Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[Reaper0021]

In response to post #24644689. #24645379, #24645579, #24645684, #24646054 are all replies on the same post.

Vidicus wrote:

PharCry wrote: I'm sorry if something I mentioned came off as offensive, but what words did I put in your mouth? And how was I being aggressive? Don't post things without making references.

This is very, very simple as far as I can see (for now at least). Valve is giving modders the opportunity to ask money for their content, their work, their time AFTER their own work or schooling is done and they have time to work on the crazy stuff that we download and use with only giving them a simple thanks. Users decide whether or not they pay for said content. The field will level itself from there. If no one wants to pay for it, they won't pay for it.

Creators have the option of not posting content on Steam Workshop OR the Nexus and make it available elsewhere. This is not the end of the world, but something that needs watched as it is a VERY new thing, and is change, which the vast majority of people are scared to death of for some reason. Be mindful, watch as things evolve, and inform the community appropriately. End of story. There's nothing aggressive about that. It's mindful, and supportive. Appreciate what you have, and help these content creators to expand their horizons and build even more quality content. Some are acting as if this is solely for the benfit of Valve and the Nexus. Yes the price model is questionable (I mentioned that in another post, sorry), but change takes time. Give it some thought and consideration.

speash wrote: I'm not affraid of change, it's just that nothing ever changes for the good as soon as money comes into play.

PharCry wrote: That's a very general statement speash, one with no relevant arguments. Again, another person shooting from the hip... It's what people do best on the Internet. People need to gather some constructive thoughts and criticisms about this situation, which some have been. Trolling and random one-two lines statements that have a mild similarity with what's being discussed in the OP are not helpful.

Paragon777 wrote: The "change" thing is an excuse.. Yeah I get its reality also..
This is effectively now a business and that wont stop or protect people from people because by contradicting their own stance on profiting from their content opens them to a dozen versions of litigation. Let alone no form of quality control with a mod in nature causing instability or damage to a game. The distribution of profits lend to sloppy get rich quick modding rather then paying modders for real work; You effectively just came up with a whole 'nother nickle and dime scheme and turned modders into a sweatshop.
You might as well sell water as medicine to people.
The reality is now the down and dirty of law and greed will be involved. If not here and now (which is ALREADY happening Via Chesko and now the SKYui situation)
The reality here and now is not change its Laws and greed. These will drive the direction this goes in. I dont know how to put it. Call it change; but its manipulation...

Change is like telling me about Change while the forest burns down around us.

It IS the end unless some change is done. Why do people not get it; its business 101.
In order to protect the final structure if one even comes about, it will require a new form of control that will certainly effect real modders and places like Nexus.
Nexus modders will be the new pirates by definition..
Abuse, slander, and claims wont just happen at Steam because of how sloppy this is but will then be brought to nexus. As someone on Nexus for example questionably post something simi similar to a best seller on WS but in reality is hardly noticeable... Well then they would have to effectively stop the nexus modder as its cutting into their profit. So a system and a line between sanctioned modding and non sanctioned will come about...
Which is why to avoid that it seems they plan on bringing out an entire new system or set of tools for the next games in order to keep it bound to Steamworkshop only.
So ie it kills modding.

I've been in forum posts before with "Pharcry" and can tell you this: He is just blunt and to the point. Not trying to be overly 'aggressive'...that's just his style. I read what's been posted here...no words in mouth. That's just his way. Kudos given. Edited April 25, 2015 by Reaper0021

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24645764. #24646449, #24646594 are all replies on the same post.

volfin wrote:

Azradun wrote: Before, no one had the motivation to scam people, now they will have one.

PharCry wrote: If no one wants to pay for the mod, they don't have to. What are you even talking about Azradun? And the 24 hour policy is there as well. I swear I'm done after this post unless I open my browser again...

Let us also not forget Skyrim was a bugged out mess of a game when it was released. Continuous digs for payment in order to have a finished game will be next.

[HalcyonAnd0n]

In response to post #24643354. #24643854, #24643949, #24644484, #24645019, #24645409, #24645524, #24646134 are all replies on the same post.

joz23 wrote:

Qrygg wrote: First of all, no one is forcing you to buy mods, they are a 100% optional part of PC gaming.

Second of all, Nexus is not "in bed" with Valve and Bethesda. Nexus happens to be the largest or one of the largest mod repositories for TESV: Skyrim, and it would be foolish to not have relations with Bethesda, who created the game, and Valve, who distribute the game. If Bethesda got pissed at Nexus, they could issue a Cease and Desist letter for using trademarked/copyrighted material. They support the modding community because, frankly, it means better reviews and more playing of their games on the PC platform; and they don't have to pay a dime of it.

If anything I choose to view the cut from Valve as a thumb-in-cheek move: "Valve is allowing modders to charge money for their mods? Well let's take a piece of the pie, no need for Valve to grow rich off modders hard work!"

PharCry wrote: Qrygg is right, no one is forcing you to download and install content that is not included with the game itself.

But the cut Valve is asking, is a bit absurd... 75% for something they never even touched as far as the game goes? That seems a bit shady IMO...

sh0d4n wrote:

First of all, no one is forcing you to buy mods, they are a 100% optional part of PC gaming.

100% optional FREE part of PC gaming.. Until yesterday.

Second of all, Nexus is not "in bed" with Valve and Bethesda. Nexus happens to be the largest or one of the largest mod repositories for TESV: Skyrim, and it would be foolish to not have relations with Bethesda, who created the game, and Valve, who distribute the game. If Bethesda got pissed at Nexus, they could issue a Cease and Desist letter for using trademarked/copyrighted material. They support the modding community because, frankly, it means better reviews and more playing of their games on the PC platform; and they don't have to pay a dime of it.

So its better to sponge as the community slowly dies?

We are talking a slow death here. May as well take what I can as the ship goes down?

I honestly dont know what to believe. All I know for sure is that this is not good for the modding freedom we have all come love. I dont understand why so many are blind to where it is clearly going to end up. Its like they resigned themselve to the fact that its going to happen no matter what, so the'll just position themselves to benefit from it while they can.

People really are selfish. They are only thinking about the now, not the future generations of modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The truth in this is painful to read. Look what Apple did to Linux. Fight the good fight people!

Paragon777 wrote: He's not wrong..
Its not about just complaining or being as simple as "not having to buy" hes talking the truth about how it's heading and what it means. He is simply saying the natural cause and effect of things that WILL 100% happen unless this is reversed.
Its just business and statistics. It will dmg modding.
Sure it will still be around; because it was always a tight nit community however that's IF they don't find a way to eliminate non sanctioned modding as it could be made non sanctioned modding under this coarse in order to protect themselves with this model.
This entire model can be used as a way to profit off modders and at the same time turn all non financial generating contributions to be labeled as some form of piracy..
Since the Publisher is not getting their chunk and or it distracts from their sales.. Do you understand for example a nexus mod could conflict with a well known steam sold mod this would cause conflict that would require actions.
He came up with a valid point; in order to control quality and content because this has opened a mass tear in space of potential lawsuits they will force it to be workshop bound. Let alone by nature with current systems it encourages low quality and sloppy work or then the fact that mods in general brake your game unless you're a master at it lol. Let alone no possible way to even CHECK the quality of a mod yet your still charging for it?
IF MORE control was given to modders via better software tools this could be lessened. OR if Beth took the mods in then looked over them and made sure they worked; by then releasing their own version then giving you your cut.
Its 101 stuff.
Its great to be hopeful and all but this is the agenda. Its was not Val/Beth saying boy gee wiz lets give back to our community... Matter of fact its more like well lets get this "blank" storm over with before the next games come in. This will net them double profits when it does.. Its about Profit...
This is nickle and dimming after a slew of a yr plus now of this kind of thing escalating by companies. At the same time it is literally almost like setting p a sweat shoo lol.

At the same time the current system encourages and rewards fast and sloppy work; it appeals to the get rich quick types; not the modders who work hard and should get something. Even then tech they are using them for cheap content that makes them hundreds and the modders nothing. Again Keep in mind this is LEADING to the next 2 games.
You will get 1000s of greedy people suddenly participating and the slander, he/she stole, used, etc will be impossible to ignore.
The patchiness of making such claims when in these cases people use the same resources; of which none belong to either in the first place is hilarious. But because your being paid this changes that all. Its contradicts to the publishers own stance and IS open to legality.
I mean my god Chesko already got hit day one by a claim; legit or not.. When the get rich YT/twitch wannabe desperadoes join in on this it going to be all hell braking lose. And if they don't start now they will for sure on next release.
At the same time we then have the current debacle going down right now..
SKYui is required for most modders that are new to even intermediate at this stage for MCM capability alone.
Now he has pulled out from nexus (well all future development.) A Core mod needed now for most mods.
At the same time lol even SKyui makes use of SKSE... So SKYui profiting off of not just mod users but modders should be forced to pay SKSE should they not. Im just using this as a small example; but this is the "blank"fest that will be coming.
And you know what who is to say that Beth should not have included their own caked in system like SKui has for modders. Because by not doing so and no controlling profit from both markets they are effectively able to nickle and dime people on a whole 'nother lvl!!!!!
Which is why I said if they are going through with this they are goign to have to give access to much better tools to the communities next time around.

Your not wrong either but you are not at all looking at the reality of the business model nor the effect it will have. The loopholes that will open over this kind of exchange BECAUSE of the BAD people will be so large that if they truly want to keep something functional up they will by nature be required to consolidate their set up; which means the end of nexus and the like.
(Unless of coarse they have something going on behind the scene; which imo is their own business and non of ours.) But you give to much credit to thinking they will just let things stand as is with the way things will go. They might scratch each others back; im not saying its not possible.
But again its the legalities that would by defacto lead to it having to be ended. .ie you cant have your cake and eat it too.
This then leads to a future of companies now getting their content from players at Sweatshop value while they company makes bank. And in order to keep order they would have to lock down any modding not going through official channels as a form of piracy.

Why do you play this down so simple as a god forbid they let modders add an ability to pay.
LOL its an agenda not a handout..

Yes I know English but im bad at it..

shadowslasher410 wrote: You... did read the entire thing right? even the part where it says this:

"I was not under an NDA, I was simply told "we haven’t announced this information publicly yet, so we appreciate you keeping this under wraps for now.". If you believe I should have outed them right there and then and completely destroyed my relationship with Valve and Bethesda then I think you're being naive."

Oh, and by the way, if you think Valve is the first to want to profit off of modders' blood, sweat and tears, you're sorely mistaken. If you Google ANY sufficiently popular mod, I can guarantee you that there's gonna be pirates selling what was supposed to be a FREE MOD for MONEY. And guess what? NONE of that money goes to the mod author, and there are more than a fair few number of morons who will buy it...

sunshinenbrick wrote: How about a model where jobs are offered to the best and most talented modders? Then really will see some inovation in the way companies interact with communities.

Modders. Choose. To. Ask. For. Payment.

"He's not wrong..
Its not about just complaining or being as simple as "not having to buy" hes talking the truth about how it's heading and what it means. He is simply saying the natural cause and effect of things that WILL 100% happen unless this is reversed."

And what will happen, "...100% unless this is reversed,"? Steam Workshop and the Nexus are not the only places that host mods, just the most dominant. Not only that, modders ASK FOR WHAT THEY WANT. If you don't want to pay, don't pay, not having a particular mod doesn't give your life less meaning or take away from your gaming experience as it was intended (the old instant gratification issue, which so many seem to feel they are entitled to have).

Hell, as I've said before, if you want something bad enough, go pick up some tutorials on Blender and NifSkope (both free pieces of software, by the way), learn how to use the Creation Kit, and make your own mod! Wow, what a concept! Maybe after you put 100+ hours into a project that you love and enjoy, you might consider releasing it to the Nexus or Steam Workshop, or maybe both, because you think it's fairly well polished. Then you get the messages about bugs, simple issues with textures because XYZ user didn't install it properly, or the download may have just been corrupt, or there was an unexpected conflict with an obscure mod, etc. Do you see where I'm going with this?

We as users, regulate what happens. If we don't want XYZ mod in question (i.e. don't deem it worthy of our money), we don't download it. The modder then either A) does nothing or maybe pulls it down, B) reduces the price or C) increases the quality. How is this so hard to follow? Am I missing something here? Because as far as I can tell I don't think I am...

[thestoryteller01]

Bethesda simply plans to exploit modders as a cheap external workforce.

 

There is no other expression for it.

[fetusthebard]

In response to post #24644384.

Tigon_3rd wrote:

Chesko supported the ordeal. They are as much to blame for the reaction as Bethesda and Valve are. Our actions have consequences. When Italy decided it was going to be a part of the genocidal megalomaniacs that started WWII Mussolini made that decision willingly and with full knowledge that there would be outcry. So have the mod authors that supported this.

I'm not supporting harassment, and I'm certainly not angry at Chesko. I'm simply stating that they knew full well what they were getting into, and knew that they were siding with people that wanted to destroy free mods (and they do, Valve and Beth would be idiots not to, think of the cash to be made). This is fair, and if they were displeased with the results of their actions, good. In the future perhaps they won't side with money grubbing companies that care more about profit than the satisfaction of their users.

Like a f*#@ing cable company.

[DogtoothCG]

I think the topic that needs clarification is the "service providers" topic, and how people can construe the Nexus as being complicit in this whole affair.

 

The thing to keep in mind, is that these service providers are in no real way attached to the monetization process, and make no money off of it, outside of what the author decides. I believe the number is like 5% of the Valves (?) cut that an author can authorize to go to a third party. In the past, this has been most prominent in the TF2 and Dota2 workshops when Polycount.com was introduced as a "service provider". They saw no direct financing from it; but due to the enormous amount of content being produced by polycount members (see Polycounts dedicated tf2 and dota 2 subforums), they were included in that list. So when an author releases something for pay on the workshop, they can select which service provider they would like to be supported by the revenue.

 

In this case, if this does take off (and valve stops removing links to the nexus), any authors who appreciate the community and style here, may choose to have a portion of revenue put towards the Nexus as a whole.

 

Though like Robin said, I'm not sure if nexus will remain a service provider in the eyes of valve after turning down the offer.

[dohlbrak]

that was a good read. thank you for your blog posts, for your openness in all of this, and the integrity in which you have written. i love the nexus and everyone i have come across here, all the talent and the amazing creativity here. thank you to all the modders as well, this is such an amazing community.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24643354. #24643854, #24643949, #24644484, #24645019, #24645409, #24645524, #24646134, #24646729 are all replies on the same post.

joz23 wrote:

Qrygg wrote: First of all, no one is forcing you to buy mods, they are a 100% optional part of PC gaming.

Second of all, Nexus is not "in bed" with Valve and Bethesda. Nexus happens to be the largest or one of the largest mod repositories for TESV: Skyrim, and it would be foolish to not have relations with Bethesda, who created the game, and Valve, who distribute the game. If Bethesda got pissed at Nexus, they could issue a Cease and Desist letter for using trademarked/copyrighted material. They support the modding community because, frankly, it means better reviews and more playing of their games on the PC platform; and they don't have to pay a dime of it.

If anything I choose to view the cut from Valve as a thumb-in-cheek move: "Valve is allowing modders to charge money for their mods? Well let's take a piece of the pie, no need for Valve to grow rich off modders hard work!"

PharCry wrote: Qrygg is right, no one is forcing you to download and install content that is not included with the game itself.

But the cut Valve is asking, is a bit absurd... 75% for something they never even touched as far as the game goes? That seems a bit shady IMO...

sh0d4n wrote:

First of all, no one is forcing you to buy mods, they are a 100% optional part of PC gaming.

100% optional FREE part of PC gaming.. Until yesterday.

Second of all, Nexus is not "in bed" with Valve and Bethesda. Nexus happens to be the largest or one of the largest mod repositories for TESV: Skyrim, and it would be foolish to not have relations with Bethesda, who created the game, and Valve, who distribute the game. If Bethesda got pissed at Nexus, they could issue a Cease and Desist letter for using trademarked/copyrighted material. They support the modding community because, frankly, it means better reviews and more playing of their games on the PC platform; and they don't have to pay a dime of it.

So its better to sponge as the community slowly dies?

We are talking a slow death here. May as well take what I can as the ship goes down?

I honestly dont know what to believe. All I know for sure is that this is not good for the modding freedom we have all come love. I dont understand why so many are blind to where it is clearly going to end up. Its like they resigned themselve to the fact that its going to happen no matter what, so the'll just position themselves to benefit from it while they can.

People really are selfish. They are only thinking about the now, not the future generations of modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The truth in this is painful to read. Look what Apple did to Linux. Fight the good fight people!

Paragon777 wrote: He's not wrong..
Its not about just complaining or being as simple as "not having to buy" hes talking the truth about how it's heading and what it means. He is simply saying the natural cause and effect of things that WILL 100% happen unless this is reversed.
Its just business and statistics. It will dmg modding.
Sure it will still be around; because it was always a tight nit community however that's IF they don't find a way to eliminate non sanctioned modding as it could be made non sanctioned modding under this coarse in order to protect themselves with this model.
This entire model can be used as a way to profit off modders and at the same time turn all non financial generating contributions to be labeled as some form of piracy..
Since the Publisher is not getting their chunk and or it distracts from their sales.. Do you understand for example a nexus mod could conflict with a well known steam sold mod this would cause conflict that would require actions.
He came up with a valid point; in order to control quality and content because this has opened a mass tear in space of potential lawsuits they will force it to be workshop bound. Let alone by nature with current systems it encourages low quality and sloppy work or then the fact that mods in general brake your game unless you're a master at it lol. Let alone no possible way to even CHECK the quality of a mod yet your still charging for it?
IF MORE control was given to modders via better software tools this could be lessened. OR if Beth took the mods in then looked over them and made sure they worked; by then releasing their own version then giving you your cut.
Its 101 stuff.
Its great to be hopeful and all but this is the agenda. Its was not Val/Beth saying boy gee wiz lets give back to our community... Matter of fact its more like well lets get this "blank" storm over with before the next games come in. This will net them double profits when it does.. Its about Profit...
This is nickle and dimming after a slew of a yr plus now of this kind of thing escalating by companies. At the same time it is literally almost like setting p a sweat shoo lol.

At the same time the current system encourages and rewards fast and sloppy work; it appeals to the get rich quick types; not the modders who work hard and should get something. Even then tech they are using them for cheap content that makes them hundreds and the modders nothing. Again Keep in mind this is LEADING to the next 2 games.
You will get 1000s of greedy people suddenly participating and the slander, he/she stole, used, etc will be impossible to ignore.
The patchiness of making such claims when in these cases people use the same resources; of which none belong to either in the first place is hilarious. But because your being paid this changes that all. Its contradicts to the publishers own stance and IS open to legality.
I mean my god Chesko already got hit day one by a claim; legit or not.. When the get rich YT/twitch wannabe desperadoes join in on this it going to be all hell braking lose. And if they don't start now they will for sure on next release.
At the same time we then have the current debacle going down right now..
SKYui is required for most modders that are new to even intermediate at this stage for MCM capability alone.
Now he has pulled out from nexus (well all future development.) A Core mod needed now for most mods.
At the same time lol even SKyui makes use of SKSE... So SKYui profiting off of not just mod users but modders should be forced to pay SKSE should they not. Im just using this as a small example; but this is the "blank"fest that will be coming.
And you know what who is to say that Beth should not have included their own caked in system like SKui has for modders. Because by not doing so and no controlling profit from both markets they are effectively able to nickle and dime people on a whole 'nother lvl!!!!!
Which is why I said if they are going through with this they are goign to have to give access to much better tools to the communities next time around.

Your not wrong either but you are not at all looking at the reality of the business model nor the effect it will have. The loopholes that will open over this kind of exchange BECAUSE of the BAD people will be so large that if they truly want to keep something functional up they will by nature be required to consolidate their set up; which means the end of nexus and the like.
(Unless of coarse they have something going on behind the scene; which imo is their own business and non of ours.) But you give to much credit to thinking they will just let things stand as is with the way things will go. They might scratch each others back; im not saying its not possible.
But again its the legalities that would by defacto lead to it having to be ended. .ie you cant have your cake and eat it too.
This then leads to a future of companies now getting their content from players at Sweatshop value while they company makes bank. And in order to keep order they would have to lock down any modding not going through official channels as a form of piracy.

Why do you play this down so simple as a god forbid they let modders add an ability to pay.
LOL its an agenda not a handout..

Yes I know English but im bad at it..

shadowslasher410 wrote: You... did read the entire thing right? even the part where it says this:

"I was not under an NDA, I was simply told "we haven’t announced this information publicly yet, so we appreciate you keeping this under wraps for now.". If you believe I should have outed them right there and then and completely destroyed my relationship with Valve and Bethesda then I think you're being naive."

Oh, and by the way, if you think Valve is the first to want to profit off of modders' blood, sweat and tears, you're sorely mistaken. If you Google ANY sufficiently popular mod, I can guarantee you that there's gonna be pirates selling what was supposed to be a FREE MOD for MONEY. And guess what? NONE of that money goes to the mod author, and there are more than a fair few number of morons who will buy it...

sunshinenbrick wrote: How about a model where jobs are offered to the best and most talented modders? Then really will see some inovation in the way companies interact with communities.

PharCry wrote: Modders. Choose. To. Ask. For. Payment.

"He's not wrong..
Its not about just complaining or being as simple as "not having to buy" hes talking the truth about how it's heading and what it means. He is simply saying the natural cause and effect of things that WILL 100% happen unless this is reversed."

And what will happen, "...100% unless this is reversed,"? Steam Workshop and the Nexus are not the only places that host mods, just the most dominant. Not only that, modders ASK FOR WHAT THEY WANT. If you don't want to pay, don't pay, not having a particular mod doesn't give your life less meaning or take away from your gaming experience as it was intended (the old instant gratification issue, which so many seem to feel they are entitled to have).

Hell, as I've said before, if you want something bad enough, go pick up some tutorials on Blender and NifSkope (both free pieces of software, by the way), learn how to use the Creation Kit, and make your own mod! Wow, what a concept! Maybe after you put 100+ hours into a project that you love and enjoy, you might consider releasing it to the Nexus or Steam Workshop, or maybe both, because you think it's fairly well polished. Then you get the messages about bugs, simple issues with textures because XYZ user didn't install it properly, or the download may have just been corrupt, or there was an unexpected conflict with an obscure mod, etc. Do you see where I'm going with this?

We as users, regulate what happens. If we don't want XYZ mod in question (i.e. don't deem it worthy of our money), we don't download it. The modder then either A) does nothing or maybe pulls it down, B) reduces the price or C) increases the quality. How is this so hard to follow? Am I missing something here? Because as far as I can tell I don't think I am...

The problem is that it will turn "free modders" into criminals.

Please see: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/esa-preserving-old-video-game-consoles-museums-tantamount-illegal-hacking-1495805

[Psijonica]

As you paint yourself as the saviour of the free modding community you are not fooling me. The only thing you are upset at is that they didn't offer you a bigger slice of the pie and invite you to the table. You may fool the kids today but by no means are as innocent as you are proclaiming to be. You got caught with your pants down and now you are scrambling.

 

Am I going to close all my account? No, not yet. But as soon as there is an alternative choice you can bet I will choose it.

 

AND STOP PESTERING ME FOR MONEY!

 

No Endorsements, No Permissions, No Donations. 100% free mods 4-ever, one way or another.

[jimmyforhero]

Dark0ne, thank you for everything you've done, the long thoughts you have taken, the hardships and the cancellations of your own holiday (i'm so sorry-there will be many more holidays, be strong!), and the inevitable insanity that all of this ensues.

 

I'm not religious, so I never had my full heart/spirit in anything ever before until i started modding skyrim with FREE mods from really really great authors, and in this path, I never felt so happy, so fulfilled to see such passion, such selfless passion/art given so freely. This is crazy, so f'ing crazy. That so much is given, so freely. It's like the Monet in museums, the great works of art for all to see.

 

Let's not forget that this is part of the magic, that it is free.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, thank you. Thank you for your loyalty and strength and commitment.