Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[DCWillis]

In response to post #24893994. #24894334 is also a reply to the same post.

fearalice wrote: Not to undermine the big news post made by someone with authority/power (sorry, but i am not social enough on this site to know who ".Dark0ne" is, nor any other names that have been tossed around), but when an issue like this comes up that many people feel strongly about it's not going to immediately quiet down with a "Okay everyone, it's done lets move on". Some are still not happy with the aftermath. Some are still concerned with "Okay, steam and bethesda backed off for now, but what's next?". It's basically like ACTA and all of it's incarnations. This one failed, now they'll try again, and again, and again until the public outcry isn't strong enough for them to have to retract it again and then bam, it's basically written in stone from that point on.

For one, i love mods. They make good games great, and incomplete/broken games playable. But the best part is they are free. Bethesda put out a largely flawed game missing tons and with plenty to be fixed. This is evidenced by the existence of the unofficial skyrim patch, dawnguard patch, hearthfire patch... See a trend? Even their DLC has glaring issues they didn't even bother to fix. So give it ten years, when paid modding is the norm and we have lazy, greedy developers who put out just enough to be modded then work on dlc. Then we have to spend another 60 dollars through mods to get the game to how it should be. All the while the developers/steam will be seeing profits off of all 120+ dollars it takes to play a game. All it will do is promote piracy further, and i'm pretty sure that's something developers, vendors, and modders who charge for their content do not want.

I'm not even going to get into the flaws of the system, since this post is not about that.

My reason for typing all this up even though it'll likely get burried and read by next to no one is that i feel the ONLY way to show just how much against this we (who are against it anyway) are is to keep voicing it. If Steam's most recent attempt to see how much further into our wallets they can dig is met with massive resistance that just dies out as soon as it's redacted temporarily, it's just going to be that much faster that the next attempt comes around.

I know there are a lot who do disagree with this view point, and that's okay. But to just say "Okay guys, lets move on" and to just drop it would be a mistake, sorry for disagreeing with the OP on this.

-Edited to remove obnoxious smiley

WightMage wrote: FYI: Dark0ne, also known as "Robin Scott," is the founder and owner of the Nexus. (his name is at the bottom)

Good points though.

We already have game producers ripping content from the games so they can sell it as dlc material. Angry Joe points this out often on his youtube videos. So they have already turned a $60 game into $75 - $100 and paid mods just makes it worse.

I was so fired up by the upcoming E3 that I have a sticky note on the edge of my screen to insure I did not miss it. Not that hyped anymore and if TES6 is announced I will not buy it straight away. The game will be mediocre without mods and if they make them paid mods, they can keep the game.

[Fowldragon]

In response to post #24893994. #24894334, #24895424 are all replies on the same post.

fearalice wrote: Not to undermine the big news post made by someone with authority/power (sorry, but i am not social enough on this site to know who ".Dark0ne" is, nor any other names that have been tossed around), but when an issue like this comes up that many people feel strongly about it's not going to immediately quiet down with a "Okay everyone, it's done lets move on". Some are still not happy with the aftermath. Some are still concerned with "Okay, steam and bethesda backed off for now, but what's next?". It's basically like ACTA and all of it's incarnations. This one failed, now they'll try again, and again, and again until the public outcry isn't strong enough for them to have to retract it again and then bam, it's basically written in stone from that point on.

For one, i love mods. They make good games great, and incomplete/broken games playable. But the best part is they are free. Bethesda put out a largely flawed game missing tons and with plenty to be fixed. This is evidenced by the existence of the unofficial skyrim patch, dawnguard patch, hearthfire patch... See a trend? Even their DLC has glaring issues they didn't even bother to fix. So give it ten years, when paid modding is the norm and we have lazy, greedy developers who put out just enough to be modded then work on dlc. Then we have to spend another 60 dollars through mods to get the game to how it should be. All the while the developers/steam will be seeing profits off of all 120+ dollars it takes to play a game. All it will do is promote piracy further, and i'm pretty sure that's something developers, vendors, and modders who charge for their content do not want.

I'm not even going to get into the flaws of the system, since this post is not about that.

My reason for typing all this up even though it'll likely get burried and read by next to no one is that i feel the ONLY way to show just how much against this we (who are against it anyway) are is to keep voicing it. If Steam's most recent attempt to see how much further into our wallets they can dig is met with massive resistance that just dies out as soon as it's redacted temporarily, it's just going to be that much faster that the next attempt comes around.

I know there are a lot who do disagree with this view point, and that's okay. But to just say "Okay guys, lets move on" and to just drop it would be a mistake, sorry for disagreeing with the OP on this.

-Edited to remove obnoxious smiley

WightMage wrote: FYI: Dark0ne, also known as "Robin Scott," is the founder and owner of the Nexus. (his name is at the bottom)

Good points though.

DCWillis wrote: We already have game producers ripping content from the games so they can sell it as dlc material. Angry Joe points this out often on his youtube videos. So they have already turned a $60 game into $75 - $100 and paid mods just makes it worse.

I was so fired up by the upcoming E3 that I have a sticky note on the edge of my screen to insure I did not miss it. Not that hyped anymore and if TES6 is announced I will not buy it straight away. The game will be mediocre without mods and if they make them paid mods, they can keep the game.

If you look at the 3 preceeding blog pieces and take those comments into account, There has been a significant exchange of opinion position and unintended emoticons...

Your post will sit here for a LONG time with a large number of people reading it...Nobody has abandoned their positions...everyone though is moving on...

[DCWillis]

In response to post #24887504. #24889644, #24889694 are all replies on the same post.

Farvahar wrote: I donated recently through the donate button and it was a real hassle (much like renewing my subscription). Would I want to do that for each and every mod author I want to support (could be hundreds).

No.

Also, I don't like being limited to buying them a subscription to the Nexus, which is a minimum of a couple dollars. Some mods deserve a dollar or 2 (the core game can be had for 5). Most mods deserve a few cents (multiplied by hundreds of thousands of users).

This is the ideal system:

1) A wallet system, like Steam has
2) The ability to set the amount you want to donate in cash to the nearest cent
3) the ability to donate to multiple mods at once: a "donate all" button or some such
It would have been nice for the players in this (Valve, Bethesda, and Nexus, and a couple of prominent free modder types) to sit down together and hash out a suitable system that allows people to receive donations in lieu of formal payment.

The system we have now is not acceptable and "drawing a line under it" invites further turmoil.

DCWillis wrote: This should be simple. Add an area where the Creator can link a paypal donate button on the mod page.

freedom613 wrote: @DC
There already is? Unless you are referring to Workshop.

I have donated to mod makers on Nexus. There is not a button on the mod page that goes directly to the creators paypal. It takes a few more steps then that and probably discourages some people.

[Pevey]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

I need you cool...

...Are you cool?


I'm cool."



-Reservoir Dogs-

Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement. Edited May 2, 2015 by LP1

[hafizlordfeast]

Considering that you, Mr. Dark0ne or Mr. Robin Scott (If I got the right guy), read the comments, may I suggest something about the endorsements? Considering that the Nexus community seems to prioritize endorsement and it will considered disrespectful or unhelpful for someone to use the mod but not recommend it enough, by not press the endorsement button. So, something probably need to do about this problem.

 

I will say that it's been a long time since I ever download mods (Considering that my computer broke, and all I do is tracking mods until I buy a new great computer), but I do remember that it will take one hour for the Nexus to allow you to endorse. Because it will probably be a hassle after downloading multiple mods at one time, which make me forget to endorse the mods that I used. Other issue is my internet is so slow, it will annoy me to even bother, browsing each mod page again to endorse.

 

My suggestion is this, one hour after the mod download is done, when visiting the Nexus again after that, there should be a pop-up message and listed the mods that you have downloaded and ask if you want to endorse them or not. Sort of like checking list, which makes it much better. Should also make the "Cancel" button if the mod doesn't deserve the endorsement.

 

I don't know this kind of request have been done before, and I'm sorry for probably being rude to tell someone to make something on this web page that myself, have no contribution to it whatsoever. But people do care about endorsement and recommendation, both mod users and mod makers alike. Just to let you know.

Edited May 2, 2015 by hafizlordfeast

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

 

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

 

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

 

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

 

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

 

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.

Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.

Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?

Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

 

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

 

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

 

My final post:

 

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

 

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

 

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

 

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

 

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

 

Thanks for reading.

 

SNB

 

 

Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

 

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

 

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

 

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

 

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

 

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

 

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

 

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

 

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

 

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

 

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

 

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

 

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

 

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

 

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

 

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be

2) play testing

3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it

4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first

5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

 

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

 

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

 

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

 

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1

"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

 

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

 

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

 

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

 

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

 

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

 

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

 

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

 

I need you cool...

 

...Are you cool?

 

 

I'm cool."

 

 

 

-Reservoir Dogs-

Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement.

 

Not everyone has the choice to buy or not as many people struggle to get by or have to beg and hope for food just to keep alive. Voting with dollars is a very totalitarian way of seeing things, but we are all entitled to our opinions and views. I for one would like to share the future with others as opposed to slapping it in a happy meal and then trying to sell it with a side of fries for a piece of paper that has no real value outside of a corrupt banking system.

 

Purely my feelings on things. Thanks.

[Pevey]

In response to post #24896554.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

 

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

I need you cool...

...Are you cool?


I'm cool."



-Reservoir Dogs-

Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement.

 

Not everyone has the choice to buy or not as many people struggle to get by or have to beg and hope for food just to keep alive. Voting with dollars is a very totalitarian way of seeing things, but we are all entitled to our opinions and views. I for one would like to share the future with others as opposed to slapping it in a happy meal and then trying to sell it with a side of fries for a piece of paper that has no real value outside of a corrupt banking system.

 

Purely my feelings on things. Thanks.

This same reasoning could easily support the opposite view: some mod authors are not well off at all. Some don't have the choice to work for hours on something for free, but would gladly work for hours with the option to sell their work. Lack of resources can affect both sides. We already saw some modders come out of retirement at the prospect of being paid. That's just economic reality, as you describe above. Food costs money. Again, it's about choice. Edited May 2, 2015 by LP1

[aegiltheugly]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184, #24895989 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

I need you cool...

...Are you cool?


I'm cool."



-Reservoir Dogs-

LP1 wrote: Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement.

LP1 - I have know idea who you are but PLEASE, let me know what all your mods are so I can be sure I never insult you by downloading one.

[Tyerial12]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184, #24895989, #24896889 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

I need you cool...

...Are you cool?


I'm cool."



-Reservoir Dogs-

LP1 wrote: Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement.

aegiltheugly wrote: LP1 - I have know idea who you are but PLEASE, let me know what all your mods are so I can be sure I never insult you by downloading one.

@lp1 its authors like you that give a bad name to other good mod authors. thinking your better than someone who cant mod this is just bs lol.. Mod authors would make way less money without the users so if we not important dont bother making paid mods cause there be no USERS to buy them.... Skyrim can get along just fine without mods but it cant without players. So stop your self rightousness for once in your life. you are one person i wouldnt mind see leaving.

To other mod authors im sorry if i posted or said anything harmfull. i do believe you guys should make money. im just hoping not all the great mods go pay to have because that will be the end of free mods sites sooner or later asall the good mods will behind paywalls and soon even that will die as alot of people will just be done with skyrim as you noticed by the petition to free the mods.. Thats more people that that against so my thoughts on that.

@aegilitheugly haha i wanna know aswell so if im using them i remove them for good.. his name is now written down so i never download or pay for a mod from him-her-it Edited May 2, 2015 by Tyerial12

[hafizlordfeast]

In response to post #24896554. #24896779, #24897259, #24897469 are all replies on the same post.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

 

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

I need you cool...

...Are you cool?


I'm cool."



-Reservoir Dogs-

Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement.

 

Not everyone has the choice to buy or not as many people struggle to get by or have to beg and hope for food just to keep alive. Voting with dollars is a very totalitarian way of seeing things, but we are all entitled to our opinions and views. I for one would like to share the future with others as opposed to slapping it in a happy meal and then trying to sell it with a side of fries for a piece of paper that has no real value outside of a corrupt banking system.

 

Purely my feelings on things. Thanks.

LP1 wrote: This same reasoning could easily support the opposite view: some mod authors are not well off at all. Some don't have the choice to work for hours on something for free, but would gladly work for hours with the option to sell their work. Lack of resources can affect both sides. We already saw some modders come out of retirement at the prospect of being paid. That's just economic reality, as you describe above. Food costs money. Again, it's about choice.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I totally agree which is why the argument I have been interested in is not the choice of whether modders can mod for money or for fun but that this should always be a choice. The fear among many is the "pay to mod" scheme that was tested.

If you mod for money then you should at least be shown the respect and protection from the people you are supposedly working for, Beth.

I totally support what you do and I certainly don't want dedicated. artistic people like you to get shafted.

momuse88 wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by previous mods before Skyrim didn't make money. What about CS: GO? Stanley Parable? Goat Simulator? G-Mod? The idea of paying for mods is certainly now new. Many, what were once mod authors, are now running respectable businesses because they had the opportunity to turn their talents into a business.

Agreed, mods have exist for a long time before Skyrim, and they never ask for money because they want to share the fun on the things that they've made, and people are glad to have it. Plus, great mod will make you praise the modders, maybe not openly as we wanted, when comparing to trolls who just post ungrateful stuffs or having pleasures creating blood pressure to the mod makers.

If modders, especially now, charge mods for money, no one will appreciate what you've done and they probably going to complain much more than before. Whether the mod is broken, conflicted, unsatisfactory and other negative statement. Pay for mods and the modders will get quadruple the criticism and trolling. What's the point to pay something that could potentially broke the game anyway?

This isn't early access where you get a whole new game, despite how buggy and unplayable the game is. Mods are implementation to the game, and shouldn't even compare to offical DLC no matter how crap it is. Mods are volatile and offical DLC is the official addon that are considered the essential implementation, and no matter how good SkyUI is, you can never be to sure when you pay something that broke your game.

I will state this again, if modders want to make profits by making mods, they better off working with game companies, like Bethesda, because they need to get a big slap to the face for making a buggy mess and non-friendly PC implementation, and expecting people to give them money for something they don't even fix or add in the first place. Pay for SkyUI? WTF!?

Forgot to also state this, what about past modders who also work hard enough and doesn't expect no payment? It's not fair now to ask for people's money when we barely hear past modders asking to get profits. They don't get the clear communications with community or even get dealings from companies like Bethesda or Steam to put price tags on their mods. I know modders work hard, so does everyone else, but if you want profits, do it right and do it the way of not pissing people off.
Edited May 2, 2015 by hafizlordfeast