Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Winjin]

This may all seem well and everyone seem to be a little bit like "maybe we were too harsh" but don't forget that Steam doesn't moderate content the littlest bit, they allow the most horrible things on it, they can't even keep Early Access developers in line, and they wanted like 80% of the profits to keep, instead of sharing it with the modmakers. If I were to pay, I'd split it THE OTHER WAY ROUND. 20% to split between Bethesda and Valve and 80% to the modmaker. I'm not going to pay for this, as this is just arrogant. I'd rather find the same mod here and pay here.

Which I'm going to do, as soon as I get my Vegas working with all I've installed. Mod it till it breaks ©

[treota]

In response to post #24786084. #24786609, #24786764, #24787089, #24787254 are all replies on the same post.

Tj_Nightbringer wrote:

Marstonn wrote: Stop this, it always was about the money. People just don't want pay for mods, simple. So many reasons and excuses. I would like to see more honest talk.

I have 100 mods an i don't want pay for them. Simple.

Tj_Nightbringer wrote: Actually no for me it isnt about the money, Would I pay for the mods that were in the first wave of mods put up on the paid workshop probably not, had a mod like Falskaar or Nerhim or The lost Spires or Tears of A Fiend went up you damn right I would pay money for them without question. I like how your trying to call me out as if you know me personally simply put money isnt an issue for me.

jace14 wrote: I don't think it's wise to ignore how it would have changed the market either. I mean pop ups in mods telling them upgrade, really midas?. With valve's refusal to police. It would have been worse than the mobile market.

Tj_Nightbringer wrote: I agree which is why in its current form I was against it, but I do believe mod authors who put in time and effort have every right if they so choose to want compensation for their work so long as it is their work.

@Marstonn
This is just plain projection of one viewpoint on an entire community, and is just wrong. I have paid for mods and will do so again if i deem them worth paying for, simple as that.

Go check out The Nameless Mod, I was more than happy to pay for that due to the quantity and quality of work provided, and its Deus Ex too... that helps.

Going by figures sold I am certainly not alone in that. Edited April 29, 2015 by treota

[juhana]

I would like to pay monthly premium fee for getting all mods automatically downloaded to my disk. No more download hell. Instant from my disk.

[hafizlordfeast]

In response to post #24787589. #24788179 is also a reply to the same post.

hafizlordfeast wrote:

pintocat wrote: It should have been open instead of that shady thing with hand picking a select few modders... it's the same thing they did with giving the CK to certain modders months before everyone else got it. And that is why I stopped playing and never modded Skyrim and went back to Fallout -- making some artificial caste system where some modders got early access to the CK is BS

But I don't see how it is mod makers vs mod users. A user has no say over what the producer of the mod wants. Might not like what they do, but the CK is available to all -- if you don't like what a modder does, you're free to make your own mod instead. The talk about community openness and sharing and innovation and whatnot, that all applies to the mod maker. The only thing the mod user was affected by and ultimately upset by was the prospect of actually paying money for the mountain of work mod makers do...

@ pintocat: I could agree with you wholeheartedly, but after reading FavoredSoul in this forum, about the mod users v mod makers, I do feel like another kind of perspective need to be added, even if we know, paying for something that suppose to be free in the first place just plain wrong.

Maybe, mod makers do feel entitled after getting criticized and trolled with the free mods they made, so they at least deserve the compensation after all that abuse. But of course, making the sudden decision of making premium payment, isn't actually a good idea, even though it looks like a benefit to them.

The reason of this catastrophe is simply, the sudden implementation. If they are all take time and having long term demonstration test before showing the paywall straight to our face, then maybe a better agreement could be done. Instead, they drop the bomb and before you know it, everbody pointing fingers to anyone.

About the exclusivity creation kit, even though I never know it before, I think its okay, if it meant for talented modders to use it and show its capability, sort of like closed beta test. Maybe they don't want beginner mod makers to criticized something they don't even know, or something, and at least its FREE. But this paywall, not acceptable.

Even if Bethesda and Valve wanted to help the modders, though it is clearly they want the slice of the pie for something they don't even contribute, they should at least give them prizes themselves. How come Bohemia Interactive who make Arma games, able to give money prizes to the mod makers with a lot amount of money, but Valve and Bethesda are being super cheap about this?

Bohemia Interactive isn't actually a huge AAA developers, and Valve already considered the most successful distributor of games. Can Bethesda and Valve personally help mod makers themselves, instead of asking for costumers money? People criticize Bohemia's expensive DLC, but they at least give something back the mod makers, and they haven't use the paywall policy, yet. But I know they will be screwed if they do, just like Bethesda right now.

[ilDuderoni]

They should have just asked me next time. I would've immediately suggested the optional part to payment and everyone would've been happy.

 

I say that jokingly (especially the part about asking me specifically) but while Valve and Bethesda do show they've listened to the feedback leading to the removal of it, they probably should've asked us from the beginning regarding this idea and consider the feedback on THAT.

 

Maybe they've learned now to just think of us as more than just consumers. Some of us are actually intelligently and can intelligent predict or perceive these things.

 

Bethesda, Valve... talk to us. Please. Sh*t, just talk to Dark0ne (who some internetters love questioning the loyalty of) before you do anything, it's all better than not listening at all... or the guy who suggested this in the first place.

Edited April 29, 2015 by RJ the Shadow

[masterbond9]

In response to post #24787589. #24788179, #24788969 are all replies on the same post.

hafizlordfeast wrote:

pintocat wrote: It should have been open instead of that shady thing with hand picking a select few modders... it's the same thing they did with giving the CK to certain modders months before everyone else got it. And that is why I stopped playing and never modded Skyrim and went back to Fallout -- making some artificial caste system where some modders got early access to the CK is BS

But I don't see how it is mod makers vs mod users. A user has no say over what the producer of the mod wants. Might not like what they do, but the CK is available to all -- if you don't like what a modder does, you're free to make your own mod instead. The talk about community openness and sharing and innovation and whatnot, that all applies to the mod maker. The only thing the mod user was affected by and ultimately upset by was the prospect of actually paying money for the mountain of work mod makers do...

hafizlordfeast wrote: @ pintocat: I could agree with you wholeheartedly, but after reading FavoredSoul in this forum, about the mod users v mod makers, I do feel like another kind of perspective need to be added, even if we know, paying for something that suppose to be free in the first place just plain wrong.

Maybe, mod makers do feel entitled after getting criticized and trolled with the free mods they made, so they at least deserve the compensation after all that abuse. But of course, making the sudden decision of making premium payment, isn't actually a good idea, even though it looks like a benefit to them.

The reason of this catastrophe is simply, the sudden implementation. If they are all take time and having long term demonstration test before showing the paywall straight to our face, then maybe a better agreement could be done. Instead, they drop the bomb and before you know it, everbody pointing fingers to anyone.

About the exclusivity creation kit, even though I never know it before, I think its okay, if it meant for talented modders to use it and show its capability, sort of like closed beta test. Maybe they don't want beginner mod makers to criticized something they don't even know, or something, and at least its FREE. But this paywall, not acceptable.

Even if Bethesda and Valve wanted to help the modders, though it is clearly they want the slice of the pie for something they don't even contribute, they should at least give them prizes themselves. How come Bohemia Interactive who make Arma games, able to give money prizes to the mod makers with a lot amount of money, but Valve and Bethesda are being super cheap about this?

Bohemia Interactive isn't actually a huge AAA developers, and Valve already considered the most successful distributor of games. Can Bethesda and Valve personally help mod makers themselves, instead of asking for costumers money? People criticize Bohemia's expensive DLC, but they at least give something back the mod makers, and they haven't use the paywall policy, yet. But I know they will be screwed if they do, just like Bethesda right now.

Unbelievably well said - funny what can happen when there's a lack of communication skills involved. I hope Zenimax and valve learned their lesson, and if they do decide to try it again that they do it right and stay true to their words when they say the money is not what they're looking for

[lFostelR]

In response to post #24731789. #24731909, #24732094, #24732139, #24732229, #24732289, #24734304, #24734404, #24734464, #24734509, #24735149, #24786969, #24787854 are all replies on the same post.

nonemployee wrote:

Riprock wrote: Impossible to avoid ruffling feathers going the other way, I'm afraid. Omelet and eggs however, in my opinion. We can't go back but we can go forward :)

Avastgard wrote: I feel bad for the modders who took the time to make these updates only to have them removed days later. After this, we may never see SkyUI v. 5.

CelticPaladin wrote: If I received the death threats those people did I'd give modding a middle finger and go straight back into IT.

phantompally76 wrote: Those versions of Isoku's mods still belong to Valve. LEGALLY they can tell him he can't put them on here.

I'm not at all sure they'd be bold enough to try that though.

On the other hand, would he be bold enough to update them here?

sa547 wrote: It's unfortunate that on Reddit one of the members of the SkyUI team used the wrong approach and language, hence he sort of wrecked the mod's public image.

Aavok wrote: Wait, what happened on Reddit?

daedriccat wrote: He said that there was no community in Skyrim.

Beetlecat wrote: I'm not sure it's true that he *can't* distribute them elsewhere, only that Valve can legitimately do what they want with them.

phantompally76 wrote: Wasn't just reddit.

Go look at SKYUI's comments section on here. It's been locked, but the dev's arrogant, condescending and smug demeanor is preserved.

Yes, he was taking a beating from some VERY angry commenters, but he was also taunting them. That's unacceptable, and for that reason I will never upgrade or endorse SkyUI whether they upload it or not.

SirTopas wrote: @phantompally76 - But you'll keep using it, won't you? You seem to lack the strength of conviction to uninstall it, but you'll trash the authors and say "I won't upgrade". Pretty weak sauce.

diluvium wrote: "Those versions of Isoku's mods still belong to Valve. LEGALLY they can tell him he can't put them on here."

Re-read section 6 of your subscriber agreement - The rights you, I and Isoku granted to Valve in order to upload things are non-exclusive.

phantompally76 wrote: SirTopas, stand down.

I only use it anyway because 99% of mods require it. If I uninstall it, I forfeit the ability to mod at all, and I won't give those jerks the satisfaction. Nor you.

Given the choice, I would have never used it to begin with. If there was another option, you can bet I would use it.

As it is, I will never upgrade.

Regardless, it's honestly none of your business. But thanks for trying to make it yours. You've spent a great deal of the past few days sticking your nose in where it isn't wanted. I won't forget that, son.

@phatom

So, you won't uninstall it.... But it was made by " a 14 year old stoner demanding you make him a living"
I'm sorry I know I said I was done.... But wow.
Who's the entitled hypocrite now.
With this one post you've completely proven everything
You've been spewing for days is totally Bull

Feel free to try and save face here with some asinine reply
But I won't see it, I'll take my leave knowing full well I was right about you.

[blarty]

I think the obvious flaw in their plan was not consulting with the community early doors. As has been said if some of these rationale blog posts had come out as a 'we're thinking of doing it this way, what do you think?' posts instead of hastily written 'pseudo apologies' after the fact, then I doubt there would have been an issue.

 

The problem seems to be that in general, the modding community has no problem with money - donations, subscriptions and the like - but the way in which it's been framed particularly with the Chesko - Fore concerns, was seen to be threatening to an existing meritocratic economy that placed weight more on thanks, endorsements, donations and accreditation than on making a quick buck.

 

Quite simply the communication between Valve, Modders (those chosen to showcase this feature AND those that weren't), Bethesda and players was very lacking. So much so that instead of offering a choice with well reasoned, debated and accepted terms of reference and presenting that to the community, the way it was handled was more akin to farting in a lift and no one taking responsibility for it.

[sesom]

In response to post #24787589. #24788179, #24788969, #24789854 are all replies on the same post.

hafizlordfeast wrote:

pintocat wrote: It should have been open instead of that shady thing with hand picking a select few modders... it's the same thing they did with giving the CK to certain modders months before everyone else got it. And that is why I stopped playing and never modded Skyrim and went back to Fallout -- making some artificial caste system where some modders got early access to the CK is BS

But I don't see how it is mod makers vs mod users. A user has no say over what the producer of the mod wants. Might not like what they do, but the CK is available to all -- if you don't like what a modder does, you're free to make your own mod instead. The talk about community openness and sharing and innovation and whatnot, that all applies to the mod maker. The only thing the mod user was affected by and ultimately upset by was the prospect of actually paying money for the mountain of work mod makers do...

hafizlordfeast wrote: @ pintocat: I could agree with you wholeheartedly, but after reading FavoredSoul in this forum, about the mod users v mod makers, I do feel like another kind of perspective need to be added, even if we know, paying for something that suppose to be free in the first place just plain wrong.

Maybe, mod makers do feel entitled after getting criticized and trolled with the free mods they made, so they at least deserve the compensation after all that abuse. But of course, making the sudden decision of making premium payment, isn't actually a good idea, even though it looks like a benefit to them.

The reason of this catastrophe is simply, the sudden implementation. If they are all take time and having long term demonstration test before showing the paywall straight to our face, then maybe a better agreement could be done. Instead, they drop the bomb and before you know it, everbody pointing fingers to anyone.

About the exclusivity creation kit, even though I never know it before, I think its okay, if it meant for talented modders to use it and show its capability, sort of like closed beta test. Maybe they don't want beginner mod makers to criticized something they don't even know, or something, and at least its FREE. But this paywall, not acceptable.

Even if Bethesda and Valve wanted to help the modders, though it is clearly they want the slice of the pie for something they don't even contribute, they should at least give them prizes themselves. How come Bohemia Interactive who make Arma games, able to give money prizes to the mod makers with a lot amount of money, but Valve and Bethesda are being super cheap about this?

Bohemia Interactive isn't actually a huge AAA developers, and Valve already considered the most successful distributor of games. Can Bethesda and Valve personally help mod makers themselves, instead of asking for costumers money? People criticize Bohemia's expensive DLC, but they at least give something back the mod makers, and they haven't use the paywall policy, yet. But I know they will be screwed if they do, just like Bethesda right now.

masterbond9 wrote: Unbelievably well said - funny what can happen when there's a lack of communication skills involved. I hope Zenimax and valve learned their lesson, and if they do decide to try it again that they do it right and stay true to their words when they say the money is not what they're looking for

The choice from Bethesda of mod developers who tested the creation kit wasn't the best. Because famous essential bugs (esp navmesh) that where introduced in Fallout weren't found and reported.

I was astonished by that because one of the mod developers actually depends on that with one of his main mods, seems there is only very small communication with Fallout mod developers. Which actually had a discussion with a Beth developer about that bug (and sadly isn't fixed for Fallout 3/NV until today).

[Fowldragon]

In response to post #24731789. #24731909, #24732094, #24732139, #24732229, #24732289, #24734304, #24734404, #24734464, #24734509, #24735149, #24786969, #24787854, #24790254 are all replies on the same post.

nonemployee wrote:

Riprock wrote: Impossible to avoid ruffling feathers going the other way, I'm afraid. Omelet and eggs however, in my opinion. We can't go back but we can go forward :)

Avastgard wrote: I feel bad for the modders who took the time to make these updates only to have them removed days later. After this, we may never see SkyUI v. 5.

CelticPaladin wrote: If I received the death threats those people did I'd give modding a middle finger and go straight back into IT.

phantompally76 wrote: Those versions of Isoku's mods still belong to Valve. LEGALLY they can tell him he can't put them on here.

I'm not at all sure they'd be bold enough to try that though.

On the other hand, would he be bold enough to update them here?

sa547 wrote: It's unfortunate that on Reddit one of the members of the SkyUI team used the wrong approach and language, hence he sort of wrecked the mod's public image.

Aavok wrote: Wait, what happened on Reddit?

daedriccat wrote: He said that there was no community in Skyrim.

Beetlecat wrote: I'm not sure it's true that he *can't* distribute them elsewhere, only that Valve can legitimately do what they want with them.

phantompally76 wrote: Wasn't just reddit.

Go look at SKYUI's comments section on here. It's been locked, but the dev's arrogant, condescending and smug demeanor is preserved.

Yes, he was taking a beating from some VERY angry commenters, but he was also taunting them. That's unacceptable, and for that reason I will never upgrade or endorse SkyUI whether they upload it or not.

SirTopas wrote: @phantompally76 - But you'll keep using it, won't you? You seem to lack the strength of conviction to uninstall it, but you'll trash the authors and say "I won't upgrade". Pretty weak sauce.

diluvium wrote: "Those versions of Isoku's mods still belong to Valve. LEGALLY they can tell him he can't put them on here."

Re-read section 6 of your subscriber agreement - The rights you, I and Isoku granted to Valve in order to upload things are non-exclusive.

phantompally76 wrote: SirTopas, stand down.

I only use it anyway because 99% of mods require it. If I uninstall it, I forfeit the ability to mod at all, and I won't give those jerks the satisfaction. Nor you.

Given the choice, I would have never used it to begin with. If there was another option, you can bet I would use it.

As it is, I will never upgrade.

Regardless, it's honestly none of your business. But thanks for trying to make it yours. You've spent a great deal of the past few days sticking your nose in where it isn't wanted. I won't forget that, son.

foster xbl wrote: @phatom

So, you won't uninstall it.... But it was made by " a 14 year old stoner demanding you make him a living"
I'm sorry I know I said I was done.... But wow.
Who's the entitled hypocrite now.
With this one post you've completely proven everything
You've been spewing for days is totally Bull

Feel free to try and save face here with some asinine reply
But I won't see it, I'll take my leave knowing full well I was right about you.

Phantom,

Legality and established practice are not mutually exclusive...What Valve/Bethesda have done in past actions/policy establishes an expectation. If that policy is observed over a period of YEARS, they have , De FACTO rewritten their LEGAL rights. So IF such an Unexpected and contradictory action were taken on their part, they would not have any protection other than the ill-informed assumptions of those who don't know what the hell they're talking about. Edited April 29, 2015 by Fowldragon