Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Scarheart]

This thread is too long to go over to see if the comments I'm about to make has been covered or not so I will just add my 2 cents worth anyways for what it's worth.

Modders and anyone else NEED to be able to make money. Bills, food etc, are not paid by "likes" no matter how passionate the modder is. It's great when the person doing the work has other income and generously donates his or her free time to enrich the community with their skills. It is completely unrealistic to expect the same richness in the modding community if these talented people are not getting some recompense for their time. Today's games are increasingly complex and the casual amount of time (and often not so casual) required in the past to put out a mod doesn't cut it anymore. If we expect to see the quality and diversity of mods we have been then it is inevitable the some payment system is required. If a donation system works then great. If it's a pay before download then that may be required, but what ever ends up working to keep the modders at it. In the past, the games (and other software for that matter) that seem to have the longest legs have all been the ones with the most robust modding community.

Developers often don't have the time and manpower to do everything they would have liked to for a title they put out and if their publisher doesn't deem it worthwhile to extend a title beyond a certain point then a modding community shouldn't be penalized for doing what they can to extend the life of a title. Especially when we have seen on many occasions modders fix things that the developers haven't yet. Often for the above reasons of time and dictates from "the higher powers". Lol! Understandably the original developer of the IP deserves it's cut but if the person who is doing most of the work on the mod doesn't receive enough motivation then new mods will start to dry up. I have seen this happen several times and have been a part of various teams where due to circumstances beyond the teams control things have had to be shut down and really awesome mods have not been released. Usually related to someone not directly on the mod team f*ing us over for selfish reasons killing the whole project.

To give you an idea where I am coming from I would be called a "mature" member of the community as a passionate gamer and artist and have worked professionally in gaming and film TV winning awards for VFX in my field.

 

[Psijonica]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

[WarfighterShaun]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

Robok Agreed

Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.

In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.

[BadYeti]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed

Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.

In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.

It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(

[EnaiSiaion]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed

Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.

In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.

BadYeti wrote: It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(

When mod authors are allowed to profit from their work, people will mod ONLY for money.

Have you looked at your phone's app store lately? The Porkshop was meant to be exactly this model. Given the "quality" of the first wave of mods, which were all Jim f*#@ing Sterling Son level bad except for SkyUI, it is not a stretch to see a future where anyone actually attempting to use the system for its intended purpose and offer advanced mods would get drowned in a deluge of s#*! designed to make precisely $400.

[Lateraliss]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed

Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.

In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.

BadYeti wrote: It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(

EnaiSiaion wrote: When mod authors are allowed to profit from their work, people will mod ONLY for money.

Have you looked at your phone's app store lately? The Porkshop was meant to be exactly this model. Given the "quality" of the first wave of mods, which were all Jim f*#@ing Sterling Son level bad except for SkyUI, it is not a stretch to see a future where anyone actually attempting to use the system for its intended purpose and offer advanced mods would get drowned in a deluge of s#*! designed to make precisely $400.

Warfighter, it's already been like that for years. There are modders who removed their mods from Nexus because of conflicts with the community. There have been modders that removed their mods from Nexus because people weren't worshiping them enough. It's an endless cycle. The point is there is always someone else that comes along and makes a great mod that replaces what we lost.

My belief if once a person decides that money is more important than the hobby, they focus instead on what can make them the most money instead of what would make the best quality, and that's what will end up destroying the modding community. Hundreds of low quality paid mods coming out like an assembly line. Why work on one huge mod that will get you 5 bucks when you can create 100 retextures in the same amount of time and sell them for 99 cents each.

[AgentBJ09]

I have to laugh at this quote from the Bethesda blog: "...we're anti-DRM as far as we can be...We shipped Oblivion with no DRM because we didn't like how it affected the game."

 

No idea how long that blog author has been working with Bethesda, but that is quite the pair of lies; if that was in any way true, we would have a choice to buy what Bethesda sells on DRM-free sites, or install from retail disks without using Steam.

 

Otherwise, glad to know they saw some sense with this paid mods idea.

[FavoredSoul]

EDIT:

 

I'm deleting this comment not because I regret what I said (I meant every word of it) but because I want people to stop adding their comments.

 

This is a useless discussion, and I didn't realise that in sharing my opinion I would be feeding the very hate I was taking issue with in the first place. There's enough of that already out there.

 

We all have a right to our own opinions. I have mine, you have yours, feel free to hate me for it, think me weak, whatever. It doesn't matter to me. I simply had something to say and Its been lifted off my chest already.

 

So thankyou for your replies, both good and bad.

Edited April 29, 2015 by FavoredSoul

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564, #24742579 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed

Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.

In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.

BadYeti wrote: It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(

EnaiSiaion wrote: When mod authors are allowed to profit from their work, people will mod ONLY for money.

Have you looked at your phone's app store lately? The Porkshop was meant to be exactly this model. Given the "quality" of the first wave of mods, which were all Jim f*#@ing Sterling Son level bad except for SkyUI, it is not a stretch to see a future where anyone actually attempting to use the system for its intended purpose and offer advanced mods would get drowned in a deluge of s#*! designed to make precisely $400.

Lateraliss wrote: Warfighter, it's already been like that for years. There are modders who removed their mods from Nexus because of conflicts with the community. There have been modders that removed their mods from Nexus because people weren't worshiping them enough. It's an endless cycle. The point is there is always someone else that comes along and makes a great mod that replaces what we lost.

My belief if once a person decides that money is more important than the hobby, they focus instead on what can make them the most money instead of what would make the best quality, and that's what will end up destroying the modding community. Hundreds of low quality paid mods coming out like an assembly line. Why work on one huge mod that will get you 5 bucks when you can create 100 retextures in the same amount of time and sell them for 99 cents each.

It looks like you don't understand my position, and I don't understand yours, so I will bow out of this discussion as I don't think anything productive will come out of it.

I will parrot the sentiment of another poster, that at least one good thing will come out of this mess: it will cull the modding community of certain types of individuals. And as history has shown, when one modder leaves, it doesn't take long for another to take their place.

Having said that, you should be thanked for what you have given to the community thus far, and I wish you well in your future endeavors.

[dunmermagic]

In response to post #24742474.

Scarheart wrote:

The modding community was doing just fine the past 13 years.
I posted this elsewhere, but if bethesda truly cared about TALENTED modders such as Chesko getting paid, they could do a sponsorship program similar to what google does on youtube. You get enough endorsements, you can get contracted to make a paid DLC. This keeps talented modders paid and keeps others from ripping people off with horse armor like crap.