Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Wolvenlight]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

retnav98 wrote: I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.

Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.

But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.

You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.

NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.

Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties.

I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was.

[lereddit]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429, #24836069 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

retnav98 wrote: I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.

Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.

But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.

You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.

NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.

Wolvenlight wrote: Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties.

I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was.

@foster xbl

Wait, you think it's okay that a big project can't get any profit due to this deal while any retard who knows how to port swords from DOTA2 can grab their 25%?

You must have no idea what you are talking about.

[Wolvenlight]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334, #24832364, #24833474, #24833569 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit,

Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.

I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trolls

Marstonn wrote: I'm a flamer, i won.

CaladanAnduril wrote: You just proven my point... if a calm and rational but opposite point of view is dropping on you, your only reaction is to curse and offend your opponent....
Delusional... I have dealt with your kind for many years and I find your kind pathetic.
That's all you could?
Injurious comments towards those who have a different point of view?

Pathetic... btw, I watched this discussion from the beginning, refraining myself from comments, but I have noticed that same names keep showing again and again with vitriolant behaviour towards those who don't agree with you... your name is one

Pitiful mind could write only pitifull comments... you "won" keep your victory flag close, you will need it in the near future

macintroll wrote: "lereddit " part of the army ? :D
Of course you did take this pseudo by "pure hazard" ... ^^

Vesuvius1745 wrote: CaladanAnduril is lecturing people on name calling, while calling them names. How droll.

Marstonn wrote: Caladan

I was just kidding man, i'm a pro paid mods, i bought 2 of them to support, i dreamed amazing dozens of falksaars coming, armors 4k texture perfect made been launched for few steam cards. But it seems the people didn't think this way.

The mods was removed, i noticed the anti paid just don't want paid mods, they will argue 1000 reasons, but is simple, they don't want pay for mod and the are afraid to lose "their" mods.

They already removed the paid mods, don't matter why, who, when, how discussions. I hope they bring paid mods back, with more QA, but if they relaunch tomorow, i'll support (buying) the mods again.

lereddit wrote: @macintroll

Of course not. Chose this name as a parody of reddit's idiocy and went with it because I couldn't think of something better.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Maybe my English is not so good like yours, but I don't make statements regarding how the others should act.

" People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community"... since then?
Since then you have the RIGHT to decide what I must do?
You are just a pathetic troll, who was so disgusting this days against those who feeded you with tons of mods for FREE so many years.
And now you have RIGHTS? Maybe in your LaLa Land ...

You and the other hatred trolls have trashed the very notion of FREE modding and very soon you will cash in the reward... but it will be a bittter one.

Sorry if my English is offending your suave ears...

lereddit wrote: Am I really being lectured about not having rights because I never created a mod?

I made a few rather bad ones for private use. Never released one. I know that modding is hard. So what?

Also, resorting to calling me and the other people trolls just shows that you are running out of arguments. Please stop, it's painful to watch

CaladanAnduril wrote: Not for me... for me IS fun fun to watch your next predictable step, trying to patronize your "opponent"

And I mopping with your kind( not particularly with you) because your kind denise MY kind to have an opinion based on OUR hard work over the time.
You are wining about quality...helo!!! wake up child, ANY free mod is provided AS IS.
No matter most of the mod authors provide updates and fixes WHEN they could, your kind is still "unhappy" not to be provided WHEN you want, in your LaLa Land you have RIGHTS... your so called rights are in fact DEMANDS, spoken on an outrageous tone.
And your KIND proved this days how low could reach human nature

And don't bother to look after my profile, rofl, I have long time ago moved my mods from Nexus.

lereddit wrote: Yeah, whatever bro. No use arguing with lunatics on the internet

Gimme some of that weed you're smoking, I wanna go to LaLa land too.
Holy s#*!, at least try to speak in coherent sentences. Or use google translator

Vesuvius1745 wrote: First of all, you have no idea what I have or haven't contributed. If you've read some of my other posts, you might get an idea. But you know what? That's irrelevant.

I would never want payment for a mod I created, and this is the main reason: because, as you have said, I HAVE enjoyed all the free content that has been provided to the community for years. And you know what? So have YOU. Contributing to the community is called paying-it-forward, and every mod out there (and I don't care how individual you think your specific snowflake is), was a GROUP EFFORT--the culmination of everything and everyone who has come before you to make this possible.

Programmers who have a lot more skill than is required for a game mod have donated their efforts to bring some outstanding utilities and resources to the community (ENB, SKSE, FORE, Wyre Bash, and on and on and on). Many mods would not even function without these free resources, or would be mediocre. They gave these things to the community with no expectation of anything other than to encourage creativity, and more mods being shared with everybody. The same goes for every other mod author who has released a free mod (they have enjoyed free mods from the same community, and they are giving something back). Mod authors learn how to create mods by dissecting other mods, they borrow resources, they piggy-back on the work of others. And this is FINE. It's the nature of an "open source" community. But when you want to piggy-back on the work of others so you can make a profit from what others have allowed you to do, there is going to be a backlash.

Merinid wrote: @Vesuvius1745 man that's some true words. May i quote you? :)

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Thanks, yeah anything I have written feel free to quote.

I dunno Caladan, Ves has been nice to me so far. Granted, I don't agree with his points, and yeah, I've seen him lash out at others, but I think that has more to do with everyone lashing out at everyone.

People like Phantompally on the other hand... Holy crap, that guy needed to calm down. Thankfully, he seems to have realized this as well.

As for OP, you'll find all kinds. I'm a leech who was neutral, but I find myself siding with the pro-paid mods group more often than not. The only thing I don't like about paid mod systems is how I've heard that it messed up modding communities in other games, like the Sims.

[ShinMorita]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334, #24832364, #24833474, #24833569, #24836294 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit,

Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.

I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trolls

Marstonn wrote: I'm a flamer, i won.

CaladanAnduril wrote: You just proven my point... if a calm and rational but opposite point of view is dropping on you, your only reaction is to curse and offend your opponent....
Delusional... I have dealt with your kind for many years and I find your kind pathetic.
That's all you could?
Injurious comments towards those who have a different point of view?

Pathetic... btw, I watched this discussion from the beginning, refraining myself from comments, but I have noticed that same names keep showing again and again with vitriolant behaviour towards those who don't agree with you... your name is one

Pitiful mind could write only pitifull comments... you "won" keep your victory flag close, you will need it in the near future

macintroll wrote: "lereddit " part of the army ? :D
Of course you did take this pseudo by "pure hazard" ... ^^

Vesuvius1745 wrote: CaladanAnduril is lecturing people on name calling, while calling them names. How droll.

Marstonn wrote: Caladan

I was just kidding man, i'm a pro paid mods, i bought 2 of them to support, i dreamed amazing dozens of falksaars coming, armors 4k texture perfect made been launched for few steam cards. But it seems the people didn't think this way.

The mods was removed, i noticed the anti paid just don't want paid mods, they will argue 1000 reasons, but is simple, they don't want pay for mod and the are afraid to lose "their" mods.

They already removed the paid mods, don't matter why, who, when, how discussions. I hope they bring paid mods back, with more QA, but if they relaunch tomorow, i'll support (buying) the mods again.

lereddit wrote: @macintroll

Of course not. Chose this name as a parody of reddit's idiocy and went with it because I couldn't think of something better.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Maybe my English is not so good like yours, but I don't make statements regarding how the others should act.

" People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community"... since then?
Since then you have the RIGHT to decide what I must do?
You are just a pathetic troll, who was so disgusting this days against those who feeded you with tons of mods for FREE so many years.
And now you have RIGHTS? Maybe in your LaLa Land ...

You and the other hatred trolls have trashed the very notion of FREE modding and very soon you will cash in the reward... but it will be a bittter one.

Sorry if my English is offending your suave ears...

lereddit wrote: Am I really being lectured about not having rights because I never created a mod?

I made a few rather bad ones for private use. Never released one. I know that modding is hard. So what?

Also, resorting to calling me and the other people trolls just shows that you are running out of arguments. Please stop, it's painful to watch

CaladanAnduril wrote: Not for me... for me IS fun fun to watch your next predictable step, trying to patronize your "opponent"

And I mopping with your kind( not particularly with you) because your kind denise MY kind to have an opinion based on OUR hard work over the time.
You are wining about quality...helo!!! wake up child, ANY free mod is provided AS IS.
No matter most of the mod authors provide updates and fixes WHEN they could, your kind is still "unhappy" not to be provided WHEN you want, in your LaLa Land you have RIGHTS... your so called rights are in fact DEMANDS, spoken on an outrageous tone.
And your KIND proved this days how low could reach human nature

And don't bother to look after my profile, rofl, I have long time ago moved my mods from Nexus.

lereddit wrote: Yeah, whatever bro. No use arguing with lunatics on the internet

Gimme some of that weed you're smoking, I wanna go to LaLa land too.
Holy s#*!, at least try to speak in coherent sentences. Or use google translator

Vesuvius1745 wrote: First of all, you have no idea what I have or haven't contributed. If you've read some of my other posts, you might get an idea. But you know what? That's irrelevant.

I would never want payment for a mod I created, and this is the main reason: because, as you have said, I HAVE enjoyed all the free content that has been provided to the community for years. And you know what? So have YOU. Contributing to the community is called paying-it-forward, and every mod out there (and I don't care how individual you think your specific snowflake is), was a GROUP EFFORT--the culmination of everything and everyone who has come before you to make this possible.

Programmers who have a lot more skill than is required for a game mod have donated their efforts to bring some outstanding utilities and resources to the community (ENB, SKSE, FORE, Wyre Bash, and on and on and on). Many mods would not even function without these free resources, or would be mediocre. They gave these things to the community with no expectation of anything other than to encourage creativity, and more mods being shared with everybody. The same goes for every other mod author who has released a free mod (they have enjoyed free mods from the same community, and they are giving something back). Mod authors learn how to create mods by dissecting other mods, they borrow resources, they piggy-back on the work of others. And this is FINE. It's the nature of an "open source" community. But when you want to piggy-back on the work of others so you can make a profit from what others have allowed you to do, there is going to be a backlash.

Merinid wrote: @Vesuvius1745 man that's some true words. May i quote you? :)

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Thanks, yeah anything I have written feel free to quote.

Wolvenlight wrote: I dunno Caladan, Ves has been nice to me so far. Granted, I don't agree with his points, and yeah, I've seen him lash out at others, but I think that has more to do with everyone lashing out at everyone.

People like Phantompally on the other hand... Holy crap, that guy needed to calm down. Thankfully, he seems to have realized this as well.

As for OP, you'll find all kinds. I'm a leech who was neutral, but I find myself siding with the pro-paid mods group more often than not. The only thing I don't like about paid mod systems is how I've heard that it messed up modding communities in other games, like the Sims.

@ acidzebra
So i guess that because i dont interact much with the "community" as you said, and cuz im not a modder myself, im a "leech" or "troll"? Maybe im not a modder because i cant realy get the hang of it, or maybe because i simply dont have the time to be modding, has that occured to you? Or, i might not donate to modders because i dont have the means to, or maybe because my parents wont allow me to spend money on the internet... Did this occured to you? Or even, i might not interact much with the community because i might be antisocial, or even shy... Did any of this occured to you? i guess no, otherwise you wouldnt have posted this comment here.
I did not insult any modder, neither stated my opinion about paied mods anywhere else, besides this post here.
Fyi, I did agree with modders being rewarded for their work... If there's something i know about, is doing something you know you worked hard for and not get any recognition from it, it sucks badly, proly one of the worst feelings in the world.
What i didnt agree was, that valve and bethesda were getting the majority of the cut, not to mention i read a post on reddit that bethesda thretened to sue a modder for trying to sell part of his mod some time ago, and now they join valve and come forward with the idea of selling mods? Like, what the f*** man?!... It's not fair, even less fair is that modders would only see any profit of their work if they'd sold more that 100$...
Working hard for something and not getting anything just because people didnt paied more than 100$ for it? It is not fair for modders.
Before you start adressing to the "community", you might want to rethink about what you are going to say first.

You're randomly judgeing people for said interactions or files uploaded without even knowing them... What does that make you? Does that make you any better than those who raged on the modders?
You're not a judge and even if you are, this isnt a court of law.

Instead of being around throwing more wood to the fire, you should instead try to help those who raged on modders realize that modders are the very pillars of the community, and if they decided to participate on the "Paied Mods" program, they had their own reasons, and best we, as a community, can do is support them on their decision, regardless of its outcome. Edited April 30, 2015 by ShinMorita

[retnav98]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429, #24836069, #24836109 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

retnav98 wrote: I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.

Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.

But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.

You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.

NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.

Wolvenlight wrote: Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties.

I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was.

lereddit wrote: @foster xbl

Wait, you think it's okay that a big project can't get any profit due to this deal while any retard who knows how to port swords from DOTA2 can grab their 25%?

You must have no idea what you are talking about.

You know lerredit,

You're a 3 inch wart infested D1CK! Just kidding.


Actually...I'm not.

There's NO reason to degrade people. The fact that you're separated by firewalls makes you all the more pathetic.

Edited April 30, 2015 by retnav98

[Ulfric1]

Say whatever you want, this was a money grab. Doesn't matter if most of the money went to Steam or Bethesda, as long as its not purely going to the modders, and there's no real quality assurance, the idea is poop as far as I'm concerned.

[retnav98]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429, #24836069, #24836109, #24836554 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

retnav98 wrote: I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.

Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.

But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.

You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.

NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.

Wolvenlight wrote: Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties.

I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was.

lereddit wrote: @foster xbl

Wait, you think it's okay that a big project can't get any profit due to this deal while any retard who knows how to port swords from DOTA2 can grab their 25%?

You must have no idea what you are talking about.

retnav98 wrote: You know lerredit,

You're a 3 inch wart infested D1CK! Just kidding.


Actually...I'm not.

There's NO reason to degrade people. The fact that you're separated by firewalls makes you all the more pathetic.

@Wolvenlight

I get your point to a degree..

I would question the level of liability a publisher (or any of your other examples) shares...and the percentage of cost they absorb...

I honestly cannot see that Valve maintained any more cost than they did with mods that were free...now if any of your examples involved the option of FREE books, music, food in direct competition with PAID, you might have a more cogent point.

Edited April 30, 2015 by retnav98

[likelolwhat]

For those who are saying that people who want all free mods forever are "leechers" and feel entitled to free stuff, let me turn that around for a moment.

 

Aren't modders who've been making mods for free for years, as a hobby, as experience, whatever, and now suddenly expecting, no, DEMANDING they be paid for what was previously free -- aren't they leechers as well?

[lereddit]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429, #24836069, #24836109, #24836554, #24837014 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

retnav98 wrote: I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.

Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.

But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.

You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.

NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.

Wolvenlight wrote: Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties.

I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was.

lereddit wrote: @foster xbl

Wait, you think it's okay that a big project can't get any profit due to this deal while any retard who knows how to port swords from DOTA2 can grab their 25%?

You must have no idea what you are talking about.

retnav98 wrote: You know lerredit,

You're a 3 inch wart infested D1CK! Just kidding.


Actually...I'm not.

There's NO reason to degrade people. The fact that you're separated by firewalls makes you all the more pathetic.

retnav98 wrote: @Wolvenlight

I get your point to a degree..

I would question the level of liability a publisher (or any of your other examples) shares...and the percentage of cost they absorb...

I honestly cannot see that Valve maintained any more cost than they did with mods that were free...now if any of your examples involved the option of FREE books, music, food in direct competition with PAID, you might have a more cogent point.

@retnav98

Yeah no, he admitted as much as not having an idea about the details.

And the one who starts calling names is the dick here, my friend

[Riprock]

In response to post #24837054.

likelolwhat wrote: For those who are saying that people who want all free mods forever are "leechers" and feel entitled to free stuff, let me turn that around for a moment.

Aren't modders who've been making mods for free for years, as a hobby, as experience, whatever, and now suddenly expecting, no, DEMANDING they be paid for what was previously free -- aren't they leechers as well?

Certainly not. They at least produced something. However. While I do not consider it leeching for them to do that, I do find it presumptive of them to do that. But in any case, a small percentage of authors feel that way. I see many more that want to to continue to contribute because they want to. Almost everyone wants this to be "us versus them" it seems but like most things in life, that's too simplistic and doesn't really describe what's happening.