Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[WightMage]

In response to post #24870864. #24885899, #24887074, #24887189 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

Of all the things said in the TotalBiscuit interview done by Brumbek and Dark0ne that I think best speaks to what happened last weekend was that normal subscriptions run from between 3000 - 6000 per day , yet on Saturday of last week it was over 13000 . I would even imagine Dark0ne if he cared to share the data could tell us there was a mini spike in premiun memberships and with the flood of people coming in it tells us 3 things . 1) Some of these people were so panicked that they thought the only way they could fix it was by buying a premiun membership (notice how many people had premiun memberships yet were making their first post ever) 2) alot of them just screamed and freaked out (notice how many people sreaming that had like a very short post count , again some of them their very first post) 3) all of this was coming down on modders making them feel the community didn't support them or appreciate them . Simple fact is our community got invaded last week because many didn't know where else to go when it comes to where mods come from .

 

Nexus: 1) A connection or series of connections linking two or more things:the nexus between industry and political power

 

2) A connected group or series: a nexus of ideas

 

3)A central or focal point: the nexus of any government in this country is No. 10

 

I would be very interested in the statistics of subscription to the site and premiun member increase if one . Think that would tell us alot about how much of a focal point we were , because I dont think what happened is indicative of this community.

Brasscatcher wrote: This is a five-star post, sir. You raise several salient points, I too would be interested in seeing the data. Heck, I know my own "traffic" increased exponentially over this weekend.

What can I say, I'm normally not very chatty. :)

sunshinenbrick wrote: The more I read and think about this, the more I start realising... it was a very crafty plan.

Brasscatcher wrote: @sunshinen Right? One of the dangers of light-speed communications. You can transmit data rapidly..but correct interpretation takes much much longer.

Conspiracy Theory: What if this was an elaborate scheme to get people to donate more, buy more premium memberships, and weed out the chaff?

[WightMage]

In response to post #24859024. #24859239, #24860709, #24861914, #24870839, #24875649, #24877069, #24877239, #24877524, #24886889 are all replies on the same post.

wulfharth wrote: Sometimes an idea once presented will persist as a part of the public consciousness forever. Finding out that Bethesda is in favor of individuals being paid to create content that adds life to their games will cause a massive change in the entire modding community.

Expect to see professional DLC creating studios in the future. Modders will soon have an opportunity to mod full-time and make a living from it. I wouldn't be surprised if these studios became sub-studios of Bethesda someday.

The downside is that the most professional and biggest mods will be paid mods (much like now). The upside is that there will be more DLC quality mods available and probably with additional support from Bethesda in terms of rigging files and code.

I have never failed to buy a mod for a TES game since Morrowind, and I've considered them all money well spent. I really look forward to the prospect of more of that type of content becoming available. The sooner this site adapts to this possibility, the better it will be able to stay a foundation piece of this community.

pokenar wrote: I was not actually one of those against paid mods, I just didn't like the execution. there were many many many issues with how bethesda and valve did it.

wulfharth wrote: Those percentages are pretty standard for a situation like that. If you read the Beth Blog, they will explain it. Valve was even going to share some of their cut with the Nexus.

Also, I think it's sad that people attacked modders who were trying to exercise an opportunity that was given to them. Nothing was taken away, an option was added for the modder.

It's old news now, but it's a sad day for artistic freedom. People think they don't have to pay for art because the artist enjoys their work. That mentality needs to change if modding is to thrive and reach it's true potential.

welikedustybetter wrote: Modding is different than art in many ways. There are many aspects to consider. Mods can be buggy or incompatible with each other or with your game or system. This is exacerbated by the bugs or stability issues native to the game. Then there's the fact that many mods are dependent upon other mods. Then there are modders resources and frameworks. Would there then also be royalty fees? A paid mods system would be a legal nightmare.

To sum up my opinion on this, I think modders provide a very valuable service to these games, and they should get paid for it. However, I think a donation system is much more suited for this. Someone else made a good long post on it in a previous Nexus article, so I won't bother, but I think the current system could use some tweaks that remind users that they can donate to the mod author, and perhaps reward those that do.

wulfharth wrote: Donation systems do not work. People mostly don't bother to endorse even to the best of the best mods. Do you really think they will take the time to give out of the kindness of their hearts? Historically on this site, no. They don't understand how long it takes to add a simple model or build a dungeon.

Modding requires creativity and is undeniably Art. That's why game development is taught at art academies in America.

If everyone gave one penny to each mod they use right now, Some people could quite their jobs and mod full time. That means more mods, more updates, and more compatibility patches. Mod theft and asset theft is easy to control with the reporting system we already have in place. Creators of buggy mods will not be endorsed and will not receive repeat business.

thefinn wrote: Yeah the percentages really were a slap in the face - even if it really was just a perception thing.

If it had been an even spread of 33% each, it might've been better.

However, giving the modder 25% of the take, while the other 2 parties take the lions share, kind of says "You are the least important part of this process." doesn't it ?

It certainly gave me that perception of their views.

muter3456 wrote: " Donations Systems do not work "

Yea. That's why Tarn Adams, a full on game developer, artists, even twitch streamers DEFINITELY don't make their money off donations. Definitely don't.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The modding community has been doing just fine for over a decade. If ain't broke, don't fix it.

But if you want to start your own mod-studio or whatnot, and sell your DLC to Bethesda or whatever, good luck with that :)

treota wrote: "Some people could quit their jobs and mod full time" - I think you nailed it there. SOME people could mod full time.

It is very unlikely to create an environment where any modder can put the effort in and make a living off it, what is significantly more likely is that SOME modders who either get lucky or have more support will be able to make a meager living off their work and most modders will have to do exactly the same as they always have.

Also with the introduction of money into the system you will cull a large portion of your audience, which personally I would say leads to less mods being created. Evidence? Name a game that has over 12,000 DLC and customers willing to pay for it (seriously I'm curious if one exists, closest I can think of is Borderlands or Dawn of War 2).

To be optimistic lets say the average customer that pays for the game (note that the base game is not free here) is also willing to buy 20 mods, 10 of those mods are most likely to be the 'essential' mods that are always the same, so 10 mod makers/studios can make a small profit.
The other 10 are just random items spread between the modding community as a whole and as such are probably not providing the authors with any real profit. Please note that if the next TES game is FREE with paid modding it might be a different story.

Boyninja616 wrote: It's nice that you have the disposable income to be able to pay for them. Some of us can merely afford the original game.

And yet, the team behind Beyond Skyrim have said, officially, that even if they could charge for their mod, they wouldn't. They can't due to license limitations on some of the resources they're using, but the meat of the matter remains the same. I do not know of any big and/or professional mods that charge for their download. Perhaps you could enlighten me? Searching for paid mods yields results like this page.

You've said that money will attract "Talent" and "Quality". I'll go into why I think that's false later, but I don't know if you've noticed, the best mods (The best for a reason - Adding good quality or large amounts of new content) on the Nexus were all developed and released for free (As well as every single other one). A lot of modder's resources were also released for free.

The Nexus has been around since 2003. In those 12 years I doubt anyone, particularly in the early years, had any idea that something like this debacle would come to fruition. Modders slaved away with the Development Kit and other relevant programs to bring their fellow players something to enjoy. It was a labour of love; Even you contributed your Dragonbone weapons set to Immersive Weapons, a free mod.

Yet, as soon as the prospect of making money was introduced, several modders (Yourself included) metaphorically jumped for joy. As soon as the community showed what they thought about the idea, you as a group became bitter and resentful. You had no idea how much you were going to make from your creations (You can't use the few examples we have as the benchmark) and it doesn't make sense to attack and alienate the entire community (Not just the whingers) over what could be a few hundred $.

Don't even get me started on the legal wranglings (Particularly when it comes to modder's resources) and adhering to consumer law in every country your mod is downloaded in (Something that Steam itself doesn't actually do).

I will freely admit that I don't make mods myself, and that I have only endorsed 5 files in my 7 years here. The only reason I didn't donate was because, like many here, I had no idea you could.

I do, however, have a YouTube channel. It is admittedly small, but the work that goes into creating, editing and processing the content is no less daunting and time-consuming. I do it as a hobby, for other people's entertainment in my spare time. That is my motivation, even though I know that view counts won't even get in to triple figures. I would never force people to pay to watch my videos (Hell, I don't even advertise anywhere). If my channel were to get bigger, than I would use a platform like Patreon to allow people to donate, but I wouldn't hold it against them if they'd rather keep their money to themselves.

I just don't see why some modders have taken such a hostile attitude to this whole fiasco. I'm not on the side of the community; Some of the vitriol was sickening, but I'm not on the side of the modders who've shut the door on everyone either.

Good post.

[Terramaris]

In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584 are all replies on the same post.

freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.

WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*

cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.

It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.

This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.

@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire. Edited May 2, 2015 by freedom613

[np11]

In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579, #24879589, #24882059, #24884249, #24885029, #24885084, #24885349, #24885354, #24885399, #24885969, #24885999, #24887819, #24887979, #24888049 are all replies on the same post.

thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.

They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.

There's way too much money involved for this to go away.

Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.

Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.

wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.

Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?

How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.

wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.

So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.

Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.

I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.

thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.

There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.

I don't see how it was "incomplete".

wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.

You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.

thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"

The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.

So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.

However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.

It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.

wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.

thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.

They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.

And they would be...
1) In their rights to do so.
2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?

Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.

thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?

DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.

Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.

Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.

wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.

wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?

Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.

thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.

Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.

crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,

Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.

Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.

treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.

More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).

I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.

thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

Nicholas Butler

treota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.

Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :)

oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like him

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).

And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.

It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?

Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?

thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.

However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.

Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.
Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.

So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s#*!.

Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.

At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming

The only question remains "how?" and "when?"

The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.

From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).

The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!

Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).

For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?

HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.

Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.

There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.
I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.

Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.

Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.

Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free mod

WightMage wrote: Have we really come to this?

treota wrote: @thefinn
I agree with pretty much everything there, however the consumer does vastly dictate the payment platform. If consumers disagree with the way said creators make money then they will not spend their money there and the creator will have no choice but to try a different way of making money. (for the record I totally agree paid mods are here to stay, nothing to be done about it now)

Which is where the somewhat wrong saying comes from "the customer is always right". (yeah I hate that crap too, worked in retail for a few years and that line just grinds the gears) It is true in the sense that if the customer disagrees then your job and livelihood is down the drain.

Any opinion is the same value as any other opinion, it's the person who decides which opinions are more or less valid to them personally.

wulfharth wrote: @crashpilot- Good morning. I had a lot more up, but I pulled them down because the community showed how appreciative it is. I'm re-working most of it to release when paid mods come back. Which will probably be with TES6. If you check the credits in the top 20 file "Immersive Weapons", you will see that I made that entire dragonbone weapon set. You've likely been using my weapons for years.

I've pulled everything down. The more our community shows it's true colors, the more mod authors will follow suit.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth lol oh well then guess we dont see your mods for free it dont bother me one bit.. Ill give my money to non chilish mod authors

np11 wrote: @wulfharth Good PR there, I'd love to see how many people who've actually seen you post will buy these fabled mods.

People, before you start selling things, you should really take some business, marketing or even psychology classes. Addressing potential customers like that and expecting your business to flourish... Good luck with that.

Tanesis12 wrote: @ Vesuvius1745 I think that paid mods will be on the next Beth game, whether TES or FO. I don't think however it will imact quality as that would be a second pr disaster that Beth don't need.

@ thefinn "They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded."

I think that Beth would want more control over modding in general if theres money involved. If only 1 site was allowed to run paid mods then mod authors would obviously prefere that site if they directly benefitted (I think?).

Incorporation of real life monies will change the way people use mods drasitcally and alter the relationship between mod author and mod consumer, the later who is now a customer (who should be able to expect certain consumer rights but thats a different issue). I can't help but feel that when, rather than if, mods become paid the only real winners will be Beth & Valve.

Also good posts thefinn, nicely insightful.

3AMt wrote: Horse armors, swords and hats for 1.99 each for everyone. Yeah have fun selling mods.

Brasscatcher wrote: I do try to avoid name calling, but I will call stupid behavior what it is. Most of this thread is full of stupid. Go ahead, accept Bethesda's offer. I bet every single one of you won't see a single bit of useful profit from anything you create. If you think trash-talking or belittling part of the community, or attempting to invalidate the opinions of one part of the community will net you anything, you are incorrect.


Stop being stupid. Be productive instead.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Wulfharth

You should toughen your emotional "skin" if you want to stay in the modders community.
People like vesuvius will ALWAYS have DEMANDS, stupid and irrelevant for you.

Because THAT is what he want to smoke screen behind his fancy words and pseudo arguments, his pitiful demands.

Hi have paid for Skyrim game? ... good for him.
But he HAD NOT paid for YOUR or ANYONE mod, he could comment as long as he wish about Skyrim but when talking about your mods, your acts and your decisions, he's pure and simple hypocrite.

Again, if you paid for Skyrim

fru1tcak3s wrote: > charging for the Creation Kit

Open source creation kit :P

wulfharth wrote: I don't need to have good PR with people who think they deserve everything for free. That's a pretty crappy customer base to build.

I'm moving on to another mod community. This one will be dead fairly soon. Be well all. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Brasscatcher wrote: Well...bye! :)

thefinn wrote: Yeah tend to agree, I think TB/Dark0ne/Brumbek say it best here:

If you're just downloading and not contributing, not a forum user, not even hitting the endorse button - then who cares what your opinion is? It's only going to be the usual kinds of self-serving entitled crap that we see everywhere else on the net.

@wulfharth How crappy the customer base is is irrelevant. You want their money and you want to make a profit. That's all a business needs to know. If your customers are becoming a huge bother, you can deny them services, but you need to do so as politely as possible. The moment you start bickering and being aggressive to your customers, you've lost the game. Look at Valve and Bethesda's responses for god's sake. You'll get a feel of what a professional response should be like.

Well, have fun and good luck then. Edited May 2, 2015 by np11

[DCWillis]

In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714 are all replies on the same post.

freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.

WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*

cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.

freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.

This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.

@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.

The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.

Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.

This is not over yet.

[thefinn]

In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009 are all replies on the same post.

freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.

WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*

cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.

freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.

This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.

@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.

DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.

Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.

This is not over yet.

Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.

If you've moved on - fine, move on.

[Eugen0001]

well if Tes6 and/or fallout4 starts with payed mods outright ill be fully ok with it .

 

in my opinion it was a poor idea to tag this on a allready established comunity, and we all seen waht happend.

[np11]

In response to post #24882379. #24883244, #24885319, #24885764 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: The most reasonable movement was made by Epic.

Releasing to the public use, FREE of charge their last GAME ENGINE opened the gates for a true cooperation between a major company and the world of gamers ( and I mean by that the modders and the customers).
Just take a look here:

https://www.unrealengine.com/what-is-unreal-engine-4

And another smart choice from Epic:

"The 5% royalty starts after the first $3,000 of revenue per product per quarter. Pay no royalty for film projects, contracting and consulting projects such as architecture, simulation and visualization".

The best choice for Bethesda will be to follow this trend and find a way to make it appealing for both parts, creators and users.

Maybe this is the real issue here, for the first time in the gaming industry, the enormous mass of modders of all kind could benefit from their work under the quality control of a big company.
People who teach others how to do, how to act and how to think will remain with the result of newbies modders for free.

Maybe the real problem here on Nexus "community " is the fact that the bulk of USERS is facing the real possibility that they will remain without they precious and easy got free mods, because they failed to show the appreciation to those who provided them for FREE so many YEARS mods.

False arguments like " get a job if you want money" or " I buyed Skyrim and I have all the rights to comment about anything created with their content" just succeeded to convince many modders about the true face of the "community" they provided for so many years.

IF YOU PAID for Skyrim you are entitled to have demands ONLY to Skyrim game... period, because you paid for Bethesda game only NOT for XXX mod created by YYY modder.
IF YOU DOWNLOADED FOR FREE THOUSANDS OF MODS... you are just a user, so you can't have DEMANDS related to mods, mod creation or modders behaviour.
IF YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR A MOD, fine, you are not even a POTENTIAL customer, so you have less rights to make DEMANDS.

Other than that you could express your hate, your intolerance, your arrogance, your discontempt, your hypocrisy, you could throw your human garbage on other heads... but don't expect mercy.

It's called FREEDOM of SPEECH, FREEDOM of OPINION and FREEDOM of ACT... something you, the bulk of the Nexus "community" denied this days to MODDERS community.
Bless you!

jbvertexx wrote: What you say is only partially true. The Creation Kit was created, not as a "gift" but as a way to add value to the game. Skyrim would not have sold half of what it did if it were not for the open ability to mod the game and the modding community. So modding was very much part of the business model in selling the game, and likewise, part of what people bought when they bought the product was the expectation of using mods.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree that there should be no expectation that modders should just do stuff for free. They do, and the fact that they do is pretty awesome, but people mod as a hobby. If someone decides to take that hobby to the next level, then that is his or her complete prerogative and should be respected. There was such an uprising of "entitlement" mentality and hate toward the modders that participated that was just disgusting to behold.

Like it or not, monetized modding is coming. Just like other industries, if implemented correctly, it is going to be a way that empowers talented content creators to freelance, do what they love, and potentially rely less on a corporate job. Valve and Bethesda just royally screwed up this implementation.

np11 wrote: No business sense whatsoever. EVERYONE is a potential customer. If people don't want to pay for something, convince them that your product is worth the asking price or allow price negotiation. Being aggressive for ANY reason against them is a surefire way to make them not pay you for anything. Ever. DO NOT alienate people, or in your next endeavor, people will STILL remember how you treated them. L2Business, people, seriously, you can even look at Valve and Bethesda's blog posts on the paid mod issue. They fumbled but they know how to do business when the going gets rough. Some of you people are plain amateurs.

CaladanAnduril wrote: They are not POTENTIAL customers those who publicly refused to PAY for ANY kind of mod.
If you want to see aggression, just read most of the posts here... If Wulfharth made a statement what he received?!

" Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours"... patronising discontempt.

That is irrelevant. They refused NOW (for whatever reason). As long as you're not burning bridges, there's potential to profit from them. If people troll you and you drop to their level, you basically lost the game, you have instant bad PR plus these people will keep generating a now better-founded bad PR for you. You have the right to refuse service to these people, but you have to be polite about it, that's standard business practice, unless the customer practically tries to wreck your store with a sledgehammer or sth, in which case you call security and the police, and that's it. If you're going to turn your hobby into a business, learn to act like you're in business.

[Terramaris]

In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009, #24889094 are all replies on the same post.

freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.

When will it end? Are we just in a cycle or arguing?

WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*

cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.

freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.

This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.

@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.

DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.

Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.

This is not over yet.

thefinn wrote: Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.

If you've moved on - fine, move on.

Point is, we need everyone to move on. If just one or two people move on, then that is nothing. Community is still tearing itself apart over this fiasco with no end in sight. What is the end goal? What will stop the cycle? The community doesn't win until we put down out pitchforks.

[thefinn]

In response to post #24882379. #24883244, #24885319, #24885764, #24889189 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: The most reasonable movement was made by Epic.

Releasing to the public use, FREE of charge their last GAME ENGINE opened the gates for a true cooperation between a major company and the world of gamers ( and I mean by that the modders and the customers).
Just take a look here:

https://www.unrealengine.com/what-is-unreal-engine-4

And another smart choice from Epic:

"The 5% royalty starts after the first $3,000 of revenue per product per quarter. Pay no royalty for film projects, contracting and consulting projects such as architecture, simulation and visualization".

The best choice for Bethesda will be to follow this trend and find a way to make it appealing for both parts, creators and users.

Maybe this is the real issue here, for the first time in the gaming industry, the enormous mass of modders of all kind could benefit from their work under the quality control of a big company.
People who teach others how to do, how to act and how to think will remain with the result of newbies modders for free.

Maybe the real problem here on Nexus "community " is the fact that the bulk of USERS is facing the real possibility that they will remain without they precious and easy got free mods, because they failed to show the appreciation to those who provided them for FREE so many YEARS mods.

False arguments like " get a job if you want money" or " I buyed Skyrim and I have all the rights to comment about anything created with their content" just succeeded to convince many modders about the true face of the "community" they provided for so many years.

IF YOU PAID for Skyrim you are entitled to have demands ONLY to Skyrim game... period, because you paid for Bethesda game only NOT for XXX mod created by YYY modder.
IF YOU DOWNLOADED FOR FREE THOUSANDS OF MODS... you are just a user, so you can't have DEMANDS related to mods, mod creation or modders behaviour.
IF YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR A MOD, fine, you are not even a POTENTIAL customer, so you have less rights to make DEMANDS.

Other than that you could express your hate, your intolerance, your arrogance, your discontempt, your hypocrisy, you could throw your human garbage on other heads... but don't expect mercy.

It's called FREEDOM of SPEECH, FREEDOM of OPINION and FREEDOM of ACT... something you, the bulk of the Nexus "community" denied this days to MODDERS community.
Bless you!

jbvertexx wrote: What you say is only partially true. The Creation Kit was created, not as a "gift" but as a way to add value to the game. Skyrim would not have sold half of what it did if it were not for the open ability to mod the game and the modding community. So modding was very much part of the business model in selling the game, and likewise, part of what people bought when they bought the product was the expectation of using mods.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree that there should be no expectation that modders should just do stuff for free. They do, and the fact that they do is pretty awesome, but people mod as a hobby. If someone decides to take that hobby to the next level, then that is his or her complete prerogative and should be respected. There was such an uprising of "entitlement" mentality and hate toward the modders that participated that was just disgusting to behold.

Like it or not, monetized modding is coming. Just like other industries, if implemented correctly, it is going to be a way that empowers talented content creators to freelance, do what they love, and potentially rely less on a corporate job. Valve and Bethesda just royally screwed up this implementation.

np11 wrote: No business sense whatsoever. EVERYONE is a potential customer. If people don't want to pay for something, convince them that your product is worth the asking price or allow price negotiation. Being aggressive for ANY reason against them is a surefire way to make them not pay you for anything. Ever. DO NOT alienate people, or in your next endeavor, people will STILL remember how you treated them. L2Business, people, seriously, you can even look at Valve and Bethesda's blog posts on the paid mod issue. They fumbled but they know how to do business when the going gets rough. Some of you people are plain amateurs.

CaladanAnduril wrote: They are not POTENTIAL customers those who publicly refused to PAY for ANY kind of mod.
If you want to see aggression, just read most of the posts here... If Wulfharth made a statement what he received?!

" Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours"... patronising discontempt.

np11 wrote: That is irrelevant. They refused NOW (for whatever reason). As long as you're not burning bridges, there's potential to profit from them. If people troll you and you drop to their level, you basically lost the game, you have instant bad PR plus these people will keep generating a now better-founded bad PR for you. You have the right to refuse service to these people, but you have to be polite about it, that's standard business practice, unless the customer practically tries to wreck your store with a sledgehammer or sth, in which case you call security and the police, and that's it. If you're going to turn your hobby into a business, learn to act like you're in business.

Nice!

*Uninstalls Unity*

*Installs Unreal 4*