Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[joeriz9]

In response to post #24761834. #24762054 is also a reply to the same post.

greggorypeccary wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is why it is also about our experience of art... and we should be careful we don't buy into buying "art" for art's sake.

That is to say art is a very subjective thing to experience and why our relationship with it matters. I buy Bethesda games because they enrich my life, not just cuz they are sold as such

Mod makers who want to be artists, Should make a living of it, and proof it by making a mod that's worth the while.

The creator of falskaar purely made Falskaar to show what he was capable of, and got a real job out of it.

[Fowldragon]

In response to post #24742594. #24742759, #24742849, #24742924, #24742934, #24743009, #24743059, #24743149, #24743254, #24743299, #24743359, #24743449, #24743474, #24743514, #24743524, #24743584, #24743604, #24743624, #24743724, #24743739, #24743769, #24743774, #24743884, #24743929, #24743984, #24744049, #24744139, #24744159, #24744279, #24744479, #24744519, #24744574, #24744719, #24744789, #24744794, #24744929, #24744964, #24744989, #24745004, #24745054, #24745174, #24745279, #24745339, #24745449, #24745494, #24745729, #24745734, #24745839, #24745939, #24746154, #24746294, #24746544, #24746674, #24746704, #24746719, #24747064, #24747169, #24747379, #24747459, #24747514, #24747554, #24747774, #24747799, #24747909, #24748204, #24748329, #24748344, #24748534, #24748849, #24749024, #24749029, #24749224, #24749279, #24749419, #24750314, #24751879, #24752384, #24752494, #24752744, #24753274, #24753624, #24753979, #24754244, #24754444, #24754479, #24754484, #24754654, #24755899, #24761019 are all replies on the same post.

FavoredSoul wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: Sorry you feel that way FavoredSoul.

We'll survive with or without you.

We'll also probably be a lot more cautious with our praise and endorsements. And with our trust.

popcorn71 wrote: If your complaining about the hate being spewed on steam then why post files to the steam workshop? If Valve will not moderate their comment section and you don't like what people are saying about your mod then just don't use the workshop. Not that I'm excusing the tolls, but why put your self in a possession where you are subjected to their hate in the first place?

=== Edit ===
To clarify, I have not read ANYTHING on steam for several day. I currently have steam offline and firewalled. This all just seems too convenient to me and I don't really trust Valve right now.

Orgaya wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with you.

This whole experience has taught me that this modding community is a massive s#*! stain.

FavoredSoul wrote: Fact is, the trolls are everywhere, workshop or not. nexus sites just do a good job of throwing a cloth over it. But its still there underneath.

And you're right. I will delete all my stuff of the workshop cause it is just awful over there.

dunmermagic wrote: I'm sorry you feel that way, but most major modders were against this. If you had some trolls get on your nerves, well that sucks, and if you feel the need to take down your mods, that's your choice. But nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything. That's the way it's worked for 13 years, and it's worked out pretty well if I do say so myself.

jmenaru wrote: I agree with you 100% FavoredSoul. I never expected Bethesda to remove this just because of the negative backlash, but I guess I was wrong.

FavoredSoul wrote: @dunmermagic

"nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything"


My point entirely.

Mod-users are happy to use you and your mods while you're offering, and then just as happily ready to throw you away without second thought.

You know what that is an example of? Taking another human being for granted for your own selfish needs.

phantompally76 wrote: Bah, stop acting like you're a victim.

6 days ago, selling your mods was illegal.

Axeface wrote: I completely agree with everything you said favouredsoul. This farse has shown what this community can be, it's like a pit of vipers. One thing is certain, I am disgusted by this community now and I dont want anything to do with it.

Now, I havent done anything really noteworthy for skyrim (althought I did take a very long time and effort making my small mods), but I have done extensive modding in other games, thousands of hours. The steam change got me interested again - I started drawing, I loaded up zbrush. I for one was really excited by the steam change and the quality mods we would have seen from it. It needed to be tweaked because is wasnt done well, but overall I think we are really missing out - both authors and users.

"hahahahahahahahha. Its hard enough getting people to CLICK A BUTTON TO ENDORSE A MOD, you think for a second people are going to strain their finger to use a donate button to give me their 5c? Reality is right here buddy, where have you been living?"

This is so true. I looked at my mods stats on the workshop that has 90,000 current subscribers - most days I get 0 'likes', on 'spike' days where I get a lot of dls (like a few days ago with 400 subs) I got 3 likes. I dont care honestly, but it shows just how sincere this 'we like to donate!' argument is.

"Valve and Bethesda certainly fcuked things up, royally, for a long time to come. All I want to do is remove my mods cause at least half of the hateful, selfish people out there just don't deserve anything at all. "

I was about to remove my mods too. Obviously mine are nothing mods, not like yours, but one has almost 100,000 subs. I just dont feel like I want to be part of this community anymore now.

EDIT: I'm removing my mods, "phantompally76" and his comments has pushed me over the edge.

Orgaya wrote: @FavoredSoul

You're not alone with that. Have you seen other mod authors' pages that decided to use the system? It was a real gong show. Constant feedback of people acting like they are entitled to free content.

@Everyone Else

If this experience has taught us anything, it's that no one deserves free stuff. We certainly haven't proven it.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ phantompally76

If i'm acting like a victim its because you, just now, made me a victim. I am a victim of your hate.

So someone wants to make 50c on a future mod that WOULDNT HAVE EXISTED IF NOT FOR THE SCHEME.

Mod authors are, and always will be, victims of mod-user hate. The hate that has been written for mod-authors here. The hate that has been written for mod-authors on steam. The hate that you wrote against me just right now, and all of the hate yet to be written.

nbtc971 wrote: You act as though someone hired you for a job. It was your decision and own desire to mod, no one asked you or forced you. In addition, when you created your content, you had to think at the time that you were doing it for free, so, if you don't want to do it for free any longer, then don't do it. I can't really blame you for that.

Anyone who creates anything for public consumption has to know that lots of people are entitled jerks. If you didn't, then I'm sure that was quite the wake up call. I haven't read all the comments, I'm sure there are a lot of fools saying stupid stuff, but that's the world we live in. Some will choose to punish those who are grateful due to the comments of the lowest denominator and I think that sucks, but, I can't really complain about it because it's not my time and effort that's being taken to task.

jfisha wrote: I'm just going to throw this in there, but I've personally never complained or wrote s#*! about a mod author because their mods are free. You can't complain about something you're getting for free, right?

Of course, that's not true for everyone, but with a free mod if you hid somebodies comment or told them to "f off", I'd be right there with ya.

However, if I paid for your mod, you'll f'nng take it and like it. You're no longer a person putting up free content, you're like the telephone company now, and I'm a very nice person but the lady that answer's the phone there absolutely hates me.

SkepticalJoker wrote: FavoredSoul,

No one is forcing you to make mods. If it's not fun, then why the hell are you doing it? Find another hobby, for goodness sake! And yes, it IS a hobby. It always has been. Nothing has changed on that front. Valve and Bethesda tried to do exactly what you claim mod users are doing: Take advantage of you. They wanted you to labor, then sell your labor to users, and keep 75% of the proceeds. The only people that win are Valve and Bethesda. Mod users may use your labor by playtesting and enjoying your mods, but they aren't making a profit off your work either. They're not asking you to make mods that they can then sell, while kicking back a measly 25%.

This idea could have worked if the kickback was fair and there was some modicum of assurance to the consumers that mods would be properly curated. As it stood, mod authors were getting screwed, consumers were getting screwed, and the legality of it all was questionable to say the least. Valve and Bethesda did one thing right, and that was to shut this absurd experiment down.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

You speak wise words.

phantompally76 wrote: FavoredSoul, I don't hate you.

I'm just very disappointed with you.

I don't expect you to lose any sleep over that.

I'm not going to lose any sleep, either.

Orgaya wrote: That isn't what the complaint here is. It's this idea that modders should never be given the option to be paid because the mod-user is entitled to free content for no reason. This simply isn't true or fair. And it's wholly disrespectful and incredibly insensitive to treat those who are giving handouts like dogshit.

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is a rather minority stance here. I think you will find most people at the Nexus are in favour of the option to give back to those they want to give back to.

EDIT: Isn't it actually technicaly, probably illegal to be even having these conversations now Bethesda has pulled the rug?

jfisha wrote: I disagree, Orgaya.

We were given the content. That's not a feeling of entitlement.

If you and I were hanging out and I gave you one of my beers, I can't tell the rest of my friends that you're an entitled piece of crap because you took it.

Let's not forget that up until three days ago, most of us here thought all the mod authors were perfectly fine with the way things were going. We've been thriving for four years, for Christ's sake.

I don't think that point gets brought up enough

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

Its so flawed.

THE ENTIRE MODDING SCENE IS ABOUT CHOICE.

I make a choice to make mods.
People make a choice to consume them.
I make a choice to charge 50c for a particular mod...

Yeah, no one asked me to be a modder. In just the same way, nobody asked you to be a consumer.

I have a choice to charge 50c, you have a choice on whether or not to pay 50c.

What gives you the right to come along and say you may not charge 50c?

Orgaya wrote: @phantompally76

You're disappointed in him... because he wanted to be compensated for his work. Ugh. It's just a game. You don't need mods. Sorry. You don't. None of us do.

phantompally76 wrote: Orgaya, did you even read what you just typed?


I agree with you. We don't NEED mods.

We don't NEED to buy them, either.

BadYeti wrote: Now imagine having all those mod users as customers. Having to solve their insane issues because you accepted their money. :~O It's the stuff of nightmares.

digitaltrucker wrote: Indeed, once they've paid for it they DO become entitled at that point.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

I'm aware that a 75% cut for valve and Bethesda made those guys appear greedy to a lot of people, but at the end of the day, its for the mod-author to decide whether or not the contract is fair, not the consumer. The decision gets made when the choice is made on whether or not to sell. I know that there are a lot of people who were ok with paying mod-authors for their work, they just had a huge issue with paying valve/bethesda that 75% for doing nothing but facilitate the exchange. But um... that's how businesses operate. There is ALWAYS going to be a middleman.

I also think you are unaware of the volume of money that was actually being made by the paid mods scheme. Even with a measly 25% cut, the money being generated was PHENOMENAL.

That mod-author with the skull face armor being sold at 1.99 per unit? that made at least 2100 sales before it was taken down. That's 4179$ of which 25% was his for a total of 1044$. Even after losing a few % to fees, that's a damn LOT of money for a few days of sales.

If that was you making that money in 4 days, you wouldn't give a f- for 25%. You'd be more than happy to take what you got. Don't think for a second that if you were in a position to sell mods for that kind of money, that people wanted, you wouldn't leap at the chance.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ BadYeti

And it is because of this that this ecosystem of different memebrs of a community is so important and unique. Bet you it was a f'ing nightmare here when things started out... come to think of it, there are still many volatile situations. One thing the people who run this site have compared to Steam and Bethesda, is experience in dealing with the massively dynamic world of modding.

nbtc971 wrote: I didn't come along and say anything, because it's not my place, however Bethesda, in this case, did create the very tools you used to create your mod. They also created the game you are modding. Obviously they have the right to tell you if it's ok to profit from their work. I personally didn't make a single comment in favor or against the system. I did however listen and read opinions from my favorite youtubers and I felt like they made some valid points.

If a system can be put in that is fair to everyone, then fine. I don't think gaming companies and Valve should take 75% of the freakin profits! I also want assurances that the mod is going to work when I buy it and after any other updates. In addition, I would want any mod conflicts to be reconciled in a timely manner, or eliminated all together. Right now I just don't think modders are going to be able to provide the type of service required for a paid product. At least not with Skyrim. For it work, we might have to have a new system for the next game.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: My paid non-internet office job, which I make my living off of, is to listen to people complain all day.

If you can't handle a few trolls, then you shouldn't do anything involving the public. Everyone gets trolled. I was bullied as a kid but I grew from it. At least the people on your Steam page can't physically attack you.

You go on about entitlement, but you sound pretty entitled to the recognition of your mods. Mods get recognition on their merit of usefulness, not purely because you put a lot of effort into it (don't get me wrong, the fact that you put effort into it has merit too).

If you want to make money off of your artistic talents, make a game. I enjoyed webdesign and in a few work instances I made websites.

Don't try to make money off of an open source community. That's another thing, and it's quite an unethical thing.

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

A lot of people keep making that argument, that this system goes down the toilet when mods break, cause you've paid money and there must be assured of a certain level of quality assurance.

well, user review systems have always existed to inform users about the sensibility of product purchases. Why have people suddenly forgotten about this?

Secondly, the mods that would have gotten the most sales are the cosmetic ones, the weapons, armors and skin mods. These mods seldom break, and any mod-author with half a brain wouldn't upload something that didn't function.

There would have been plenty of opportunists popping up all over trying to make a quick buck off of broken/ half finished mods for sure, but that brings us back to the user review system. One negative review and that mod will be exposed, it'll get buried and life will go on.

Zink6 wrote: Going to be honest with u, what kind of bottled life have u been living? U want an internet without hate? Have u been using the internet for long? U think ur the only poor type of sap to be flamed at? Bud if u cant handle this much on the internet then u need to not only stop modding but stop using the internet.

As for ur reaction. Ur the same as the the ones flaming u. U give ur points in a sarcastic sense and poke fun at the arguments that people have presented. U bring no constructive criticism. U say how u hate half the people here yet for some reason expect love in return. Knowing all this u still bother to post this comment.

Like really man ur acting like such a child. Plz grow up. This is the internet, ppl talk s#*!, if ur famous in a sense, ur going to be asked to kill yourself (this is not ok but at the same time how u going to stop it). U need to learn to ignore those ppl and work with the admins to better police the site. That's as much as u can ask or expect. If u want anything more u can go dream about it in ur sleep because if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?

nbtc971 wrote: @FavoredSoul How does a negative review make someone forget they spent money for a broken mod? Most people will care more about their hard earned money being wasted than the opportunity to leave a negative review in the hopes that it destroys a mod author.

jad31te wrote: "if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?"

I dunno, actually mod the site and start banning trolls?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Just sit back and wait for SOPA.

jfisha wrote: "You're damn straight its a mod-user vs mod-author argument."

I'll keep reiterating this until I turn blue in the face. No, it is not. Why, you ask? Because there's some mod user's that agree with you, there's some that don't. There's some mod authors that agree with you, some that don't.

There are three sides to this argument.

People who think mods should always remain free (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who think mod authors should be allowed to make money (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who will pay for good mods, but think Valve just implemented a crappy system (includes mod authors and mod users)

pvbridgeford wrote: I understand the frustration you are feeling, I'm a new modder, just learning how to mod. I've posted some small mods and rather insignificant at best. The complaints are endless from a few bad eggs, but I'm 67 now and have learned to let the s#*! hit the fan and step out of it's way. I respond to positive comments, but refuse to respond to anyone that is not at least constructive in their negativity. I hope you find it in your future to continue the great work you have been doing and find a way to enjoy the modding community again. Until then I'M Keeping all your work I've downloaded in a safe place so i'll have access to it in the future when I get a new computer.

Thanks again for all your hard work.

savagemoonlight wrote: Aren't you putting yourself up for even more abuses if people were to pay for your mod? Hey I want this sword to be green. I want it to sparkle. Hey you better give in to my demands cause I've freaking PAID for you mod, you're obligated to do as I ask.

Truth is, self-entitled abusive arsehole will always be around and I'm sorry how they've made you so cynical but paid modding is definitely not a solution to this.

roland113 wrote: Well said FavoredSoul.

You nailed it on the head, all the common negatives mod creators get a lot of as they pour their hearts into work. The 1 or 2% of people who take the time to hit the endorse button and people who want to use it to extort their requests even through they keep coming back and downloading every update you do. There are always a few trolls and angry, immature weirdos out there who ruin any online community or game.

It's easy to put up with community crap when its a paid job and you've got people plunking down monthly subscription fees, DLC or other things. Its entirely another when you're basically sharing stuff for free that you're doing for the pure passion of it.

Online game communities always schism like this when big changes hit too. Even good people get all worked up into a froth, and misinformation spreads too. Tensions rise and things become as volatile as if things were red hot discussions on religion or politics. I've seen it time and time again in the industry, and I'm even going through some stuff like this at my day job right now. ugh. Make a change in an existing system and all hell breaks loose.

It's easy to get furious at the jackasses of the world - but when all is said and done - I hope you're still able to appreciate the good community people too.

I still love working with the good people here in the Nexus community who are for the most part really cool and enthusiastic. I've met a lot of nice modders and fans from around the globe, and made quite a few really nice people here. The letters/ videos/ posted art and the helpful suggestions I get really make all the difference for me when I'm modding. It keeps me motivated and from working in a vacuum, and makes it easier to strive to improve.

For me this is basically my nightly jam sessions, and my free time to do whatever work I want, the way I want. The haters - well if they start to cross the lines I just delete them from my boards or ignore them. As for Steam - i mostly stayed away from that from the start, and will continue to do so because its community has never been the same caliber the Nexus is.

viperony wrote: I feel for you and hate to see the trolls being mean to you for your mods! But know most of us who love your mods are here to support you even with the donation button and what not your work has made a lot of us happy and we see the amazing effort you had done and the love seen in your work. Please don't listen to the bad comments or feel down because of them they can go up a tree! Don't remove the mods just because they are getting to you.

}{ellKnight wrote: @Orgaya
I'd agree with you if Bethesda were competent enough to fix their own game and make a decent UI. This hasn't been the case for years.


@FavoredSoul
People will be dicks on the internet regardless of whether they pay you or get your stuff for free. I highly doubt you'll put up with less s#*! if they can also throw in the "but I paid you for this" argument on top of all the other ones when they demand you do a certain thing a certain way. Like I said, people will be dicks on the internet.

I'm not saying some modders didn't get flamed. It isn't the right thing to do, this much is obvious for most of us and when talking about this on the different forums I directed my disappointment at Valve and Bethesda, not at the modders. Reading people's thoughts about this stuff on the forums where trolling gets you banned pretty fast I noticed that other people did the same as I did: arguing in a civil manner, not flaming modders. Did some people post s#*! on the nexus? Yes... they but were also banned for it when reported by the the rest of the community. Did some people post s#*! on steam? Yes... but most of them are still there and encouraged by other trolls. If you think putting your mod behind a pay wall on SWS will make people less rude on the steam forums you're sorely mistaken. Not to mention that the SWS is horrible for hosting skyrim mods due to the way information is baked into the save game. It can royally screw over your game and this is not even accounting for the conflicts that can pop up as mods get updated. As a user you have no control over updates.



You guys can "thank" us all you want by calling us shitstains and other names... we've done this for the past 13 years for free and it has produced amazing results and we want to preserve that. We've uploaded mods and had to put up with selfish people just like everybody else. It sucks but you have to remember that most people don't feel that way, that most people really appreciate the work we put into this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @FavoredSoul You need to look at the big picture here. That mod you said, the skull armor one, making a LOT OF MONNEEYY, it's the perfect example of why this system will harm the modding scene.
Some may say that being paid for mods will encourage mod authors to make great effort and create wonderful mods. While I think that's true, it will be the minority.
This model Valve implemented, will be filled with half assed armors and weapons, mostly cosmetics, with 0 passion and effort. Just like the app store for android. Hundreds and hundreds of stupid crap, totally tasteless and dull games, etc. The good mods will be few. The majority of people will take advantage of the brainless consumers and make no effort whatsoever for their mods. Modders will start to think and make mods with money in mind, passion being minor. It will be like a paid job, with deadlines and such.
I never thought of modding as a paid job. FOR ME, this will ruin the spirit of modding.

The Sims modding scene was DESTROYED when money got involved. A lot of sites started to exploit this, making paid mods a regular thing. Thank god its getting better, slowly.

Anyways, thats my point of view.

jfisha wrote: ValtielCurse

Let's not forget those poor souls who are scared away from sites like the Nexus just because they might have to do something other then hit "subscribe" to get a mod. Even if there's awesome free armor that blows away anything on Steam Workshop for 2 bucks, they'll still blindly pay it.

I guess that's not really much of an argument against it. Maybe those poor saps should be taken advantage of

ChizFoShiz wrote: No way I'm reading down this whole chain cause it looks scary kind of long, but I feel like chiming in.

I'm 100% with you FavoredSoul, the most disgusting part about this is authors were given an option to do something we couldn't before and it's been stripped away just because petulant people can't stand the thought of not having access to everything they "deserve".

That's all this boils down to, it's the same argument that was happening years ago over DLC, except this time you're hurting people who have shown nothing but incredible amounts of good-will to you for years instead of developers who are already being compensated.

And the worst part? Those who did want or try to be compensated are the ones being crucified as "greedy".

What's more greedy, asking for $0.99 for the project you've labored over for thousands of hours, or demanding that price shouldn't exist and I should get that for free because I always have before?

Because the answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

I've only started to share my plugins in the last couple of years but with the way the audience around the internet in general have acted I doubt I'm going to bother in future and I'm seriously considering making my current files disappear.

jfisha wrote: ChizFoShiz

This thread is not nearly as long as some of the others.

You can do what you want, man. I can understand why you're pissed and if you feel that the community at large needs to be your punching bag, then do what you need to do. A ton of people were all for you guys doing what you wanted, some of us were supportive of you guys but didn't support your decision. If you feel the whole community at large deserves your hatred because you didn't get your way, so be it

d4rkoverlord wrote: Welcome to the internet, FavoredSoul, I use your ultimate assortment mod, and I've been very pleased with it, remember that for each one of those people who complain or give you hate for not getting what they want from you, there are lots of other people who really enjoy your work.

However, as this is internet, almost everything you post, do or say is subject to criticism, good or bad, constructive or destructive, but then again words are only that. If someone doesn't like your stuff, f*** it, do what you want to do with your stuff and only attend to what you consider important.

My final comment is towards the point of getting monetary reward for your mods:

Look I understand your point since mods take effort and time, but you have to understand that when you add money to the formula things must change because the hobbie must become a job/bussiness and as such people are going to demand more from you based on what they're paying and if you can't even take a few hate comments like a man now that there's no money involved, wait till you start charging people for your stuff.

BTW I dont know if your current occupation is related to graphic design or videogames production in general but I do think that with your talent you could be dedicating to that as a formal carreer, so if you're not already into that, you should focus on it instead of those "evil comments from those poisonous people" that torment you so much because that gives a lot more revenue than you could have gotten from that infamous 25%.

fullk0ntact wrote: I usually don't post on things like this because I can typically find better uses of my time, but on this comment in particular I feel inclined to do so. It seems to me that your post only focuses on the negatives of the community and not the positives. Being pessimistic in nature, this is rare for me to say, but it is so blatantly apparent here I felt the need to point it out. Not once in my entire time on the internet have I bashed a mod author for their work, even if I didn't like what they had made. I either gave my praise or I shut up and moved on.

Additionally, although I wasn't outspoken about this "paywall" issue, I did sign a petition against it. I didn't sign it because I was against mod authors charging for their mods, I signed it because a super-corporation wanted to take 75% of the mod author's hard earned money. Well, that's not the only reason, there was also mod stealing and absolutely 0 quality control for what was posted on the workshop in the paid mods section, but I think you get the point.

Boxilot wrote: The "should we pay for mods" argument went through the sims community like hot fire about five years ago now, too. When certain modders started to hide their content behind "donations" (in other words, you had to donate said amount to get their content).

The debate was long, it was hard. We got pirate sites. People were hacked. People were run out of their homes. Yeah hard to believe about the people who play sims of all things right?

Well people didn't like that what we were doing as a community was going to benefit a few select. We had modders who did it for fun, and we had modders who did it for gain. Needless to say it ended up with EA stepping in and now all mods are free. We can finally have a proper community again where things are done in the spirit of fun and community, not in the spirit of money and undercutting and entitled customers.

If you don't do it for fun and you feel you should be compansated (honestly, the idea that you feel you need to be compansated for CHOOSING to do a certain thing with your own game is absurd to me) then in my honest opinion I don't think you should continue. You're obviously not doing it because it brings enjoyment to you anymore.

I don't mod in the skyrim scene but I mod in the sims scene and I do it for fun. I do it because I feel like I want a certain thing in my game and then I share it with my friends because they might want it too. The concept of money wasn't even an idea before Beth and Valve came rushing in, yelling at the top of their voice. Now we have modders left right and center that feel they're owed something. That they deserve compansation for what they're creating.

People spend hundreds, thousands of hours writing fanfiction, do they demand pay for that? No. Why? Because they did it for fun. They don't expect to get compansated for doing something in the spirit of the community.

ChizFoShiz wrote: jfisha that's not even the point here, it's got nothing to do with "not getting my way", I didn't even take part, for me it's mostly about human decency.

Honestly the decision to ditch the system was disappointing but not exactly world shattering.

The hate and the entitlement of the userbase at large however is what's so soul-crushingly hurtful and is clearly what FavoredSoul is getting at too.

That harassment, the threats, the "You won't be missed" comments from ignorant people who've likely never even shared a thing with the community. It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them.

And to the people who have posted "you should expect hate" "get used to it" and the rest of this tripe, you clearly have never been on the receiving end of this behaviour, certainly not en masse, so maybe shut up? There *is* no "getting used" to threats from people you don't know, ever, because you've got no idea what's an 8 year old idiot half way across the globe and who's an unstable lunatic on the other side of town, get it into your skulls that this is NOT okay behaviour and that everyone, including you, needs to take a damn stand.

This is getting way too long and seems like I'm directing it all at you jfisha but it's really not. This whole debacle illustrates yet again the major problems with gaming culture and internet culture overall and that there needs to be some kind of major change here.

I'm tired of being an island in an ocean of pricks.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ChizFoShiz

Thanks chiz. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is very disappointing to think about what COULD have been, had the scheme continued. I would have certainly loved to invest a huge amount of my time and effort into new sets of mods. And its what Valve and Bethesda wanted. They wanted a financial incentive to induce people with real marketable skills to consider creating mods of the highest quality (when they otherwise would not have considered doing it) The less desirable emergence of opportunists, and the inevitable sea of mediocrity, an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect.

Rayek wrote: I've been around for awhile and experienced the trolls and unappreciative/expectant people. Even the horrid dislike button.

I agree it's a shame that people can't take the time to endorse mods to give the author a minor pat on the back...or leave a nice comment.

I agree the donate button won't solve much based on what I've seen in endorsement and donate trends.

I however disagree with your approach, it's no better than the people who are selfish, expectant to a modder and can't step back and look at it from another point of view.

I do mod for the "passion" of it, for the creative release, for the learning experience and for the hope that some others will get the same enjoyment out of what I created. 1, 2, 3 or 100 negative comments doesn't take away form those that do enjoy a mod.

To punish those who enjoy your mods by removing them cause others are jerks and don't is...for lack of a better word...childish.

I hope it's just frustration that's eating at you right now and you can look back and reconsider your stance, keep your mods up and move past this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @ChizFoShiz "It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them"
But is it okay if they pay, to share things with them?

Haters and stupid people will always exist. It will NEVER change. The best way is to ignore them and stay with the people that care. Those are the ones that move your ways, and fire up your passion for this thing called modding.

And funny, I get more s#*! and hate irl that on the internet. Here I come to escape from the hell that is my every day life. Don't say that you are the only one on the receiving end.

Xavathos wrote: FavoredSoul.

I feel you have become as bitter as the people you describe. You seem to forget the fact that the majority of people who speak out are the ones with the destructive attitude, because generally people do not go out of their way to say "thank you". Not because they are not grateful, but because it's hardly worth a post and you should know that your mods are useful and appreciated by simply watching the download counter.

When people make requests with a lack of respect, you don't need to respond or act upon said request in any way. If someone punched you in the face and then asked for a quarter to make a call, you wouldn't give it to him either, would you?

However, the vast majority of the community, even if it may not seem that way because they are not as... obnoxious as the destructive trolls, are people that are very much grateful for your mods, or any other mods for that matter and it's those people that would you punish by removing mods or stopping to make/update them.

If you think the trolls care, and you can get them back that way, I'm afraid you misunderstand them. They troll specifically because they do NOT care. Whatever you do, it doesn't affect them, it does affect us.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this subject. Perhaps seek out your inner optimist and try to find the silver lining. All in all, you didn't start modding for nothing, right? Hold on to that, and trust in the part of the community that does care. Let go of all the hate and trolls, it will only turn you as bitter as they are. Don't let them win.

Halendia wrote: I suppose as I am an exception in most cases, but I've spent over $120 in donations total to the Nexus community authors, I go through my mod list frequently to endorse every mod I decide to permanently add to my collection, and/or a mod I feel is worthy but cannot keep. I have created mods, I've ~250 hours clocked in the CK, not a lot compared to others, but eh, it's +/-250 hours. I've spent countless hours battling comments sections, to either help defend and author or help troubleshoot. I've made patches for some mods in order to assist the author receiving more spotlight - asking for nothing in return.

I know for certain that I have donated to some of the authors that decided to add paywalls to their mods, Isoku is a good example. I donated more than he would have received had I bought his mods from the Workshop.

I AM ONE OF THOSE USERS, so what about me? I have EXPLICITLY gone out of my way to try make modding more fun by assisting/donating/contributing/encouraging authors, and also made a few measly mods by myself.

So what about me?

hafizlordfeast wrote: Ever heard the word "This is why we can't have nice things"? Yup, people who does amazing things will rarely get the gratitude they deserve, so it comes to how they handle it in the end, and I'm not just talk about modding, but everything there is to life. Sure it sucks to provide something to the people that is worse than animal out there, but if you can endure the internet abuse, without the need to give up, some people will be grateful as well.

You do have my thanks for providing some of the cool mods, that I used and maybe forget to endorse, and probably will donate if only the money differences ain't so contrast enough in their cost, between different countries, still don't have enough money you know, even if I do, I rather pay extensively if I want to donate something on the internet. Of course, we all know that most people are used to committed on being douche in the internet every day, instead of giving back something good.

I could not fathom how people could live a life of bullies everyday without the feeling of at least saying "Thank You". I know I wouldn't want to be friend with any of them, and rather just give each of them a good punch in the face, if I could. If only the computer will let me do that. But I do say this, thank you for the hard work you've done, even though you have received the treatment you don't deserve, we, half of the community who also stay behind the curtain, are grateful for your services over the five or so years.

ChizFoShiz wrote: My final line was to convey just how overwhelming the awful to normal ratio is on the internet, not to suggest that it's me vs the world.

That being said the fact that the internet is like that right now doesn't mean it should continue to be and it doesn't give people a free pass to let it.

If human beings just said "Well, that's the way it is!" every time something was wrong in society we'd never make progress, this is no different to any other societal problem and it needs a remedy.

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

It's noble to want to change the situation of the internet, but how do you suggest we remedy this?

Going back to medieval times, pick up our pitchforks and torches and "burn the trolls" signs? And if so, who would we burn? Everything is essentially anonymous.

Fact of the matter is, there have always been people like this since the beginning of time. Liars, cheaters, scammers, frauds, bullies, or criminals of any other kind. It's just in the last 30 years it's become much more apparent because of the way the internet and other media spread the beliefs of these trolls uncensored and without consequence to the person hiding behind a username.

And yeah, it's getting worse. But I ask you again, how do you think to remedy this?

Uranium - 235 wrote: @FavoredSoul

At the end of the day, the paywall scheme almost certainly was going to destroy collaboration, completely f*#@ up 'complementary' mods (ie: the 'recommended to use with this mod...' lists), and basically price everyone out of the ability to mod Skyrim even close to what they were used to, because with every crackpot modder thinking his product is worth 'just $4', a huge install would cost literally hundreds of dollars.

Regardless if the 'most profitable mods' were going to be stupid ugly Skeletor armor or not, introducing greed into the mix was going to severely change how modding for Gamebryo works, for the worse of everyone except the people profiting.

You were going to throw all that away for your own personal payday.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @Xavathos The more people that don't sit idly by and watch as people are abused, the less people are going to do it. I don't have a perfect solution, I doubt anyone does, of course there are still going to be people that do it, but change doesn't happen by sitting on your hands.

And no, this isn't a problem that's only just visible because of the way we communicate, it's exasperated by the way we communicate, I guarantee you the vast VAST majority of abusive behaviour online would not take place in a real world scenario because A. You are no longer anonymous/a screen name and B. You're probably within distance of people who are not going to just watch.

The ability to form a hate mob on the internet in recent years has gotten ridiculous and this is just one more example of it happening.

kai0 wrote: Good grace, please, just take a deep breath all. As a purely user of all the fantastic mods you have all created over the last years, i must say that i personally have been overjoyed with the diversity and availability you modders have brought to skyrims modding community.

In all i would like you users, people such as i, to ask yourself: what right do i have to blatently deny those who have laid many hours of work into content, which i enhance my experience of this game, some gratitude?
Certainly not all the content which has been made over the years deserves equal praise, but nontheless does it deserve it for being made.

Personally i feel that paid mods could have been a great initiative towards greater quality. I don't really understand the rage against the concept of paid mods. quality control would have come along quite naturally in the form of people buying the good mods, not the silly bad ones. Albeit the system on startup was pretty much rubbish. No content controll. Imo a 90% cut to the modders and 10% shared between valve and bethesda, combined with lower prices would have been a more realistic model. In the long rund Valve and Bethesda would have made money, and the modders would have made money equal to or greater than a donation with cuts.

FavoredSoul, know that i respect you for the content you have brought to the community. Content that i have used in more than a few playthroughs. Phantompally76's comment is harsh and wether the community would survive with or without you is irrelative, although you will surely be missed for the content you could have made.

This concerns the rest of you lot aswell! Know that people (in general) are very grateful for the content you have brought us.

To the rest: Show some fcking respect.

Bring the love back to Skyrim, love and Peace!

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree wholeheartedly, and I too believe that something needs to be done. I just don't see how. Unfortunately it seems that the more we talk about it, the more attention we give it, the worse it gets.

darklordzelot wrote: It's not surprising what people commented. I mean this is the internet the one place where people can let out their inner evil without worrying about the consequences. And they will do exactly that because it's the way people work. I'm not saying everyone does it but most do.

pantera160 wrote: Since these replies have become a bit to long to read them all I'm just gonna trow my 2c in.

I do agree with you on the fact lots of mod-users are just rubbish. They are part of the new internet society where everything on the internet is not only free, but has to completely correspond to our wants. But this does not mean every single mod-user is like this.
Don't you think that removing a mod will hurt those users who downloaded it and endorsed it and maybe even donated for it a lot more then those trolls and haters?

Also the biggest problem I and probably a lot of other people who did sign the petition had was not only the paying for the mod but the added complications for the future and the total lack of communication. As stated on nexus and other sites the fear was to see the whole community break and see all the quality mods go behind the paywall.
I understand modders wouldn't mind getting some money for their mods, but why did you even start making them? To improve your own game right? For fun on a game that you like playing?
Until last week people released a couple new mods and updates a day. All in the hope of someone donating? Or just because they liked it, wanted to please the players and in the best case even earn some cash for it...

I am not going to defend those retards giving death-treats to or insulting modders, but it did piss off quite some people when a couple of modders put themself in a victim role. And not a hate victim (that i agree with) but a money victim: 'I have always made mods for the love and fun of making them, but now after 5 years i realise you guys should've paid me for it'. So don't just pull your mods from nexus but just do like SkyUI did, keep everything that exists till this date free but make updates paid...

Lastly I still think donations are the way to go unless Bethesda and Valve come up with a solution to the QC and mod stealing.

Sorry for long post ;)

Unilythe wrote: I can't understand how someone could not agree with what FavoredSoul wrote here. The internet is a vile place, even on the Nexus sometimes. I've seen my fair share of hateful, entitled, demanding nonsense thrown at mod authors here on the Nexus. Clearly that happens. I'm not sure how you could disagree with that - it's a fact.

As for mods being paid - I think most people were against the way Valve and Bethesda handled it, and also against the fact that already existing mods became paid. If there were only new mods on there, Valve and Bethesda had communicated this entire thing better, and the cut to the mod author was higher, I don't think there would have been an outrage like this.
Now there are people who legitimately complained about mod authors "selling out". Screw those people. If mod authors want to get paid for some of their mods, sure. It's worked for other games. People put in a lot of work in a mod sometimes, so if they want to get paid 50 freaking cents or maybe even a dollar for it then why the hell not?

CptnBrryCrnch wrote: You are so right Favored. My initial reactions were concern about intellectual property sharing but I did not give enough consideration to mod authors getting recompense for their good work.

Nobody was forcing me to buy a sword, but certain mods are definitely worth money to me.

I hope the reintroduce the option for paid mods in the future. You can count on me buying good stuff.

lilkyser wrote: Oh for god sake's people complaining about paying for mods are not force to buy the friggin mods, don't like it? then don't buy it simple as that, i don't understand this people at all

MacKom wrote: Let`s just...simplify.

Favored - whom did you make your mods for? Did you make them for yourself because you wanted something like that in your game and, once it was done, were satisfied? If so, all the trolls in the comments shouldn`t have bothered you at all. AT ALL. I had my dealings with people like that and I shrugged it off - I was happy with my mod. *I* enjoyed it because *I* made it for *MYSELF*. I uploaded it because I thought others might like it as well. Some did, some didn`t. And that`s totally fine with me. I took the CC, thanked those who were nice, helped out where help was needed and that`s it. Period.

If, however, you did your mod for some other reason (recognition, "fame", whatever) - that was a major flaw to begin with.

Sorry, buddy.
That being said, I do wish you all the best. Really. You`ve shown us some mad skills. Just remember to enjoy modding for yourself again.

Lillim3 wrote: So I just feel like this is hilarious with people hating modders, modders hating users when this was never about the modders.

This is about consumers being against additional costs in gaming. The games are expensive enough now that the DLC trend has become a norm.

We used to pay $40 for a fully finished product. Now we pay $60+ for half finished, bug ridden garbage that the devs expect us, the players to finish for them.

It isn't that I'm not willing to give you, a modder money for your work... If your work were a complete product in and of it's own.

I'm not going to spend another f*#@ing dime on Skyrim if that money reaches Bethesda's hand. They haven't earned it - And if we give it to them it'll be the same in the next title. And what will we the consumer get for it? Nothing.

Bethesda isn't going to do anything more as a dev than they were going to before.

The modders arn't going to produce anything they wouldn't have anyway.

This is a situation where Bethesda rakes in more cash - Most of the modders get nothing, a select few might profit and the consumers get bent over backwards.


You're right, I'm not willing to spend another dime on a nearly $100 f*#@ing video game. If you are, I think you have enough financial stability to not be worried about an extra $100~200 a month anyways.

Seren4XX wrote: I've seen a few people agree with you FavoredSoul, and the one think that caught my attention is all the guesstimates (guessed estimates) at how big the bad users vs the good ones are. I've even seen someone say "2% of the users is nice!". Ridiculous, I say.

Unless anyone can come up with cold hard facts about how many toxic users there are vs nice ones, all this talk about how bad the community is in its entirety is all based on personal experience.

In my honest opinion, FavoredSoul, I feel like you've yet to learn that you don't have to care about what anybody says and asks/demands.
Yes, it took me some time to learn too with the necessary blood sweat and tears, albeit not under pressure of rude people. I learned that as soon as something that has to do with modding makes me uncomfortable I just stop. I stop, take a breath, go do something else for as long as I need. I mean this in reference to public modding, for me I sometimes just go back to modding just for myself if I don't want to deal with public modding stuff anymore.

That has saved me a lot of head aches.

As for user experience as a mod author... I can say with pure honesty that my experience with Nexus users has been absolutely phenomenal. From people commenting on the mod page to people PMing me.
People have always been very polite and understanding. Sometimes when I read a big request in my inbox I sighed and wondered if this person realized what an undertaking it would be to fulfill that request. Then I realized I can simply tell them and be done with it, and people have always been very patient and understanding.

I don't know what you've had to endure, FavoredSoul, but as far as personal experiences go I can say with certainty that not every mod author has had to endure the same things as you have, nor have the same experience with users.

My experience with Nexus users has been quite positive. I refuse to join the bandwagon blindly and let all the negativity pile up.

It's been scientifically proven that we, at least in the Western civilization, have a tendency to remember negativity a lot better than positivity (Read the Negativity Bias paragraph on this page). Also, strongly-opinionated people will always have a louder voice on the internet.
Do you see where I'm going with this?

Somebody who can't deal with negativity and pressure from others yet, simply isn't gonna last in "the spotlights".

I'd like to invite you and others reading this to go to FavoredSoul's Ultimate Assortment mod page and check out the first three pages of comments. There's a lot of positivity in there. I've seen people with a question first take the time to show their appreciation before continuing. That's saying something.

My take on paid mods? I'd rather not have them. If you really want to know why I'll go drag my opinion about it from my tumblr, but for now I'd like to leave it at this.

Phychosis wrote: Don't know what hate you could of ever got your work is amazing your in my top 3 fav modders of all time along with Chesko, and Grace Darkling.

999-jay-999 wrote: I can but express that I among many always appreciate every mod I use in my games. I whole heartily endorse every mod I can to highlight the modders generosity for sharing there creation.

I know I speak for hundreds that we will continue to support and further encourage creativity and positive pleasure where mods and mod authors are concerned.

diyeath wrote: Its your choice to be outraged. Yes, some people are silly and the internet brings out this personality issue with certain people. However we all have choices in how we react to outside stimulus so to that end I reject your notion.

You can either be the bigger person or you can sink down to the vocal minorities level. It seems that you self admittedly sink down to their level.

Be the better person.

durge13 wrote: I've already pulled my mods from Nexus, had pulled mine from Steam Workshop years ago but this just made me realize how poorly modders are treated in general in the Skyrim community. I can't afford to spend time modding anymore and this would have allowed me to spend more time than ever on it. It's good in a way to see that another author I actually have a lot of respect for and one that I have always used mods from, feel the same way about the situation. In another way it's awful seeing it too, as nobody should have to feel that way about a community that constantly says it's 'in the spirit of modding'.

Modders are taken for granted, I hope you don't remove your mods but or stop making them but then on the other hand it might show these bullies that they deserve nothing if they give nothing in return.

Someone on Steam actually had a good idea that modders could have a group on Steam which only modders can join and only modders who submit something to the workshop could see others mods. Making it so you have to at least contribute.

riverreveal wrote: I dont think anyone is against mod creators getting money for good mods. Everyone was against the system Valve and Beth introduced.

I respect all modders who could have deleted all their free files straight away and charged for them, without thinking whether the system that had been introduced was beneficial long-term for the community. They are the modders I hope do get rewarded some time in the future when Valve and Beth come back with a system that hopefully was created alongside the community.

Brendan62 wrote: FROM FavoredSoul a section of his/her comment

"OH, ITS "FOR THE LOVE OF MODDING" YOU SAY?
Rubbish. That love and passion for modding? That gets dashed on the rocks the moment you receive your first troll, your first abusive comment, your first person who throws a tantrum cause you don't want to fulfill the request that they're asking of you. Does anyone even remember the time when the nexus sites had a DIS-ENDORSE button? I cannot begin to relate just how many times my mods got dis-endorsed simply cause I didn't fulfill the requests people were demanding. Unless you are a real modder, you will NEVER understand what that's like. Your wear your heart on your sleeve when you make and release mods, cause you DO pour your heart, soul and energy into them. In a community with a lot of hateful, entitled, selfish, and downright evil people, why don't you go off and endure a few years of that abuse, and then come back and tell me I must only mod for the love and passion of it."

MY RESPONSE

As a modder Im very anti paying for mods due to the far reaching consequences
but at the same time this is a valid point ,

these days its just way to much drama to release mods, rude and abusive comments, people who refuse to read read mes and descriptions then complain it doesnt work. There is a very negative vibe shown to modders on all levels. Mod consumers need to realize that whether you like, approve or whatever of a mod someone spent a great deal of time making it then uploading it for people to enjoy. If your not one of them or dont like the mod whatever keep quiet leave the negative comment alone. May great old time modders have left due to this
sort of negativity

So if nothing else take all this as a lesson in how you should be treating the modder , not as if said modder should be honored you actually downloaded his\her mod. But treat the modders who upload stuff for people enjoyment with the respect they deserve.Especially those who stayed on the side of free mods by adding support on mod pages etc

Maena wrote: Are you refering to the comments on the Steam workshop and on the userprofiles on Steam?

Looking at your own mods here on the nexus, there are page after page of really positive comments. I've only had a quick glance and not gone back to the very first post on each of them, but I didn't see a single hateful or troll post like you describe, so I'm just wondering where you're coming from with your post.

That being said, I'd like to thank you, FavoredSoul, for the remarkably good swords you've released here on the nexus, free and for everybody to use. Seeing the quality of them, I think it's sad that you stopped modding 6 months ago. I for one would love to see more of them, even if I haven't actually downloaded any of them yet. That's simply because I didn't know they existed.

shadowwolfz wrote: You're justified, I give you that. That is all I will give you though.

"Over the 5 or so years i've modded Bethesda games at these nexus sites, i've come to realise that a portion of the community are selfish, entitled, and often outright abusive to mod authors (not everybody of course, but a portion) with their requests, demands and complaints, and many times i've pulled mods, or have logged off feeling absolutely outraged at the way I and my mods had been treated. How many of you can honestly say you've read, or been reading even a fraction of the things people have been saying over on steam? You know that one particular guy who ported the 3 DOTA swords for sale on the workshop? Have you seen his steam profile comments? The kinds of things that had been written... that sheer overwhelming hate, the pure evil. Its just disgusting. Point in hand, a mere taste of the popular opinion of the mod-user.."

The popular opinion of the mod-user. This is like saying the burnings of the stores in Ferguson were indicative of everyone who agreed with that movement. It isn't. Sorry to burst your bubble. That is a blanket statement brought on by emotion and nothing based on a rational thought. By the way, about the 3 DOTA swords guy? Nobody has to like the mods, you open yourself up to even more sharp reviews when people have money involved.

The problem is relatively simple. People vilify those who only come back to work for profit because it leads to bad practice. There are fewer good modders who would do this vs an infinite amount of scammers, 10 minute modders, and outright thieves of content. The reputation of the paid mods put up suffer as a whole in the same way EA and Greenlight on Steam do. You know what they say about bad apples. This cant really be prevented under the sloppy system Valve put up.

Also there is another problem existing with this. Mods are dangerous to the game itself. Purchasing one is with the knowledge that it can break another product you spent far more money on and do more damage that cant be corrected with a simple refund. There is also the issue of poor quality control implemented by Steam as seen by the numerous reviews of paid mods already existing. To say the community doesnt deserve a hand in deciding what should and shouldnt be paid for is wrong in my opinion given the risks. I feel it would have been better if more support and/or an application system for the paid mods would have been better in this instance.

"In a community with a lot of hateful, entitled, selfish, and downright evil people, why don't you go off and endure a few years of that abuse, and then come back and tell me I must only mod for the love and passion of it." - That is every community ever on the face of the earth. You think paying for mods will make this go away? Im sorry, but the statement is really invalid considering you have been here for a long time and only 3 days ago had this option. Nobody ever made you do it. No one ever made you continue to mod for the community over one or more games. This isn't the same as there being a contract between you and the consumer. There had to have been some positive in it for this to happen.

Also I dont want to be spending my money on content without the reassurance that it has passed some kind of quality check and wont completely mess up. I know mods can conflict with other mods, but the refund policy Steam implemented was woefully inadequate and contributed to the problem. 7 day ban for refunds? That is simply insane. And 24 hours to test only? Another insanity. People don't play when it comes to their money. This has set up a system where the consumer takes a HUGE risk and hurts modding as a whole. Just telling it how it is.

My overall thought is had this been done correctly and implemented in a rational way, you would find more open to the idea than you think. Right now, it gives the consumer a huge amount of risk and does indirectly harm the community. People have every right to be angry. Also cut/copy/pasting the business model from their existing packages and assuming it would work in a radically different game is really sloppy business practice in my opinion. Valve/Bethesda shouldnt be let off the hook for that.

Some of the things I point out should help reassure you that most of this isnt directed to modders personally and stems from things wrong with the system and falsely attributed to modders indirectly. I still firmly believe conditions might improve some if they fix these problems. However, I still think coming back to Skyrim is not the way to go on this.

Long but I've really wanted to get it off my chest since reading it.

HadToRegister wrote: I like how one side is accusing mod users of just being "Entitled brats" who complained on Steam until paid modding was taken down.

I'm both a mod user and maker (not very good ones), but what people are missing in this thread, is that the BIGGEST uproar about paid mods was that the modders got 25% while the remaining 75% of the "earnings" was being UNFAIRLY given to Bethesda and Steam.

It's nice to know that a lot of us who stuck up for modders and their unfair cut are now seen as "Entitled brats"

I hit the endorse and usually make sure to also leave a comment saying how great the Mod is and that I also endorsed it, (usually with a all caps "ENDORSED!" )

(I suppose the profile police will look go around and look at my profile to count how many times I have and Haven't endorsed a mod so I can be named "A good guy" or an "Entitled brat" )

I made a lot of texture replacer mods, and they got all kinds of ridicule and I even had one user that made sure to go around and vote down each of them and leave crappy comments, oh well.
They aren't fantastic, but they took me hours of time, that I could've spent doing something else, but I mainly did them for the heck of it, for fun, and to see if I could actually do it.

People need to lighten the hell up, seriously

All this debacle has shown is that there is equally crappy people on BOTH sides of the argument.

HadToRegister wrote: Threads like this make me think of the old Twilight Zone episode where Invaders from Mars get everybody to turn on one another, so we wipe ourselves out, instead of the Martians having to spend their energy and resources doing it.

People had torches and pitchforks out against The Nexus, Steam, Bethesda, Modders, Non-Modders, and it was a real disgusting display of human nature.

The_Funktasm wrote: As a mod maker myself, I have to say that you ought to get over yourself. Stop acting like an angsty teenager that feels they've been betrayed when in reality the community is inadequate for every mod author, always has been, and will continue to be.

It's not new. It's what you deal with as a modder, and I've known that for a good decade now. Just as nobody is entitled to make you work, you aren't entitled to be treated like a paid employee or good friend on the sole merit of your work.

The nexus is not, and has never been yours or any other person's personal showcase. That's what a blog is for.

SiniVII wrote: This is pathetic.

A huge wall of text, containing nothing but a one-sided argument without room for other sides of the story, and even if arguments are being made they are being hand-waved away with sarcasm and snide, not taken seriously.

You don't want a discussion, you want sympathy and people to agree with you. When I look at the comment section here on Nexus, your mods are all well received, not seeing much of what you're describing, which supports my claim that you're just fishing for sympathy.

Dude, I am sorry you feel like the punching-bag of the internet, but you really shouldn't use the Steam Workshop as your clap-o-meter. The applause you'll get from steam users is predictable to say the least... And when you set yourself up for it, you'll just have to deal with it.

WightMage wrote: Thread is too long, even compared to past ones, and most people have said what I would have by now, so let me simplify:

@FavoredSoul
1) As someone who has gone out of their way this weekend to defend people's right to be paid for their work if they so choose, and donated, I'm offended at being blanket included in the rabble of "entitled" kids you mention, thanks.

2) The first thing people in all art fields learn when they get into art is that they either do it because their passionate about it, or they quit immediately. Criticism is LEGION- and they will not be stopped. You can either learn to take what you want to improve yourself, and ignore the rest, including the vitriolic, or not.

3) It is unrealistic and entitled to expect the ground you stand on to be kissed just because you made something.

I say this as a writer, and as far as I'm concerned, the bullshit we receive from so much as putting pen on paper is a fraction of the hatred that you get and continue to get from making mods. So a dozen people are spamming posts about how you're a terrible person, complete with overused memes and broken english? Who cares?

Imagine spending YEARS on a work, sending ar least a dozen drafts to publishers, editors, and friends alike, getting next to no responses, and when you do, finding your work awash in red ink or attached to a letter that extolls the reasons your work isn't profitable. Imagine the self righteous idiots who accuse you of being racist/homophobic/gay agenda/devil worshipper/christian propagandist/anti science/fails at science just because you write characters and situatioms contrary to their established worldview.

This torrent cannot, and will not be stopped, and the sooner you learn to ignore what is useless to you and pick up what is, will you be ready for the mod/artist community.

Otherwise, it sounds like you aren't meant for this line of work. All you've managed to do is throw anyone who would have helped you out under the bus over something that's meant to be fun anyway.

nadasico wrote: You just said my main point FavoredSoul the trolls are EVERYWHERE. They were before this and will be after this. The entire world is their domain as it is anyone else's. An ******** will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. Unless we somehow end up a docile race with no emotion of our own volition (Vulcans). Either that or the world ends and in that case I don't think anyone will be sweating what's going on with the internet all that much at that point.

Tarathiel_Torosir wrote: Yes Favored, how dare people ask you to make things. Truly we are an entitled species when we ask things of people, frankly I say we should nuke ourselves out of existence.

Draugas wrote: 54 pages of absolutely glowing reviews by people. I trip skipped through every other page from Aug9, 2013 to today and the only things not a positive review were bug reports, general requests for help on compatibility and requests for item (all politely posed) because they loved your work.

Over 8k endorsements, 144k + unique DL's.

I get the feeling people love your work and let you know... overwhelmingly.

rekkhan wrote: I want to say that, a modder should be paid for his work, but not like this.
Selling a mod at this time is wrong because it incomplete. The reason is there is no standard yet. A standard that people could base on to create their own mods. A standard that makes sure people won't ruin their game when using a mod. If you think people must pay for your mods, you also have the responsibility to guarantee that they are completely compatible with the mods people had paid. I tell you, such modder haven't exist yet.

nadasico wrote: @sunshinenbrick

No they are dealing with the massively dynamic world known as the human condition. It is not unique to any one community modding, twitter, facebook, youtube or your local PTA meeting.

WightMage wrote: Not much else to say but "lol"....

Nidhoegger wrote: You're overreacting and your assessment is grossly flawed.

People are correct to criticise Valve's distribution methode and payment plan in whatever manner they see fit. Content of criticism in this case matters less than volume.

The 25% payment plan is a horrendous rip-off and with the lack of content control, Valve had opened itself to the exact same case megaupload.com did a good while back. Browsing your own mods, I see that you have foreign IPs in there. If you were to charge for the Sword Of Truth, you would also be part of that investigation when it comes, and on the wrong end of it. Intellectual property laws are more than a can of worms, they are a bottomless pit of despair. Once money is in the picture, things can get horrendously ugly and disproportionate. Criticism of the modus operandi is thus more than valid.

IF you wish recompensation for modules, you have two sane avenues:

1) Donations. Be nice to your customers (once you want money, they are customers, and interactions fundamentally change; that is simply how it is) and don't be a prat, and especially deliver quality that many people like, and people will donate. Realise it will never be enough to finance your modding, unless you somehow make the next Star Citizen. Realise modding is still a hobby, and always will be, because you cannot garuantee yourself a proper income.

2) Talk to the IP holders of the software you wish to mod. Have a proper concept and enough work already done to prove it viable. Use the words "new DLC". If you present yourself well, you will be able to legally profit off this, and the slew of copywrite laws are avoided on the destributor's side by making it an official DLC.

In closing, the vitriol experienced in these past few days is only partly the byproduct of changing the relationship from peer-related and social to provider and consumer. Once you as a mod-maker are seen as a provider, people treat you differently. However, paid mods also attack established "traditions" and poison the well. The reaction and backlash to this is to be expected,and will scatter and hit more or less innocent bystanders as well, because once the mob is unleashed, anyone who gets called a witch gets burnt.

This does not make the "mob" or everyone who justifiably complained and went active against this a bad person or a troll. This does not mean they are suddenly against mod makers. But with the above post, FavouredSoul, you have certainly ensured that a fair share will be against -you-. A smarter choice would be not to speak out and, like our own Helmut Kohl for decades here, just sit it out.

phoenixmass wrote: Making mods is a lot fun, updating mods can be really dull and time consuming
Most authors will want to move on to their next mod idea/interest.
Why not pay a very small amount for an update that adds extra features
That way ensuring the modder keeps old mods up to date
I know i would for somthing like Frostfall (Chesko) also an update for the Creation Kit
Maybe an extra update donation button, dont know put about as much thought into it
As probably steam did, a balance in the force shall be found
The best fair solution will probably come from nexus over this year a user maybe
I also like free stuff does'nt everyone and would not pay for most mods
Including my own which are quite basic
but some are a bit special and i would support those mod makers
Being able to quit their jobs and mod full time.
No one would choose to mod or work in the game industry for the money
The dude that said no one asked you to make mods
No one asked Jimi Hendrix to pick up a guitar.
FavoredSoul, most Nexus users are fair minded
Hope you dont hide mods really like Ultimate Assortment.
phantompally76, can't you agree to disagree and State your reason try to see both sides.
It's easy to be in the in crowd go along with mob rules
Takes guts to stand apart, a bit of trust goes a long way.
More important things going on in the World there are.
Hav'nt experienced any Trolls on nexus but my lightsaber is Red
And turns all the way upto 11
I will eventually take over this World
(You have been warned)

Favored, rather than pull your mods, assert your right to control. This game changer comes with more than simply a couple paragraph retraction anouncement on reddit...As they attempted to change manner and means of compensation while ignoring legal issues, You now have a right to require use of your work to be removed or compensated.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If a contract is amended without mutual consent, the contract is then nullified. You uploaded your work and expected no financial gain...so when they established a pay system, Your consent must then be reasserted should it not? Should Valve be able to offer A SINGLE Pay-to-Play mod without addressing ALL of the FREE mods that have come before?

Seems to me that if Valve proffited in ANY WAy without giving every modder fair compensation, they are open to legal redress. Edited April 28, 2015 by Fowldragon

[lFostelR]

In response to post #24761919. #24762024 is also a reply to the same post.

Lateraliss wrote:

CyberDoom5 wrote: yeah they spent 100 of hrs making a program that crashes for no good reason, freezes a lot, and is like trying to work with a spoiled 3 year old.

They deserve their share of the split, they've invested millions in the product/service.
The people saying they support pay mods, just not the split, are simply using it as a cop out.
What does it matter to them how the money is split.... Do these same people refuse to shop an Walmart or McDonalds on this same principal?

[Edokage]

It was a gamble and a negative response from a lot of people was expected. Still, now that the idea is out there, chances are it will be tried again and may stick. The biggest problem with Valve's mod market idea was them introducing it with a game that already had a huge free mod market. Had they instead tried the model with a new game without existing mods, I believe the model may have stuck around (albeit with a big chance of it not being a huge success, seeing as most games don't have many mods even if they support mod making).

[greggorypeccary]

In response to post #24761834. #24762054, #24762089 are all replies on the same post.

greggorypeccary wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is why it is also about our experience of art... and we should be careful we don't buy into buying "art" for art's sake.

That is to say art is a very subjective thing to experience and why our relationship with it matters. I buy Bethesda games because they enrich my life, not just cuz they are sold as such

joeriz9 wrote: Mod makers who want to be artists, Should make a living of it, and proof it by making a mod that's worth the while.

The creator of falskaar purely made Falskaar to show what he was capable of, and got a real job out of it.

Mod makers already are artists. I never said all art is good. Edited April 28, 2015 by greggorypeccary

[aikante]

In response to post #24745044. #24745229, #24745464, #24745559, #24745634, #24745674, #24745769, #24746064, #24746434, #24746794, #24746974, #24747029, #24747269, #24750919, #24751124, #24751414, #24753424 are all replies on the same post.

oldnotweak wrote:

jfisha wrote: Did you not read any comments that were in support? Did those get deleted or something?

ChizFoShiz wrote: The trouble is the users out number the authors by such an incredible ratio that we have no voice, no one is able to speak up for any of us against a tidal wave of entitlement like what we just witnessed this weekend.

If you want to *really* feel disgusted go over to reddit and read all the circle jerking "we won" nonsense.

It's absolutely shameful.

chaotix14 wrote: Most of those were just afraid their mods and the future modding community would go and hide behind a paywall. Also it didn't help that they launched it on steam, the problems with early access, greenlight, the open sewer gates policy on the store and even the steam workshop itself as a service, did not fill the community with a lot of faith in what this would turn out to be. And reading about the 24 hour return policy didn't exactly fill many with faith. I mean it basically was a statement that either said: "we don't understand mods. And we don't understand that you might not have the time to immediately go play the game." or "We don't care that you are left with broken stuff."

BadYeti wrote: You haven't seen entitled users until you accept their money. :P

theblueshark wrote: should have been a 1 week trial..some mods wont show that its s#*! till you're half way there..

@ oldnotweak some people that did not want the paywall is due to the cut modders were having. though we were outnumbered by people that wanted it for free forever.

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz entitlement works both ways. For nearly 2 decades we've had a community that had no issues with creating content without guaranteed monetary incentive.

Money absolutely corrupts thought process and this is a perfect case study of that social phenomina.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @ diyeath "A perfect case study" in what way? Modders get the option to be compensated and then get run off the internet? Yeah, those guys were so corrupt. Give me a freaking break.

And as for entitlement working both ways your example only illustrates the entitlement of the userbase more so, just because something has been free for the longest time, doesn't mean it has to forever, expecting that it must is pretty entitled I'd say.

icanhazmodspls wrote: @ ChizFoShiz. Yes i am entitled to some consumer rights. Firstly if i pay for a mod you can't guarantee it won't break my game as mods are inherently unstable with the game and especially with each other. Given that the majority of users use multiple mods that is rather important don't you think?

Second if i get a refund i want it to be in real money not steam monopoly money. These are basic rights as consumer so yes entitlement works both ways.

Lastly paid mods could only work if there was some form of quality control from steam, an area in which they are notoriously lacking in.

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz corrupting thought process is different than being corrupt. Very, very different. The only ones I'd truly consider corrupt are the ones who took down free mods to host them for money on steam. People like chesko are not corrupt in any visible way.

I'm basing my opinions off of emperical data collected over nearly 2 decades. That system worked fine and very, very few people complained. In fact the only one of note that I can remember is Locaster. So when you say that bringing up the fact that entitelment goes both ways shows even more entitlement I can't help but laugh because you're showing more entitlement. Its a gigantic fallicious loop perpetuated by ignoring that we had a system which worked for a very long period of time before this whole steam fiasco.

I'm not against paid mods as much as I'm against paid mods that mod authors couldn't possibly hope to support enough to justify the price tag. We all know that singular mod authors can't support the mods properly and that's fine, we're talking about potentially tens of thousands of users vs one poor guy trying to deal with all the bug reports and whatnot. But without the proper support it's not right to sell your product and we can see this in the quality of the paid mods, most of them were horrific quality with only a very select few being of good quality.

I think that you should sit down and consider all the moving pieces and chronological order of events in order to form a reasonable opinion.

I personally am in favor of a more agressive approach to donations, I really don't mind if there's a big fat "donation" button at the top of the description, blinking away in obnoxious seizure-enducing strobe effects because there's no implied warranty involved (which is a legal thing which modders would be subjecting themselves to and thus opening a can of legal worms).

Uranium - 235 wrote: "The trouble is the users out number the authors by such an incredible ratio that we have no voice, no one is able to speak up for any of us against a tidal wave of entitlement like what we just witnessed this weekend.

If you want to *really* feel disgusted go over to reddit and read all the circle jerking "we won" nonsense."

The only entitlement here is coming from you. Mod-makers are volunteers. They have ALWAYS been volunteers. Volunteering by definition means you shouldn't expect fiscal rewards for your work. Nothing about this relationship changed when you personally decided to make mods... unless you somehow feel that YOUR mods are worth more than those made by people whose creations predate yours?

You people knew the score when you started making mods. If you weren't okay with working without payment, then you shouldn't have made mods.

The fact that you're calling mod-users 'entitled'... man, maybe it's for the best that a lot of you are leaving. Good to see everyone show their true colors here. Nobody is making you make mods. If you think we OWE you for your work, then you are in the wrong business. I don't OWE you anything any more than the homeless OWE the people who volunteer to work at a soup kitchen.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @icanhazmodspls Never said anything about you not having rights as a consumer, for some of you I'm sure it IS a genuine concern over refund policies and content policing, but for the majority opinion it only takes a 30 second scan down any other outlet of discussion for this game to see the popular opinion is that mods and modders aren't worth it.

I've said this elsewhere but I'll say it again here, the system could have been changed based on feedback, refund policies can be altered, revenue distribution can be renegotiated, content policing can be provided and proven over time.

Lastly, of course I can't guarantee a plugin will work in tandem with any other plugins you want to run, no more so than Bethesda can guarantee your game will run once you throw 150 mods into it.

With a refund policy that could potentially have been changed to an acceptable system in your eyes though, would it not be a platform worth having?

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz now you need to consider implied warrany as it's a legal term which is applied when you charge money for a product.

icanhazmodspls wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree with you that paid mods have the potential to improve quality and are therefore worth a shot. However i have very little trust in Valve to set this up. Their vision of a digital marketplace is very libertarian and chaotic IMO.

Futhermore Valve's trackrecord regarding regulation isn't exactly good, for example Greenlight and broken games entering the store.

You do have a point that perhaps mod authors aren't responsible for a guarantee that mods are compatible with each other.

I think a solution would be a model similar to TF2 and CS. For example using polling Valve and or Bethesda can get a sense which mods are popular and or used together in the community. They can then get together with those authors to produce and release a separate DLC similar to Dragonborn or Dawnguard. The Pro's are IMO:

-sharing of resources between authors continues.
-proper Q & A resulting in consumer confidence and compatibility with other mods.
-since it's released as a separate game i have more options of buying it outside of steam/workshop.
-better pricing (release price for say 15 euros) and better bang for buck.
-better career opportunities for authors.

A concrete example: SkyRe+Wyrmtooth+Immersive Armors+"Random House Mod".

Anyway just some thoughts..

Sakorona wrote: @Uranium-235

It's awfully presumptuous of you to tell mod-makers what they are. Especially from someone who isn't even a modder.

Tyerial12 wrote: dont need to be a modder to use your eyes

Tarathiel_Torosir wrote: You don't know what entitlement is until you take money for a product and then see people pissed off because said product doesn't work.

Also last I checked it was legally required that those that sell software, which mods are, support their product for free for 2 years, this is why games are patched for a minimum of 2 years by the way, and modders would be making so little f*#@ing money that it wouldn't be viable for them to support the mod for 2 years. Not to mention that they can't guarantee that the mod will even work with the setup that their customers have. No I'm sorry, paid mods take away the freedom of the mod makers, they stop being volunteers who can stop whenever they want and suffer minimal backlash and instead turns them into slaves working for pennies.

@ Sakorona

So are you saying modders are not volunteers and should EXPECT compensation? Uranium - 235 is right.

[Teruke]

In response to post #24748904.

mcguffin wrote:

nexus has ads, why not give 1% of ad revenue to modders, if a download is made ??

[Vesuvius1745]

The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15+ years without anyone getting paid for their “work”. A lot of great mods and resources--arguably of higher quality than any DLCs Bethesda has released—have been donated to the community. Most modders would appreciate donations, but certainly don’t expect or want formal compensation. For me personally, I was a modder for years on Morrowind and other games, and I spent countless hours of my free time doing it. Modding was always a labor of love, and not a way to try and put a new Ferrari in the garage. If you really want to get paid for your “work”, the modding scene isn't for you—get a job at a game company. Some people also use modding as a way to sharpen their skills, and get the attention of game companies. It looks good on a resume. That’s ok too.

 

But the bottom line is that Modding is a hobby, like collecting stamps, painting, or *insert some hobby here*. People usually don’t get paid for their hobbies—their “compensation” comes from the enjoyment of doing the thing. In my case, my compensation was both: the enjoyment of creating mods, AND enjoying the work of others who had also graciously donated the fruits of their hobby to the community for us all to use and enjoy.

 

The word “community” above is the crux of this issue. We have an “open source” community of sorts, and I will explain what that is, and why this pay-for-mods idea will not work:

 

Mods aren’t created in a vacuum; they are the culmination of the work of everyone who has contributed to the community, in one way or another, and if only as inspiration. Modders have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for years. Played with those mods, used them to learn how to mod themselves, borrowed resources from them, or just got inspired to do something similar. Modders have also benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (Resources like SKSE, ENB--these utilities created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party programs than is required for a mere game mod). They didn't charge for these utilities because they wanted to give them to the community to use and inspire more people to create more free mods.

 

Modders also benefit from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting all of these mods, which is no small endeavor and costs a significant amount. He’s never charged. He accepts donations, and people should donate if they use this site regularly. What I am trying to say is that the modders trying to sell their work would have never been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for this community--all the folks mentioned here, and those before them who have given their time and effort to the community for free with no expectation other than you pay-it-forward.

 

So now some modders want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. They don’t seem to understand why that is a problem for the modding community so I will explain it in another way:

 

Would we still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? The vanilla Skryrim, frankly, is bug-filled garbage. Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $2.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the other great mods we use, and everything else that comes together to make the sum of all parts, most people wouldn't be able to afford it--and it would KILL the modding scene (and you’d get the people who say, “if so-and-so will only sell his mods, why should I release MY mod for free?” etc.)

 

Bottom line: if creating mods takes up too much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if your goal is to get rich or pay the bills, the modding scene is not where you want to concentrate your efforts.

 

[Lateraliss]

In response to post #24761919. #24762024, #24762164 are all replies on the same post.

Lateraliss wrote:

CyberDoom5 wrote: yeah they spent 100 of hrs making a program that crashes for no good reason, freezes a lot, and is like trying to work with a spoiled 3 year old.

foster xbl wrote: They deserve their share of the split, they've invested millions in the product/service.
The people saying they support pay mods, just not the split, are simply using it as a cop out.
What does it matter to them how the money is split.... Do these same people refuse to shop an Walmart or McDonalds on this same principal?

If paid mods are going to happen, and I don't see how it ever could be successful because of the logistical nightmare of it, the amount of money that each party will get will be nominal.

Obviously the modder deserves a cut because it is their creation.
Bethesda deserves a cut because it is their resources being used.
Valve deserves a cut because it's their network hosting the content.
Any other mod that the mod relies on deserves a cut, because the original mod is standing on the shoulders of the others.
Nexus should receive a cut because it has spent years giving modders a place to grow and gain enough attention that they even have a market to sell their mods, plus they created NMM, which any self respecting mod user knows trumps bethesda's data files manager.

Eventually each party will receive a fraction of a cent, and it becomes costlier for each party than they receive in sales.

[joeriz9]

In response to post #24761834. #24762054, #24762089, #24762294 are all replies on the same post.

greggorypeccary wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is why it is also about our experience of art... and we should be careful we don't buy into buying "art" for art's sake.

That is to say art is a very subjective thing to experience and why our relationship with it matters. I buy Bethesda games because they enrich my life, not just cuz they are sold as such

joeriz9 wrote: Mod makers who want to be artists, Should make a living of it, and proof it by making a mod that's worth the while.

The creator of falskaar purely made Falskaar to show what he was capable of, and got a real job out of it.

greggorypeccary wrote: Mod makers already are artists. I never said all art is good.

True, let me rephrase that. If you want to make a living of it.