Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[Aenara]

I'm very sorry you lost your weekend to this mess. But thank you THANK YOU for this incredibly well-written, level-headed view of the chaos from your eyes.

[Crimson Knight]

Through the years It was the nexus that got me modding. got me modeling and it was the nexus alone that inspired me. This community has been such an amazing light in my life. thank you for everything. you have been here for us. we are here for you.

anything you need, let us know.

Thank you for all the years to date and years to come.

[Deleted7103646User]

In response to post #24717714. #24718959 is also a reply to the same post.

KaiserDeathIV wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: Lots of people get paid for hobbies. Ever been to a craft fair. Isn't the dream for anybody to make a living doing something they love.

don't deserve it a bit harsh, but you might advice them to earn money through one of the gameengine sites nowadays like the Unreal store or Unity store, and mod in their free time.

[voodoojedizin]

In response to post #24682284. #24682924, #24688774, #24689099, #24689669, #24712014, #24712544, #24712869, #24718274, #24718374, #24719029 are all replies on the same post.

Acidbuk wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: Good points. What I am trying to find out is where the morality, the respect in all of this.

I asked a question earlier but I think it got lost among the longer posts.

When the first Beth sdk was released was it just a big TOC or was there a friendly dialouge between the developer and community?

My reason for asking is becasue the way that the pay for mods has been rolled out is very cruel to the authors who made them because they made them out of the good will and love of games, with I imagine the blessing of Beth... I mean they have had some 10 years to take legal action.

My point is that this is a nasty way to intrduce their customers to the developing world of digital copyright. Why is there no communication from them? Why not talk to their audiences like adults as let's face it, most of us saw something like this was inevitable. But why oh why so aggressively? Or just plain clumsy??

Acidbuk wrote: Bethesda has a history of just dropping the creation-kit with an EULA that when you crunch down the legal speak boils to "Go Nuts. Just don't charge anyone for it". which is standard fare for most SDK's from pretty much any Developer that puts one out. Oh I agree with you, this is an absolutely brutal way to introduce a community that has co-operated for years, to the concept of digital copyright and licensing. licensing is not something anyone really wants to do, its one of those necessary evils which come part and parcel of Software development and its amazingly awesome that as a community we (collectively Users and Creators) have been able to avoid using them, instead using an informal "Please don't steal my stuff just ask if you want to use it" unfortunately as this moves forward, we are almost certainly going to see the term "licensing" as things formalise up between paid and Free mods and what can and cannot be used. I suspect Bethesda will keep quiet and ride out the storm of malcontent until things dye down, then they'll come out with some PR speak about 'We are Bethesda value your input on the recent opportunities for monetization of mods, and we are listening to your feed back and moving forward together with the community'

As for why now? that I couldn't tell you., I would kind of get it if they did this for Fallout 4 or TES-6 whenever that comes out because your dealing with a blank slate. but injecting this into an already vibrant and established ecosystem? is like introducing an invasive plant species. Everyone is scrambling - I really have Sympathy for Robin/Dark0ne right now, Guy had to cancel a holiday to deal with the fallout (no pun intended) from this, between Mod authors taking their mods down to migrate to the workshop, other mod authors scrambling to take their mods down because they are afraid someone will take their work and put IT on the workshop for money as their own (DMCA's are no easy thing), and users trying to download as many mods as they can in panic in case their favourite mods go Pay-Wall. its got to be just a little bit insane, investing all that time and money in the infrastructure upgrade was forward thinking. just not in the way he would have liked I guess.

I do find Valves/Bethesda TOC's morally questionable, in particular how its al-edged Chesko was told by a Valve employee that it was okay to use someone else's free content and include that and charge of it and not have to ask any permission what so-ever, that is not Chesko fault. However I find the concept of Early Access Mods Morally dubious - Early access it and of itself is tittering on the brink, paying for Early Access mods is so far down the slippery slope that I doubt you could even see the top any more.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think they did it before the realease of the new games so all this stuff thats happening now will have (in their hopeful opinion) died down by then.

Jake_Dragon wrote: Sorry posted in the wrong place

Acidbuk wrote: But that's the thing yeah. it doesn't make sense from a business of physiological perspective. it they were trying to warm people up to the idea of paid mods its far easier to do warm people up to it on a new Product, and with an existing one. For Better or worse Most people people are psychologically firm with the idea mods should be free. - Right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it is because its "the way its always been". so trying to change that with a new Product is much much better than trying to Bludgeon it into an existing IP like Skyrim because there is a LOT of fear, a whole big lot of it heaped in large ominous spades, because people are afraid of losing their favourite mods. or because of the interconnected nature of mods - having to buy one mod to play another one. its a rabbit warren than don't end.

. I don't think they would have had anywhere near the backlash if they'd made this change for Fallout 4 or TES6 because people aren't as .psychologically invested in the idea of Mods being free, so long as Bethesda had given assurances that they'd not be introducing this retro-actively for other games. people would have taken them at their word and it would have been far less turmoil. now, that trust is broken and Good Will is something you cannot buy, its earned,

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think they need the people on the Nexus (and other free communities) on board more than they would like to let on... the reason? Cuz Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls VI will more than likely be glitchy unoptimised games. The younger, less experienced console generation who are now moving back to the PC market will be lost, have to start from scratch... without the Nexus, SKSE LOOT and NMM teams, who will at the end of the day be the people who will be driving this whole paid modding "revolution" forward.

This does bring me to the wider point though that there is a conflict of interest here. The way it used to be is that we paid ~£45 for our games... they had massive potential and were pretty amazing but (as someone put it earlier) not even close to the experience gained through using mods... in many cases the game was unplayable, remember the whole Skyboost Application Layer scenario. But that price paid for everything, tools, games sdk all in a nice package. What seems to be forgotten is modders will not be excempt from having to pay for other mods that are not their own, including possible software licences that are not owned by Bethesda.

The point is modders were more inclined to work on these because Bethesda were under a legal obligation to provide a working game. Now, not necessarily so. While there is potential for modders to have some well earned revenue, there will be this playing field where the responsibilities between developer and modder become even more blurry than they are now. There has already been cases of modders complaining they now have to spend more time watching out for copyright and technical issues than they used to because there seems to already be little effort from the developers end in regards to moderation and quality control. Welcome to the slippery slope of mission creep, subscription and thus, recurring costs.

EDIT: I do not think the problem is so much that a modder should be allowed to charge, what is the issue is exactly how, how much and whether they are being exploited or not.

hangman04 wrote: the only think they Beth could do, the least, is to invest a fraction of the revenues in the functionality of the CK, cause the better their sdk is, the greater the possibility to make complex mods, which can be charged to a dlc level and can probably attract professional groups, small indie studios etc.

On the other hand it is possible on long term that this new way of earning money may attract other distributors that may want to compete Valve, and which way is best to compete than giving the author a better cut of the deal.

carlocgc wrote: If you can sell a mod don't you become a developer and not a modder. I mean whats the difference between a developer and a modder? the pay check right?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Totally the point I've been making. Its unregulated outsourcing.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Just found this on the forum

-QUOTE-
25% goes to the 'Unofficial Content Developer' (UCD) as the Developer.
A variable amount up to 30% of UCD's share goes to the 'Internal Revenue Service' of the 'United States Federal Government' as Taxation.
-END QUOTE-

Link: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2793044-paid-mods-for-skyrim-workshop-on-steam/page-27#entry24680649

This means as a modder you are unofficially employed in the country you live but are paying into the USA tax system. This sound like a legal and political minefield to anyone else?

You need to wise up about "Totalbiscuit" he's a bought and paid for media prostitute, he'll say anything that people/developers pay him to.

He's a phony! Sounds like a DJ, but he's not a gamer, he's a fake.

Any view he gives will be one that benefits, the developers, our whoever has the money.

[Deleted3507349User]

You know, the solution to ALL of this is absurdly simple.

 

All Bethesda had to is remove the 'mods must be free' clause from the CK, and let the floodgates swing open for modders to do whatever they want. It would still have the clause regarding copyrighted content, so they'd be off the hook for that. It would still have the clause regarding not breaking laws, so they be off the hook for that as well. It also wouldn't change a darned thing concerning the piracy problem of their own work.

 

Bethesda would still profit from the increased promotion of their games just like they always have. Modders would have the opportunity to get compensated for their work if they want (and you can't convince me that many modders - if any - would make more than a pittance compared to Beth's profits). Gamers would have the same freedom of choice they have right now.

 

Bethesda could do that, step back and let the market sort itself out. Problem solved.

 

Oh, and don't forget that modders who break copyright laws could still be held responsible, just as it is now.

[twhelan]

I was just perusing the latest uploads and ended up DL'ing. endorsing and giving kudos to one of them, even though I don't have the skill to actually utilize it's content. I did this merely to support the message conveyed by the author and many, many members of this community.

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65163

 

I then realized that I had, on numerous opportune occasions, shamefully neglected to extend a simple little thing like a kudos to someone who deserves much, much more. That said, I can't help but feel glad that I have neglected to do so until now.

 

If ever there were a message deserving of our kudos, this is it! Thank you Dark0ne!

[ScrollTron1c]

In response to post #24714709. #24715179 is also a reply to the same post.

Alienfriend wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: Don't be fooled by PR... They will only budge if it benefits them. That is why the communities must stand together and demand better rights. Petitions are an excellent way to do this but not the only way.

Good to know we may at least be able to twist his arm, which in turn may twist Bethesda into a more thought out scheme and not this cash cow they are chasing.

That is probably the most immediate problem that I see, Valvethesda get cold hard cash, modders... Oh cheers, coupons!

You mean the reddit Q&A he made?
He dodged all relevant questions entirely.

I bet if someone would have asked:
"Gabe, what time is it?"

He would have answered:
"Time is important for us. Some scientists also say that time is relative, which could have unexpected ramifications for every business model on the market if proven to be true."

...yada, yada yada. The typical nonsense you hear from politicians and businesspeople.


Gabe, people have asked a couple of simple questions that deserved to be answered.
Like Dark0ne's question if modding will be DRM-controlled in the future. Edited April 27, 2015 by ScrollTron1c

[twhelan]

In response to post #24718124.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

Haven't been over at Steam for quite some time now, and I won't even follow any links I come across. The first thing I do when booting up is go in offline mode. As far as I'm concerned, the s***storm (as you so eloquently put it, hehe) has merely evolved into a s*** hurricane.

[Element115]

In response to post #24698319. #24698634, #24699224, #24701314 are all replies on the same post.

Thandal wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: This is from the Steam FAQ

"Q. Can I sell a mod that contains artwork or content from another game or movie?
A. You must have the necessary rights to post any content that you post to the Steam Workshop, whether it is for sale or not. If you upload copyrighted content that you or your contributors do not have the rights to distribute, then you may forfeit all earned revenue from the item, may be liable for damages and compensation, and may be banned from future participation in this Workshop or the Steam Community in general.

Q. What if I see someone posting content I've created?
A. If someone has copied your work, please use the DMCA takedown notice."

Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?
A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing."

Modders will have to cover their own asses in some aspects but you should be doing that anyway.

ScrollTron1c wrote: Let's go a bit into the future, say you're a modder with plenty of useful FREE mods, and you don't want other people to profit from your work:


From now on you have to patrol the Steam Workshop every day and look for mods where you SUSPECT that they could have content stolen from you. That is, if that content is even visible on the promo images.

Then you have to buy the suspicious mods to verify if there is anything made by you inside.
In case of mods that are just scripts, sounds etc. you would have to buy practically ALL the mods to be safe.

Of course you can't get an actual refund (Steambucks are essentially toy money with which you can only buy Steam products) so you're sitting on the costs for all that.


Now if every modder was a billion dollar company, he would have his staff of lawyers and snitches and let them handle all this.
But for a private person? It is an impossible task even just to monitor the workshop 24/7.


This leaves me with 2 possible explanations:

A) The responsible project managers are incompetent outsiders, and their superiors are obliged to cancel the project and do actual reparations by fully refunding all customers and reimburse the affected mod authors

or

B) This was a firm part of the business plan, to silently take the money regardless where it comes from - speculating that the majority of modders will stop bothering with research and complaints at some point.

Asyrin wrote: If you only work with free mods, what do you care if a small percentage of mods slip through the cracks and make a few bucks on your work? I mean...put your pride down and think logically. Are you really SO petty?

Now, if it was a wildly successful mod that made a high amount of money that's a different story....but those impostors will be easy to spot simply by being successful.

My post talked about some of what you mentioned.

They wouldn't be able to control it, its up to modders to know if they're content is being used or not.

Game breaking mods: You'd have to go after the modder himself, goodluck claiming that money back. Steam will never get a lawsuit and less millions get screwed.

Having it on a free timed demo is the best way to solve some of the issues with bad mods or people trying to make a quick buck. They should have easy to roll back versions to stop mods from breaking people's games. They could even take down versions with known bugs to prevent others from purchasing it.

The issue is that there is almost no way to control every single mod, to make sure each and every mod is up to standards for dlcs.

[twhelan]

In response to post #24717714. #24718959, #24719964 are all replies on the same post.

KaiserDeathIV wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: Lots of people get paid for hobbies. Ever been to a craft fair. Isn't the dream for anybody to make a living doing something they love.

printerkop wrote: don't deserve it a bit harsh, but you might advice them to earn money through one of the gameengine sites nowadays like the Unreal store or Unity store, and mod in their free time.

Every single hobby in history has become a job for some. All it takes is the structure with which to make a living from doing so. I dare anyone to to name a "hobby" which had the potential to generate revenue, that has not suffered this fate for some.