Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[lFostelR]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

[CaladanAnduril]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

[lereddit]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

[CaladanAnduril]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

[lereddit]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.

With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.

[Terramaris]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854, #24830894 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.

With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.

@Foster
One of the problems with paid mods was a precedent it setup:

Suppose a company, ElectronicSoft, wants to release day 1 DLC. They know they are going to get flak so instead they get a shell company: Ubigames to release the DLC as a paid "mod".


If they get flak, Electronicsoft can just say "Oh no, we are against Day1 DLC, but we fully support modders getting paid for their work".

As you can see, this problem is a whole lot larger than modders wanting some cash. This sets a bad precedent and for that reason must be stopped in it's tracks.


They can also do this with their DLC, cut out the time and cost running the already poor quality beta testing of DLC and just release it through their shell company as a 3rd Party DLC while reaping all the profits minus Valve's (if they don't decide to cut out the middle man) cut and have none of the accountability.


So while this program is allegedly built on good intentions (let us face it, Valve and Bethesda did this as a cash grab), much like the PATRIOT Act, there is a lot of wiggle room to put in less than favourable business practices.
=========
So yes, paywalling had to go for the greater good. The gaming industry is exploitative, and will wiggle into everything they can to make a profit. Now this does not mean that we are against modder compensation. One of the problems with this whole fiasco was the strawmen setup by both parties. Now I am not talking about donations, anyone here who believes the status quo worked is being naive at best. A system similar to Patreon, which Youtubers and Minecraft modders have been using would be a well recieved solution.

My economics professor gave me a fun quote that I will never forget "Always use the right tool for the job, never use a hammer to put in a screw if there is a screw driver near by". He meant this mostly in marketing by giving the example of using Television to advertise your company in a town of luddites, but the same can be applied here. Paywalling is using a hammer to put in a screw, when there are other tools available. Edited April 30, 2015 by freedom613

[Marstonn]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831029 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.

I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trolls

Lereddit,

Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names. Edited April 30, 2015 by Vesuvius1745