So Windows 10 is actually spyware.

[ginnyfizz]

Oh it should be OK then as my laptopamabob is now nearly three years old so whilst still a brute (can run Witcher 3 and FO4 on Ultra) it is not the latest. Believe the processor is an i7 Haswell IIRC, card is an AMD Radeon HD8970M.

[PillMonster]

 

I certainly hope they don't force Win 10 on us. I have just had my desktop rebuilt and after some probs with the AMD video drivers everything is fine with Win 10. But when I upgraded my gaming laptop it was a disaster, my laptop keyboard stopped working and I had to revert back. I refuse to have an expensive machine crippled by Mikeysoft.

It depends on what CPU the system has - if it has Skylake, you get Windows 10, full stop (because supposedly Skylake is "too advanced" to run Windows 7 or 8.1 - all of the machines running it now are just a fantasy and don't/can't exist (seriously that's essentially what they're claiming: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/01/15/windows-10-embracing-silicon-innovation/ (for the less technical, more or less 100% of this article ranges between blatant FUD and flat out bald-faced lies))). If it has Broadwell (or earlier) you don't (because despite being faster and more power efficient (especially when it comes to graphics), Broadwell is apparently "massively outdated" and therefore "compatible" with the equally "massively outdated" Windows 7 and 8.1).

 

AMD will be forced up with Bristol Ridge (Excavator).

 

Anything later than Skylake/Bristol Ridge will not be allowed to support Windows 7 or 8.1 (because again, "they are too advanced to be compatible"), which will therefore likely include AMD's yet-to-be-released K12/Zen platform (the FX replacement), and (per Microsoft) Intel's upcoming Kaby Lake platform.

 

 

That only applies to Microsoft's OEM partners. eg., Dell, HP etc.

If you have a PC at home with an AMD Piledriver or similar on Windows 7 you aren't going to be forced u to upgrade... That wouldn't be possible anyway even if MS wanted to.

Likewise your current hardware won't suddenly stop working although MS would like end users to believe that.

When MS talk about "support:" they really mean security updates which tbh aren't that important unless you're an enterprise or OEM customer. [:)]

PS: the windowsblog site will rot your brain.... [:P] It's 100% marketing drivel as you said. lol

Edited April 19, 2016 by PillMonster

[obobski]

 

That only applies to Microsoft's OEM partners. eg., Dell, HP etc.

If you have a PC at home with an AMD Piledriver or similar on Windows 7 you aren't going to be forced u to upgrade... That wouldn't be possible anyway even if MS wanted to.

Likewise your current hardware won't suddenly stop working although MS would like end users to believe that.

When MS talk about "support:" they really mean security updates which tbh aren't that important unless you're an enterprise or OEM customer. []

PS: the windowsblog site will rot your brain.... [:P] It's 100% marketing drivel as you said. lol

 

 

They've openly said they will be forcing (as in, "would you like to upgrade now or now?") Windows 10 on Skylake and Bristol Ridge (which is a lot newer than Piledriver) in early 2017, and anything later than that (e.g. Kaby Lake) will never have drivers for anything but Windows 10 (and that doesn't matter if you're buying the machine from Dell or building it yourself).

 

As far as "hardware suddenly stop working" - no, it won't, but they will dump all support, which is not an unimportant consideration - security updates are really quite important these days (yes, I know, there's lots of non-essential, unimportant, and sometimes bizarre stuff that is offered on Windows Update, but security updates are not among them). They will also be, as they've said, forcing a non-opt-out update on Skylake/Bristol Ridge starting in 2017 (as in, they give you and you take); anything "newer" will never touch Windows 7 or 8.1, and thru WGA they can absolutely lock your machine until you play by their rules (or nerf their software) - Xbox has worked like this for years: don't have the latest update? you don't get to log-in and can't play any games or run any apps.

 

Grand scheme of things: I get that eventually hardware support for a given OS will end - it happens with OS X, it happens with Linux, it happens with Windows, but usually its based on a lack of an installed user-base that makes further development non-profitable (e.g. look at how long it took Intel to officially discontinue support for Windows 98, or how long Apple actually supported PowerPC), but in this case its just an artificially imposed lock-out in typical Redmond FUD fashion to try and hawk their latest OS. If Windows 10 weren't such a gaping security hole and massive nest of incompatibility, I don't think there'd be any real complaints. In theory they will eventually fix the incompatibility (and/or all of the unsupported junk will just drop out of favor), but they've made no motions whatsoever about addressing the security and privacy concerns.

[PillMonster]

 

 

That only applies to Microsoft's OEM partners. eg., Dell, HP etc.

If you have a PC at home with an AMD Piledriver or similar on Windows 7 you aren't going to be forced u to upgrade... That wouldn't be possible anyway even if MS wanted to.

Likewise your current hardware won't suddenly stop working although MS would like end users to believe that.

When MS talk about "support:" they really mean security updates which tbh aren't that important unless you're an enterprise or OEM customer. []

PS: the windowsblog site will rot your brain.... [:P] It's 100% marketing drivel as you said. lol

 

 

They've openly said they will be forcing (as in, "would you like to upgrade now or now?") Windows 10 on Skylake and Bristol Ridge (which is a lot newer than Piledriver) in early 2017, and anything later than that (e.g. Kaby Lake) will never have drivers for anything but Windows 10 (and that doesn't matter if you're buying the machine from Dell or building it yourself).

 

As far as "hardware suddenly stop working" - no, it won't, but they will dump all support, which is not an unimportant consideration - security updates are really quite important these days (yes, I know, there's lots of non-essential, unimportant, and sometimes bizarre stuff that is offered on Windows Update, but security updates are not among them). They will also be, as they've said, forcing a non-opt-out update on Skylake/Bristol Ridge starting in 2017 (as in, they give you and you take); anything "newer" will never touch Windows 7 or 8.1, and thru WGA they can absolutely lock your machine until you play by their rules (or nerf their software) - Xbox has worked like this for years: don't have the latest update? you don't get to log-in and can't play any games or run any apps.

 

Grand scheme of things: I get that eventually hardware support for a given OS will end - it happens with OS X, it happens with Linux, it happens with Windows, but usually its based on a lack of an installed user-base that makes further development non-profitable (e.g. look at how long it took Intel to officially discontinue support for Windows 98, or how long Apple actually supported PowerPC), but in this case its just an artificially imposed lock-out in typical Redmond FUD fashion to try and hawk their latest OS. If Windows 10 weren't such a gaping security hole and massive nest of incompatibility, I don't think there'd be any real complaints. In theory they will eventually fix the incompatibility (and/or all of the unsupported junk will just drop out of favor), but they've made no motions whatsoever about addressing the security and privacy concerns.

 

No, it's not like that, what you're saying is alarmist talk....

 

OS imaging and deployment is a daily chore for me, I was involved in beta testing the W10 pre-release also (a waste of time that turned out to be), so I feel I should try clear the air... (I will try). :wink:

 

Firstly Microsoft cannot force anyone to upgrade from an older OS to W10... It's not possible, access to every single computer would be required and even then all a user need to do is reinstall the older OS.

I mean if u got a copy of W7 retail sitting at home how is anyone going to stop u installing it on your machine...?

 

The only way MS can "force" W7 is by preventing OEM's from selling systems with anything but W10. As far as driver support Intel chipsets as old as the 6 series have official support.

The GWX nag screen is a s*** move I agree, but it can be removed, it was installed via Windows update, and it can be uninstall the same way.

If you mean forced by way of railroading users who don't know any better into thinking they have no choice, then I would agree with you. Yes the way MS are going about it borders on unethical..

 

 

 

They will also be, as they've said, forcing a non-opt-out update on Skylake/Bristol Ridge starting in 2017 (as in, they give you and you take); anything "newer" will never touch Windows 7 or 8.1, and thru WGA they can absolutely lock your machine until you play by their rules (or nerf their software) - Xbox has worked like this for years: don't have the latest update? you don't get to log-in and can't play any games or run any apps.

 

Secondly this is statement is untrue, bordering on nonsense.

 

 

WGA is Windows Genuine Advantage which was a security check used to detect pirated copies of Windows XP, it has nothing to do with W10, least of all locking it down.

The worst damage it could lay claim to was a "counterfeit" nag screen. It cannot "lockdown an OS" You're prob thinking of Windows Activation Technologies, something else altogether.

 

How is MS will stop some new hardware in 2yrs running on W7, an OS which is 7 years old. How could that be done? Skylake is a CPU with new instruction set that's what they're referring to.

If hardware developers want to release a beta driver for W7 and W8 to run some new fangled hardware, they will. W7 has no kernel driver restrictions implemented...but W10 does.

Any kernel drivers must be signed and certified in W10 or they will not install. This was not the case previously.

 

And as far as new hardware support for W7 goes, new hardware will run on W7 & W8 just fine, It's W10 which won't run on old hardware.

Specifically support for W10 depends on the UEFI specifications of the motherboard, not the CPU.

OEM platforms must have full compatibility with EFI boot partitions and this boils down to the MS big brother/control freak thing because of secure boot and a few other things which give MS "the power".

 

So again, what you say applies only to OEM or those with OEM /home versions of W10.

 

W7 has official support until at least 2020, chipsets as old as the Intel 6/7 series and AMD SB8xx are officially OK to run W10.

Really u should not take the windowsblogs as scripture....noone should. :smile:

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by PillMonster

[obobski]

You're going to have to forgive my somewhat defensive response, but here's why you're getting "both barrels" - since the total nightmare that Windows 10 is has started to come to light (e.g. the Forbes series on it), I've noticed an increasing number of (what I can only assume to be) paid shills that appear out of nowhere on forums and attempt to attack anything that speaks ill of Windows 10, usually following a narrative along the lines of -

 

"I work in OS development/deployment/design/etc and was involved in the Windows 10 alpha/beta/design/etc process and am here to set the record straight..." and then proceed to astroturf for Windows 10, while making direct personal attacks at whoever originally shared/posted negative comments about Windows 10. It's a very deliberate and very consistent pattern that I've noticed over the last few months, and I was honestly wondering how long it would take for such a poster to appear here.

 

You're a new member with very few posts (but not 1 or 2) and your post is dangerously close to (but not entirely in line with) that narrative construction, so hopefully you can understand my skepticism (if you're an honest person that is; if you're a shill I expect nothing less than a full broadside of personal attacks and namecalling).

 

 

No, it's not like that, what you're saying is alarmist talk....

 

Except they've already done it. They have (and this has been documented, such as in the Forbes series), covertly downloaded and "pre-loaded" Windows 10 onto many end-user systems without anything resembling consent or "opt-in." Calling me an "alarmist" routes back to "with directed pesronal attacks to attempt to change the nature of the discussion" too.

 

 

 

OS imaging and deployment is a daily chore for me, I was involved in beta testing the W10 pre-release also (a waste of time that turned out to be), so I feel I should try clear the air... (I will try).

 

"I helped to make Windows 10 at the alpha/beta/development stage, I am involved in OS development/deployment/design and am attempting to set the record straight"

 

Please see my skepticism.

 

 

Firstly Microsoft cannot force anyone to upgrade from an older OS to W10... It's not possible, access to every single computer would be required and even then all a user need to do is reinstall the older OS.

I mean if u got a copy of W7 retail sitting at home how is anyone going to stop u installing it on your machine...?

 

 

This isn't true though - they have already been "caught" covertly downloading Windows 10 update files onto end-user systems and offering the "choice" of the upgrade with a "you can do it now or you can do in a few days when you have more time" as opposed to "yes I want this" or "no I don't want this" choice.

 

Once a Windows 7/8 key is "upgraded" to Windows 10 it is deactivated (through WGA) for Windows 7/8 re-install - that was clearly spelled out by Microsoft way back in 2014 when they started talking about free upgrades to Windows 10. Their licencing requirements will not allow you to "double dip" with a key like that. So once the key has been "upgraded" there is no "just re-install the OS."

 

WGA can also prevent the complete installation of whatever retail copy you may posses physical media for, and this is also clearly explained in their EULA.

 

 

The only way MS can "force" W7 is by preventing OEM's from selling systems with anything but W10. As far as driver support Intel chipsets as old as the 6 series have official support.

The GWX nag screen is a s*** move I agree, but it can be removed, it was installed via Windows update, and it can be uninstall the same way.

If you mean forced by way of railroading users who don't know any better into thinking they have no choice, then I would agree with you. Yes the way MS are going about it borders on unethical..

 

Intel and AMD are not going to be releasing Windows 7/8 drivers for anything newer than Skylake/Bristol Ridge - Microsoft has openly said this. So driver support for Windows 7/8 is effectively done with the Intel 9-series and 170-series PCH platforms, and the same for AMD with Bristol Ridge. Again, this is all openly available information from Microsoft.

 

GWX is a pushed update via Windows Update, and disabling the update does not always defeat GWX (this is documented), however not all machines that should (technically) receive GWX do receive it, so its very inconsistent (in general) in how it works (at least in my experience). "Railroading" is a good word, and this is one area where I say your post "borders on but does not fully match" the shill narrative (again, please try to understand my skepticism).

 

 

Secondly this is statement is untrue, bordering on nonsense.

 

 

WGA is Windows Genuine Advantage which was a security check used to detect pirated copies of Windows XP, it has nothing to do with W10, least of all locking it down.

The worst damage it could lay claim to was a "counterfeit" nag screen. It cannot "lockdown an OS" You're prob thinking of Windows Activation Technologies, something else altogether.

 

This is wrong. WGA is not only for Windows XP - it is "Windows Genuine Advantage" and has been implemented since Windows XP (it has been renamed "Windows Activation Technologies" more recently, but they are one in the same; Windows 2000 implements a subset of WGA components through Windows Update). It is not just a "nag screen" - it generates a unique install ID at install time, and every time the machine boots it must pass a "check." It gets a certain number of points it can fail, if it goes over, it prompts a reactivation - if that fails (e.g. you have exceeded your 30-day count, there are multiple activations on the same install ID, etc) then you're calling the 1-800, however if this activation is not pursued it locks the machine after 72 hours until it can be activated. This is clearly explained in the EULA at install-time for all versions of Windows that contain WGA (XP, Vista, 7, 8, and 10).

 

WGA is also spidered into Windows Update, and is part of the mechanism that Microsoft uses to restrict updates for non-genuine and EOL platforms.

 

 

How is MS will stop some new hardware in 2yrs running on W7, an OS which is 7 years old. How could that be done? Skylake is a CPU with new instruction set that's what they're referring to.

If hardware developers want to release a beta driver for W7 and W8 to run some new fangled hardware, they will. W7 has no kernel driver restrictions implemented...but W10 does.

Any kernel drivers must be signed and certified in W10 or they will not install. This was not the case previously.

 

They don't sell Windows 7 anymore for OEMs, which means its unavailable for OEM builders. It is still available through retail and refurbisher channels. They are restricting driver releases for Kaby Lake and above to Windows 10 (and above, ostensibly) and this will likely be implemented through WGA and the signed driver requirement (as you mention). Skylake platforms, after 2017, will not receive updates and may face activation restrictions for Windows 7 and Windows 8. Again, this is all publically released information from Microsoft.

 

Windows 7 64-bit, like all 64-bit versions of Windows, does require signed drivers (unless you run in test mode, like all 64-bit versions of Windows).

 

Everything about "is a new instruction set" is nonsense (on Microsoft's part). Skylake implements AMD64 just like Broadwell and Haswell, and extends it with a few new instructions that Broadwell (and below) lack, however that does not require a new OS to implement.

 

 

And as far as new hardware support for W7 goes, new hardware will run on W7 & W8 just fine, It's W10 which won't run on old hardware.

Specifically support for W10 depends on the UEFI specifications of the motherboard, not the CPU.

OEM platforms must have full compatibility with EFI boot partitions and this boils down to the MS big brother/control freak thing because of secure boot and a few other things which give MS "the power".

 

Windows 7 and 8 will not run on Kaby Lake and above, or AMD's equivalent (I would guess this means Zen but who knows what AMD is doing these days); Microsoft has openly said this. Windows 7 and 8 running on Skylake and Bristol Ridge will be pushed into Windows 10 in 2017 (support for Windows 10 on Skylake and Bristol Ridge will end in 2017).

 

 

 

W7 has official support until at least 2020, chipsets as old as the Intel 6/7 series and AMD SB8xx are officially OK to run W10.

 

Windows 7 has official extended support until 2020, and Windows 8.1 to 2023, except on Skylake and Bristol Ridge, wherein official extended support ends in 2017. As Microsoft has already stated in their revised Windows Lifecycle policy update from a few months ago.

 

Given this, the weasel word "at least" seems inapplicable here - Microsoft is going full court press on shoving Windows 10 down everyone's throats whether or not they want it, and the odds of Windows 7 (or 8.1) getting extended support beyond 2020 (e.g. multiple extensions as Windows XP saw) is unlikely. There may be enterprise users who negotiate individual LTS contracts (like some have done with XP), but those patches and that support is not made publicly available.

 

Now yes, technically you can still run Windows XP on your somewhat older machine, but following its EOL many developers have abandoned it, and there are massive security holes (especially with respect to web browsers) that have begun to emerge as a result. Arguably, Microsoft is using the never-ending cavalcade of malware that Windows attracts as a platform as a stick to keep people moving "onwards and upwards" and offering "Free upgrades" as a carrot to further entice customers. Windows 7 will very quickly fall in line here, it seems, and by kicking all of the new hardware off the table years ahead of the original EOL they further cement that - by 2020 Windows 7 will be so behind the curve since the "latest and greatest" machines that can run it are going to be Broadwell and Haswell based. If Windows 10 didn't leak like a sieve and didn't have all of the teething problems that every new version of Windows goes through for 1-3 years, this wouldn't be so much to complain about, but that doesn't reflect reality (and honestly, I'd tolerate the teething problems if that was all it was - even Vista eventually saw redemption and can function as a fairly nice platform these days).

 

I'm not being an "alarmist" or anything of the sort - this is all publicly available information, most of it straight up from Microsoft. They're not hiding what they're doing here - they're being very loud and deliberate about it, and its generated a lot of negative press (which hasn't done much to change their course of action, except perhaps catalyze the occurrence of the "Microsoft shill" on tech boards).

 

Apologies in advice if you're a sincere tech geek.