuff up there sounds like utter nonsense. Of course Bethesda isn't going to abandon their expansion packs, churn out fresh IPs, and outsource their work to modders. Right? But, do we want to risk the potential outcome? What happens if the worst does come to pass? I certainly don't want to see that happen. Now, I very well know SMIM will not cause the MODDING APOCALYPSE. Charging two bucks (or any number of bucks) for the content you have created is your right and is reasonable. However, can't modders take a second and say, "Hey! If you see enough value in the modding market to suggest a paid scheme, can I get a fair share?" Aren't Valve and Bethesda turning enough profit by investing near-to-nothing in the mods they host on the Workshop? Most consumers are reacting negatively because they like free stuff. I like free stuff. You could call that entitlement, sure. I call it simple caution. We won't know how far off Fallout 4 is until after June 14th (or whatever the reveal date is). Is it in our best interests, as both mod consumers and mod creators, to jump in feet first and not consider the potential consequences? Do we want to solidify the Bethesda Mod Market on a game that is almost four years old?Anyway, I could ramble for ages. I rarely get out and type this much on... Anywhere. Y'all feel free to pick it apart as you please. I'm going to go dig up some Ancient Dagoth Brandy and imagine what the MODDING APOCALYPSE will be like. However, I will leave you all with a quote I find... Appropriate. Let's not allow Bethesda to get so caught up in making money, that they forget what makes this community worthwhile."Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren't with the Dunmer people." -Adril Arano, on House Hlaalu.@icecreamassassin: interesting point about people copying other's work. That's the thing about SMIM though, ain't nobody insane enough to copy it. It is too grueling. So in a sense I can see the Valve system working...only the best mods will consistently sell. This assumes Valve has a proper way of sorting and ranking paid mods, which is unclear. But yes, the easy nonsense mods will overrun the SW with imitations galore. Again, I fear the truly quality mods will be lost. Anyway, I still am torn...but never fear, all this has caused me to update SMIM to 1.75 finally. I will always, ALWAYS put the latest and greatest versions of SMIM on Skyrim Nexus. Withholding updates is diabolical. So in this sense, all us Nexus users never need to fear the SW. SMIM's true home is the Nexus, and I believe sincere and honest modders will gravitate to the Nexus, even if we allow SW to be a pay option for SW users. Edited April 24, 2015 by Brumbek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marthenil Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644, #24570059, #24570684, #24570944, #24571509, #24571604, #24572384, #24582389, #24582584, #24582599 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Brumbek wrote: Quote Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people. Quote athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality. Quote Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community. Quote heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well. Quote 1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro. This is a game changer. Quote A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it. Quote boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens Quote ambria wrote: @ 1erCru That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there Quote Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating. Quote Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business. Quote SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds? Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.But it doesn't make it any less true. Quote EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod. Quote 1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.Free modding is dead. Quote IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only Quote Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*! is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided. Quote Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO! Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...sigh Quote 1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much. Greed never loses Quote icecreamassassin wrote: @BrumbekI too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider Quote HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS. Quote ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see Quote ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it. Quote antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*! I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam. Quote iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity. It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!Seems like a nightmare situation to me. Quote jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now! Quote mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho Quote Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.@icecreamassassin: point taken.Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality? Quote mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too. Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it. And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.That's my oppinion. Quote Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer... Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion. In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4. Quote Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going. Quote Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....that being said instant gratification is rather nice Quote icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about. Quote SpyderArachnid wrote: While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do. Quote FishBiter wrote: It amazes me that the focus here is on how greedy the modders are... rather than how modders are being tricked into letting themselves and their work be exploited for someone else's gain. Quote NoDebate wrote: Okay, my Chrome crashed and I lost some of my DOOM WALL OF TEXT but, I am typing feverishly (no I'm not actually sweating, that'd be grody) as we speak. DOOM WALL OF TEXT IS COMING. Quote Solongchu wrote: I agree with FishBiter if the modders were getting the 75% and not Steam I would consider paying for mods like SMIM.The way they have it set up the modders dont really get anything for their hard work and like others have said alot of these mods depend on resources that are not theirs and wont work without them.I really wonder what the skse team think about this. Quote Aerial_ace wrote: For a mod like yours i would have no issue with paying some money, its just when some one go $2 for some crappy sword or armor, no Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, without going into great detail, though I presume one could find volumes on the subject, the Elder Scrolls used to exist as something of a 'niche' RPG. Overtime, as all good things do, the Elder Scrolls series continued to gather popularity and support, booming with Oblivion. Skyrim launched the Elder Scrolls somewhere into the stratosphere, where everyone and their grandmamas (that's grandmothers) were playing, talking about, or otherwise experiencing Skyrim. Now, regarding those volumes, we of the longtime veterans have noticed a trend (and yelled at each other about it in great excess) in the Elder Scrolls series. A move from buggy cRPG to buggy AAA title. Skyrim, now the gold-standard for open-world 'RPGs' (I would argue that one cannot have an RPG without classes or stats - a debate for another time) is once again trying to push the market in a particular direction, to redefine what it means to be a modder.Now, this is where you stop me. Hey! Debate! What about CS:GO? Dota 2? TF 2!? Those are the real innovators, they started hat market choo-choo train, that's really what got this rolling, right? In part, yes. I suspect Valve was motivated by the rampant success of user generated content within their own sphere of games. Heck, I've easily spent 300 bucks on Dota 2 cosmetics. The model works. Why? It's quick, easy, simple. Cosmetics have no game impact, can be mass produced, and be shown off. They're symbols of status, antiques, and currency. Points worth making so long as we are here. Genuine Timebreaker? Price inflated thanks to supply and demand. Consequence of not owning a Timebreaker? Minus five points for Gryffindor? Otherwise, nothing. What's in a Chroma Case? An 'Exceedingly Rare Special Item!' Will my CS:GO experience be drastically different if I do not own a Chroma Case? One could argue yes, I will suffice with a firm 'no.' So, we've established that user generated content has existed in a fashion that has little to no impact on the individual user experience. Let's bounce around a bit.Back to Bethesda! So how are we redefining what it means to be a modder? Isn't SMIM just another form of cosmetic bundled together in a neat little package? Yes and yes. Are we radically changing Skyrim by having not having SMIM installed? I'm obsessive compulsive so, yes. In reality, no. Skyrim is not a new game with SMIM installed [though sometimes it feels like it :(]. Morrowind Rebirth, Fallout Wanderer's Edition, New Vegas Enhanced Content, Project Nevada, Requiem, SkyRE - these are all total overhauls. Someone looking for a particular kind of experience, often goes to these types of "gameplay overhaul" mods to do so. Why does the player seek out these experiences? Because Bethesda has failed to provide the appropriate experience in the vanilla game. It's the consequence of success. In the process of becoming the "gold standard" Bethesda is forced to make difficult design decisions in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Systems get scrapped as "too spreadsheety" or "difficult to implement" or "detrimental to the new player experience." These "gameplay overhaul" mods provide the player with something the core game does not. The ability to customize or redefine the core experience to something more desirable. Now do note, I am not suggesting any of the aforementioned mods currently cost money. In fact, none of them do (to my knowledge). However, what happens when similar "gameplay overhauls" are only available at cost? When all the work and talent goes to developing the next "gameplay overhaul" available for Fallout 4? At say (arbitrary price, for the sake of even math), 16 bucks? Wait a second... Didn't I just pay 60 for this game? Why should I have to pay a modder 4 bucks and Bethesda 12 bucks for something that should be in Fallout 4 to begin with? Can't you expand my choice of available options in the vanilla game? What happened to the class system in Skyrim? Is it accessibility or cutting corners? Is there anything in Fallout 4 that can be snipped off, shoveling the workload on to modders, who then in turn give 75% of their proceeds to a pair of companies that invest nothing in the project?Let's try the previous exercise again, with a different twist. Tamriel Rebuilt, A World of Pain, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth - these are all significant content mods. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of hours combined. These hours include new areas/zones, NPCs, enemies, quests, weapons - the stuff of expansions. What happens if these user generated expansion packs become the only sellers on the Steam Workshop? With only 25% of the profits going to the people who made these expansions? Where's the pressure for Bethesda to create their own expansion packs? Why not just turn all their DLC into followers and cosmetics? Houses and quests (sold as mini-adventures of course)? Think of this in terms of simple efficiency. If you're expending say (arbitrary number incoming) 100,000 man hours, 100 guys working at 1,000 hours each, to drop the next big expansion for Fallout 4 while a team of modders can do the same work, without the benefit of salaries, wouldn't you just opt to let the modders do the work? You can focus your efforts on the next big release, new IPs, new sources of revenue. As the saying goes, "build it so the modders can fix it."Now, granted, this is all doomsday type stuff. Fire in the skies (smoke on the water). I could very easily argue against what I have just suggested. That stuff up there sounds like utter nonsense. Of course Bethesda isn't going to abandon their expansion packs, churn out fresh IPs, and outsource their work to modders. Right? But, do we want to risk the potential outcome? What happens if the worst does come to pass? I certainly don't want to see that happen. Now, I very well know SMIM will not cause the MODDING APOCALYPSE. Charging two bucks (or any number of bucks) for the content you have created is your right and is reasonable. However, can't modders take a second and say, "Hey! If you see enough value in the modding market to suggest a paid scheme, can I get a fair share?" Aren't Valve and Bethesda turning enough profit by investing near-to-nothing in the mods they host on the Workshop? Most consumers are reacting negatively because they like free stuff. I like free stuff. You could call that entitlement, sure. I call it simple caution. We won't know how far off Fallout 4 is until after June 14th (or whatever the reveal date is). Is it in our best interests, as both mod consumers and mod creators, to jump in feet first and not consider the potential consequences? Do we want to solidify the Bethesda Mod Market on a game that is almost four years old?Anyway, I could ramble for ages. I rarely get out and type this much on... Anywhere. Y'all feel free to pick it apart as you please. I'm going to go dig up some Ancient Dagoth Brandy and imagine what the MODDING APOCALYPSE will be like. However, I will leave you all with a quote I find... Appropriate. Let's not allow Bethesda to get so caught up in making money, that they forget what makes this community worthwhile."Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren't with the Dunmer people." -Adril Arano, on House Hlaalu. Quote Brumbek wrote: @icecreamassassin: interesting point about people copying other's work. That's the thing about SMIM though, ain't nobody insane enough to copy it. It is too grueling. So in a sense I can see the Valve system working...only the best mods will consistently sell. This assumes Valve has a proper way of sorting and ranking paid mods, which is unclear. But yes, the easy nonsense mods will overrun the SW with imitations galore. Again, I fear the truly quality mods will be lost. Anyway, I still am torn...but never fear, all this has caused me to update SMIM to 1.75 finally. I will always, ALWAYS put the latest and greatest versions of SMIM on Skyrim Nexus. Withholding updates is diabolical. So in this sense, all us Nexus users never need to fear the SW. SMIM's true home is the Nexus, and I believe sincere and honest modders will gravitate to the Nexus, even if we allow SW to be a pay option for SW users. Quote Ramon1 wrote: I don't think it's greedy to ask money for your work, I just hope that the Nexus can devise a way to help with this, so you don't have to give a Valve/Bethesda a dime for your work. The best suggestion I've seen is some sort of ad based partnership, no idea how can they encourage people to donate more also, but I hope they can find a middle ground for non-greedy modders like you and also to keep the mod scene open and free, they way it has always been. Quote marthgun wrote: I REFUSE to allow you (i will hunt you down) to get sucked into the shekel shoah that is steam.Pandora's box has been opened. The skids have to be greased for modders to make money, we should accept that reality. But no way should you sell yourself short by allowing valve to steal from you.25% is absolutely unacceptable. The fire rises. It will burn this thing to the ground. we need a rebuild initiative. Do not go to the dark side until the rebuild commences. the more high quality artists make the move now, the harder it will be to get an acceptable compensation.So your internal dispute is if you should upload on SW but keep it on Nexus for free?If so, just do it. Edited April 24, 2015 by Elegost75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lincolnshooter Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I personally will never pay for a mod that isn't basically a DLC or a new game (Falskaar and nehrim are examples) and I imagine i am not alone. The issue is people will start uploading the paid content (as there isn't any protection for it) to the internet (to the nexus and other sites) perhaps behind paywalls or on sites with ads (so they make money). Its kinda sad but mod piracy will become a thing; there are much better ways for modders to make money, but this encourages all the poor behaviour we see with games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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