Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Terramaris]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda turn are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

@Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda turn are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803579, #24803969, #24804034, #24804529, #24804714, #24806699 are all replies on the same post.

retakrew7 wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."

-Bethesda Game Studios

Donations don't work.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.

Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.

greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.

UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.

Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.

The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).

What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.

freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.

UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.

"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

-Bethesda Game Studios

I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.

beewyka819 wrote: Actually Vesuvius1746, you'll tend to find that modders are saying the same thing in how donations are rare and don't make them much money at all.

Donations don't work.

freedom613 wrote: Uber, modding isn't profitable in the long run for modders.

1. Paywalling will lead to a decrease in the quality of mods. If I can get the same, if not more, amount of money making a sword retexture than you can making a 20+ hour companion mod, why would you make a companion mod?

If you are going to make a big mod, you need to look at the opportunity cost. If you spend three months making a companion that will net you $800 when you could spend that same time either working a job which is a guaranteed fix income or making ten swords that will net you $100 each, why make the companion? Out of the goodness of your heart? That isn't how business works.

2. Modding is a community effort. Modders do not usually make 100% of their mod. Arissa 2, formerly a 3pdlc, used a great deal of content from other modders: hair, outfit, etc. When chesko finally removed the stuff he didn't make, the quality of the mod dropped.

Wet and Cold lost their amazing cloak textures. The fishing mod got yanked because Fore owned the animation files. The solution one would think is to cut the other 3pdlcers in on the proceeds yes?

Splitting the 25% cut, especially after paying thousands to buy the commercial licence for the programs you need isn't feasible economically. Which is why a one person retexture will always make more money than a group collab.

3. It puts modders in competition. Modding as I said before is community driven. Once money gets involved, that breaks down. Texturers that once helped each other are now competing against their former friends for market share. Instead of building each other up, they are tearing each other down. This backfires on you and me since we get a lower quality product.

4. Making 3pdlc has a higher barrier to entry:
$100 for Valve's fee.
$1,470 for the commerical version of 3ds Max
That ends up costing you $1,570 just to make a simple sword.

5. Income tax.
=============
As cool as it would be for modders to support themselves doing what they love, it just isn't feasible for the vast majority (even if you factor in Sturgeon's Law).

beewyka819 wrote: Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.

greggorypeccary wrote: beewyka819 said.
Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.

Ah ha!! now you're talkin'

sunshinenbrick wrote: "...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

They actually said this???

You do realise with that statement they are probably saying that modders will be doing more WORK than the original developers. Do people not see this?

UberSmaug wrote: @freedom613. you have some valid points but I still feel you are underestimating the potential here. Yes there are cost involved, its call overhead. "1,570 to make a simple sword". But why would you stop after making just one sword. License is a one time fee to make many product that will pay out over time. Every new mod you produce has the potential for profit. Could you fall flat on your face in failure. Sure. There is risk in business. Still the decision to make that risk should be left to the individual mod author should it not. Regurdless I was responding to the fact that people are saying Donations work leave it alone.

Donations do not work.

Even top modders against paid mods have said as much.



I disagree that money will end all collaboration. Nothing would stop Authors from making deals to share profits in exchange for using each others assets. You would just have to ask.

freedom613 wrote: That 1,470$ is per year by the way. So in order to profit, you need to make $1,570 a year and that is if you are just a 3d modeler. I am not factoring in any other products you need to licence.

I went on a tangent some where here on how modding is profitable (with all these conversations on four different forums and threads, I get lost with what I posted) for big projects, so the future of 3rd party DLC is going to be whatever gives the most return on investment when you factor in opportunity cost and the fixed total costs: simple items. Giant mods such as companions, quests, and the such are not profitable in the long run due to fees you have to pay to your team, and that it would take less time and earn you a bigger ROI just to make items. I go on more about this earlier in the thread, point being: Is that the future of 3rd Party DLC that we want?

To be honest, if mods are going to be behind a paywall, I would rather them go the route of Insurgency and Team Fortress 2 and the like and get financed by a big company and I buy the mod knowing it will have good quality and will be compatible with the rest of my products.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I don't think playing games should be a business. There are already enough things in the world to spend money on and enough blurring of the lines between leisure and work.

UberSmaug wrote: Again, Purity made over $1000 in 5 days. some of the armor and swords had already made $800-$1000. In 5 days. That cost would have been covered in no time at all. people could continue to make large mods for free if they wish.

blackasm wrote: if you are looking for donations you are better off beggin on the side of the road. 100 000 downloads = 1 donation, a number of bums I give change to I know do better than that.

freedom613 wrote: Uber, this assumes that the sales would remain constant, or wouldn't decrease greatly (not to mention the controversy helped boost sales). Do not forget that Purity, Arissa, Wet and Cold. They were already made mods with a bit extra tacked on. The opportunity cost for that was low enough so that it was profitable. The maths doesn't lie:
Why spent 3 months making a companion mod that will net you $1000 when you can spend 3 months making a dozen swords that would net you $100 each?

Again it would take (where are we now) at least 3 - 4 years before many major mods were stable enough and bug free enough to actually warrant people paying for them. This is not just down to the modders, it is the fact that Bethesda games usually need about 5 - 7 patches before things run as they were originally intended. The next games might have new game engine code and even a revamped sdk which means even veteran modders will take time to adjust to.

The problem for me is not so much paying money for GOOD mods but the fact that they allowed everyone to exploit each other for quick money.

Begging is not usually the best way to get someone to want to donate to you. Edited April 29, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[Patriotlegend]

I just want to say something about all this issue.I live in in poor country and i understand much better than much of people here how precious is every cent and dollar you earn.I m not mod author but i understand how time consuming this hobby can be.I wish i could donate as much as i can,but i dont even have credit card and because of that it's impossible for me to donate,at least for now,hope it will change in near future.I m not hardcore gamer,i play occasionally but i fully appreciate every modder who tried everything what he(she) can to make this game better.Many people hated to see mods behind paywall,i was of course one of them because,but i didnt ONE second blame any mod authors who tried to earn some money out of their work.I didnt like the way Valve and Bethesda handled this and they were responsible for all this fiasco.Please people,hate and anger will never accomplish anything,it's not case only here,it's case in anything what you do in real life.Think about this,modders like Chesko,Arthmoor and Isoku were contacted by Valve and Bethesda for God's sake,it's maybe lifetime opportunity and how can they say no to them?Many people hated 75%-25% split and i of course hated because it's showed greed of publishers rather than support of modders IMO,but still it was their choice and they accepted than split.Again,ONE SECOND i didnt blame any of mod authors for accepting this invitation and i hope many mod users,like myself,will always support modders in their decisions no matter how popular or not so popular that decision can be.If you disagree with them,you can just say:"I love your mods,I wish you luck,but i cant support you in this,sorry".Is this hard thing to do?On the other hand,i fully understand people why they feared this potencial new system with paying mods,and lets be clear on start,it's not because they decided right now,almost 4 years after Skyrim release to put mods on paywall.Most people were concerned about future and what will this mean for PC gaming.My first reaction was that this was done in preparation for Fallout 4 unfortunaley,but they wanted to see reaction with Skyrim mods and how community will recieve this,dare i say,shock.Community was outraged of course,but i m not sure if they will not put mods on paywall when it comes for Fallout 4.My biggest concern was about Nexus and will they dare to actually shut down sites like Nexus and force everybody to put mods on Steam?Many people feared about that and this is legitimate fear because Nexus is still most popular site when it comes to mods and i hope it will be the case in future.Steam workshop is flawed system,they have so many disadvantages and many people just dont want to download mods from there,much less paid mods.All in all,i hope for best in future,wish luck everybody here,spread postivie energy and nice and gentle words.Hate and ignorance will accomplish absolutely nothing and remember:United we stand,divided we fall.Peace and have a nice day.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24806924.

Patriotlegend wrote:

I think this was a common fear for further down the road. I was going to mention the fact that $1, which many people seem to laugh at, is A LOT of money in other parts of the world. Thank you for speaking up and sharing this point of view from first hand experience. Edited April 29, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[greggorypeccary]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda turn are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

[Marstonn]

In response to post #24806924. #24807009 is also a reply to the same post.

Patriotlegend wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think this was a common fear for further down the road. I was going to mention the fact that $1, which many people seem to laugh at, is A LOT of money in other parts of the world. Thank you for speaking up and sharing this point of view from first hand experience.

Look this wall, the paywall was much better =/

[Marstonn]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda turn are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

greggorypeccary wrote: I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and uploaded videos so they can do what they want.

Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to uploaded to it.

Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job.

However if they could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745
Well i should make videos instead of mods ^^

To be more serious : you miss an important point :
Bethesda allow site like nexus to gain $500.000 a year from ads, while being a platform for downloading free mods.. made with the creation kit and their assets. And the sole maker of some of the said mods would not be able to gain some buck from the same kind of earnings ???
crazy.

Again the mod is not SELL, the mod is free, the mod doesn't give a cent to the modder, only the ads give money. And that's absolutely legal, beacause i can already put ads on my own website showing my mods with no risks.

No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

Edit, example: MMoxreview the guy from Skyrim Mods Weekly is a part of Machinima, so that's why he can monetize. Edited April 29, 2015 by Marstonn

[greggorypeccary]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda turn are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

Marstonn wrote: No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807344 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda turn are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

Marstonn wrote: No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

Edit, example: MMoxreview the guy from Skyrim Mods Weekly is a part of Machinima, so that's why he can monetize.

greggorypeccary wrote: I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745
Well i should make videos instead of mods ^^

To be more serious : you miss an important point :
Bethesda allow site like nexus to gain $500.000 a year from ads, while being a platform for downloading free mods.. made with the creation kit and their assets. And the sole maker of some of the said mods would not be able to gain some buck from the same kind of earnings ???
crazy.

Again the mod is not SELL, the mod is free, the mod doesn't give a cent to the modder, only the ads give money. And that's absolutely legal, beacause i can already put ads on my own website showing my mods with no risks.

The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and licence uploaded videos so they can do what they want.

Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to be uploaded to it.

Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job.

However if Bethesda could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.
Edited April 29, 2015 by sunshinenbrick