Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[43deadwood]

I've made a few modest donations to Mod authors but find it difficult to keep track of them. Even though I keep the PayPal receipts the name of the payee often differs from that of the mod author. Would it be possible to add something like a D button beside mods where the donation button has been pressed, much like endorsing? Also what is the etiquette about donation amounts? It's like tipping in restaurants - what is reasonable? Most of my donations have been around $5 - but in a previous comment someone pointed out that even 500 one dollar donations does make a fair amount. Would I be better donating one dollar to five authors? I'd be interested in the thoughts of others.

I've tried to correct the post - I mean D, not 'D' !

Edited September 10, 2015 by 43deadwood

[macintroll]

In response to post #28555414. #28558194, #28559089, #28560709, #28561369, #28564614, #28564899, #28565409, #28566309, #28566554, #28567089, #28568234, #28570559, #28573034, #28579039, #28579524, #28580029, #28580564, #28580734 are all replies on the same post.

Psijonica wrote: *****************SOLVED****************

The best way to compensate mode authors would be to give the good authors with many a certain amount of downloads a space where they could get some advertising revenue. Essentially they become a partner with you,with no voting or legal rights but they have a square on their page where they can sell an add. This can be set up in a variety of ways where you, the nexus can get advertising to pay more to advertise on popular mod pages and therefore send the mod authors a small percentage of that. The nexus can still have adds on the better spots on the page and not share in that revenue. You can create a sliding scale where the popular mod authors make more of a percentage of their add revenue so it is tied into the amount of page clicks and mod views and also more importantly unique downloads.

Think of it like this Dark0ne: How does the Government guarantee they get their taxes. Here where I live it is called Deduction at Source. The Government makes Companies/Corporations pay their employees taxes by removing the taxes off of their pay-checks. It becomes the Companies responsibility to do this for their employees.

Your mod authors can be thought of as employees. If you really want them to make some money then you need to facilitate that into the function of this website. You wouldn't loose money and you wouldn't have any legal problems. You don't need programmers to solve this, you need accountants.

Have a nice day :)

Edit: I wonder if you would be able to tie it in with Google Adsense and therefore you wouldn't even have any extra work on your end as the Adsense guys would send them their check directly... or you could work directly with Google Adsense and figure out the details.

I think this idea changes the paradigm and solves everything. If you, Dark0ne, truly want mod authors to make some extra cash then this is a way that accomplishes you4r goal and solves the Legal Issues that are preventing you from doing so.

Laast wrote: Nice and fair idea.

My Pure Waters page has more than 3 millions views (just like most of top 50 mods). If it was a youtube video and I was a youtuber, I think I would get a nice amount of money with advertising. Nexus mostly lives because of advertising, so why not share these revenue with modders who generates millions of pages visited and generated click? That's an interesting approach.

AnyOldName3 wrote: The issues I see with this are that people who've paid for supporter membership have done so under the premise of seeing no ads on the nexus ever again. Changing that after they've paid isn't particularly fair (and is probably against a bunch of EU and UK trading laws). However, the payment was taken at a level to cover the Nexus' expenses, but not to reimburse modders for lost ad revenue too, so the price may have to be altered, which means older users will have got a better deal (which is fairer, but still not ideal). I imagine premium membership has a much larger margin, so has room to give some to modders.

People who use adblockers are also a bit of an issue, but the whole site overall copes with that adequately, so it's reasonable to assume ads in mod pages wouldn't fair differently.

Finally, a perfect mod would get fewer page views than a buggy mess, simply because if you're having to come back to troubleshoot that's an extra visit the bug-free mod would have got.

All these mean your solution isn't perfect, but then I'm not sure a perfect solution exists.

Ideally, I'd have Bethesda just charge a little more for the game, and then have some kind of system where they partner with big mod authors like the unofficial patch team, Mike Hancho, and Fore to give them money and support to release their work as part of the main game, with smaller things from other authors that come down to taste being released as free 'DLC', with everything being screened for bugs and incompatibilities by Bethesda. I feel this would remove Bethesda's incentive to release a feature-poor, buggy game and then profit off modders fixing it, would not stop people making a second mod that does the same job as another, would allow proper quality control, and would allow Bethesda to take some kind of cut without it being solely based on the work of others (after all, it was possible under their previous system to use entirely open-source tools like TES5Edit, Blender and Nifskope without ever even running Skyrim or anything Bethesda made and still have them take a cut).

Psijonica wrote: @ Laast

Exactly this! (read Laast's post)

You see Laast, if Dark0ne really wants to support modders with a financial incentive then this is the only way he could do it and have NO legal issues with Bethesda or any other third party programs.

And it doesn't get rid of Dark0ne's income. In fact it enhances it greatly. We need to think outside the box and change the paradigm here. My idea is just that, an idea. So instead of people posting why this can't work and going on about donations and other systems that don't really work (meaning the mod authors don't really gain any reasonable form of income,) why don't people start building on this idea with reason why and how it could work.

When this pay for mods fiasco started I was ripped a new butthole for mentioning ideas like this and for arguing against paying for mods. Which I still stand by my beliefs. This idea sidesteps all that. It solves everything. It is simple. Simplicity at it's finest.

It makes too much sense. It is also the only strategy that I have read that could possibly combat what Bethesda is planning. I created a Think Tank to discuss these ideas and it was very difficult to organize. I planned and organized two Think Tanks and both failed. (Umm... not sure about what happened to the second group as I and a handful of members splintered off to work on our own.) Fortunately the second attempt did give birth to a smaller more cohesive group of educated like minded individuals with the correct business and legal backgrounds to attack these issues and come up with real life SOLUTIONS.

Although I can't speak for the group, I can share this idea because it is my own and one I have had for many years as I predicted this whole mess around 6 years ago. If people here start to really think about this idea and all the possibilities with the current exploration in the future layout of the website, I think we would all agree that the possibilities are ripe for the picking.

gezegond wrote: edit: sorry wrong post.

macintroll wrote: @Psijonica 100% Agree with your approach.(I had a same proposal, during paid modding fiasco discussions)
So far only Nexus CAN make money from mods.. with ads... and a LOT, you can count thousands of $ per month.
even Youtubers can make money reviewing mods.. but not modders (Hahaha)

Nexus Sharing or implementing some ads revenue to the mods that make them gain money seem fair to me, and if it's a new revenue this will not even take any toll on nexus existing gains.

Dark0ne wrote: The inherent problem with this approach is that people have no clue how little money such an ad placement would make them. It would be a below-the-fold ad for starters, that garners less, and you'd be looking at a $0.05-$0.10 CPM, if that. Probably lower if it was with Adsense, and if it's not with Adsense, then I've got to handle the money. One of the main points I raised during the paid modding fiasco is that I don't want to touch ANY donation money. I don't want that responsibility and it hits some serious legal issues that I'd need to pay a lawyer to drum out and address to ensure I'm doing things right.

YouTube ads earn a crap ton of money as they're targeted, they're video ads, and the viewer is forced to watch them before seeing what they actually want to see. That's worth a lot of money. An ad placement on a site is worth no where near that. No where near. I freaking wish it was! But it isn't.

And yes, I would need the programmers to work on the systems to implement this!

If you do the math, the average mod has ~50,000 page views over the history of this site. That's 5 dollars, total, on that CPM, over the course of years. Adsense wouldn't even pay out on that. The highest viewed mod on the site, SkyUI, would have made between $1,187 and $2,374 over 4 years. Sure, nothing to balk at by any stretch, but we're talking about the biggest mod on the site, and the average mod would make much, much, MUCH less.

It's extremely complicated for something that doesn't have a good return and would only benefit the very biggest of the mods on the site, rather than everyone.

macintroll wrote: Thanks for your response Dark0ne !
1) I do not expect Bunch of $ for each mod only with ads, but some money is still better than nothing...good mods will earn more and i find this logical.
What is the "expected return" ??? So far a modder can expect nothing in term of financial gain.

2) When you do your maths you only count 1 page per mod and 1 ads of course, i can see more than 10 pages for each nexus mod... (description, download, comments , gallery etc..)
so you can raise a little your total. ^^

3) implementing this cost money that's for sure, like any dev for the site.
up to you to find it worth or not. Or to take a toll somewhere.

4) Adsense (and some other advertisers) allow direct payments (a simple paypal account is needed), up to the mod author to subscribe or not. So you don't have to manage any ads money.

5) What i find fair in this approach is that NOBODY's pay money to download a mod, the ads pay everything, like here, ads are allowing this site to live. Free mods for all, some $ for modders, the better the mod is the bigger is the revenue.

6) Bethesda will come back on the paid modding, it's just a matter of time, and this day modders will go where they are paid, it's just logic, capitalism perhaps or common sense.

Just my 2 cents.

Toosdey wrote: How is this even remotely fair? Your punishing authors for games that aren't nearly as well known/popular. Just because they made a mod for a game that won't get as many hits doesn't mean they should be essentially blocked out for this.

You essentially devalue the work done for mods to less known games, as if they took less effort.

Sulhir wrote: Personally, I mod the game because some parts of it I got so sick of dealing with and I didn't like the solutions other modders had found... maybe I'm just neurotic.. You couldn't pay me to do it because I have no idea what I'm doing :P

Dark0ne wrote: Unfortunately, the minimum payout threshold for Adsense is $100, and you'll be hard pressed to find a viable ad agency who have a lower payout than that.

This means any mods that don't get over 1,000,000 ad views (or combination of mods belonging to the author) won't get paid. Ever. Money completely down the drain and a wasted inconvenience for users who don't use adblockers to help support the site/mod authors.

Talking of adblockers; around about 50% of Nexus users browse the site with an adblocker. So actually, you'd need about 2,000,000 "page views" across your mods to hit the 1,000,000 ad views necessary to get a pay out from Adsense. And this is at the upper range $0.10 CPM mark.

There are currently 550 file pages on the Nexus that have had over 1,000,000 page views. There are only 214 file pages that have had over 2,000,000 page views. Ergo, only 214 files would have reached the minimum payout threshold for using Adsense. We've done a query on the database and there are currently 391 mod authors who pass this 2,000,000 page view threshold when you add up their total file page views across all their mods.

This is why it's extremely difficult to think providing ad space to mod authors they can sell themselves would be beneficial, when it would only be beneficial to 0.8% of the Nexus's 50,000+ mod authors.

FredNotBob wrote: For the record: 'donation' has a very specific legal definition (it's considered a 'gift', with no expectation that the recipient will provide a service).

Patreon's 'What is Patreon?' section describes their service thus: ' if you pledge $2 per video, and the creator releases 3 videos in February, then your card gets charged a total of $6 that month'. That's considered a 'commercial exploitation' (payment in return for services), which is forbidden under the Skyrim Creation Kit EULA.

That said, using AdSense makes the most...er, sense, since there would be no 'commercial exploitation' in a legal sense. AdSense pays its participants for advertising space, not Skyrim content creation.

Psijonica wrote: @ Dark0ne

Many points you have made have already been discussed to death in my Think Tank. I just scratched the surface with this post to see what the response would be. I certainly have not and can not post all of our work here right now as some members are looking into some business possibilities but what I can share I will.

1) One square of advertising is not going to make much as you have said. Then give more for the real popular mods.

2) This point should be the first but it is 10pm here, I just got home and walked my dogs and I am tired... ***Lets face it, the future of the internet is in advertising. It will soon become so expensive that the majority of websites will purposely not work if if a user has an ad-blocker. My idea only works if people see the advertising. My thinking is, "If users learn that by seeing ads that they are actually donating to mod authors then they would be more willing to put up with them." Of course, the ads need to be respectful.

3) I happen to disagree with you way of thinking that a system has to benefit all mod authors. There will never be such a system. Just like in real life, there are tiers, income levels that we are all fall into and once you are in one it becomes very difficult to get to the nexrt tier. The system is set up so that even if you got bumped up one tier the income tax usually wipes away any gains. You really have to bump up 2 or 3 tax brackets for you to enjoy your new wealth.

My point is: In this system, I would let the Authors of the Top Mods receive all the advertising income on their page. Since it is really such a small percentage of this website it really wouldn't hurt you so much as you have the rest of the site to gain from.

4) Ad-sense was just an idea I shot in and many people have shot it down for reasons that I won't get in to right now but in the end it just seems it is not a good fit. Still as I have argued in the past, "It is just one more pizza slice in the box."

You would be suprissed that Google is very open to ideas regarding Ad-Sense. Have you ever approached them? They can help you set up a system here.

THAT IS WHAT THEY DO!

YES, like any company you are going to have to be a leader and maybe look into what it would take to set up a system whereas you members get paid for their work.

Dark0ne??? I don't hear any other ideas that solve your TWO MAIN PROBLEMS which are 1) you want mod authors to have an opportunity to make some extra cash and 2) solve your legal problems.

I never said this would be easy. All I have said is that it solves your problems. It certainly creates some hurdles but so what! You are going to HAVE to change your business model a little bit because from what I have been hearing, I think what Bethesda will be doing in the next 3-5 years will change the entire gaming spectrum.

Hey listen, 6 years I was laughed off every TES forum when I posted my predictions about the future of gaming and that people would be paying for mods. That prediction has come true. People are paying for mods right now. The new generation of modders want to pay for mods (LoL) so they are going to win this war because the gaming companies want them to pay for mods as well... from them of course.

We are in a golden age of modding. I remember when you had an idea and called it TESSource and asked people to upload their mods so you could test out your upload system LoL Those were the days eh? The future is a little bit foggy. Yes there will always be free mods however, it is inevitable that the top tier talent will want to make money once somebody figures this all out.

Dark0ne, you are going up against Bethesda and Steam (not to mention a few others) and they are now amalgamating and reorganizing. I suggest you do the same and keep an open mind. You are the top dog and they are coming for you. My idea is that you take your talent and come up with a system that keeps them here and loyal. Look how fast a portion of your members jump ship to try their hand last time. Bethesda is not giving up. That was a test run. What is coming next will blow everyone's pants off. Once they see that they can make money they will leave. It is just human nature. The old guard will stay but that wont be enough to keep afloat. This website relies on new members, new modders constantly signing up, downloading mods and uploading mods. You don't want to lose your top tier talent.

You are a leader in this modding community whether you want to admit it or not. Leaders have to lead and they do so by making difficult decisions. I think the only way modders will eveer make money here at Nexusmods is if YOU manage it. Otherwise Dark0ne, you can bet that Bethesda will be implementing and managing a system with or without Valve. Most likely with them eventually.

Btw, your Premium members could still be add free except on certain mod author pages.

Cheers

PS. Call Google Ad-Sense and discuss the possibilities before blowing it off so quickly. If you don't want to manage a system then they can do it for you. It is a win-win and right now I don't see any better ideas.

GamerPoets wrote: @Dark0ne

Youtubers make more money off of ads than what the ads on nexus make but by no means is it a "crap ton" = ) . If you simply monetize a video with the standard, pre-video, post video and single mid-roll ad (3 in total for a video more than 10 minutes long), and enable all of the types of ads including non-skip ones (which don't play every single view) a youtuber with a 90% ad cut (me) makes about $1 per thousand views. We are then left to put 30% of that aside for taxes. I work 100 hours a week on my channel as I'm on disability and have the time. I have been doing so for the last 18 months since I started the channel. Becoming somewhat known, at least in small circles and having 2.1 million views (not a lot for a youtuber), the channel has made a wopping $2,700 dollars, just over $800 of that to the govt, and over those 18 months working nearly 8,000 hours I pocket $1,900 all of which has gone back into pc equipment and programs to record and edit video. So while its definitely more than a mod page gets, its by no means a crap ton (not to mention that I donate 1/3rd of everything after taxes back to the modding community and as far as I know, myself, and Dirty Weasel Media, are the only youtube channels to donate back to community at all in regards of youtubers who benefit from it) Just wanted to get that off of my chest. That's all lol. Good day. =)
-Michael

Psijonica wrote: @ GamerPoets

Thanks for your post. Of course this idea would work and you are proof of it. Tying into Google, Youtube and ad-sense is really the only course of action that makes sense here because in one swoop all the problems are solved.

To me this is a No-Brainer. It is easy to blow off any idea you hear before you even bother to sit down and explore it. Google has "Solution" teams that specialize in coming up with ideas that solve problems for businesses.

Top Tier modders can legitimately start making money here within a a few months. This idea makes too much sense that the general public will just come up with every idea why it can't work. That is human nature but this idea solves everything.

There you have folks. Not one, but TWO ideas that will make money for the modders here and solve the legal issues.

An d I still have not heard of any other ideas that make any sense and solve the two main issues. My question is, "What are you waiting for?" :)

gezegond wrote: @Psijonica: You implement that system, me and the rest of the 99.2% of modders who wouldn't be earning jack s#*! at the expense of the top 0.8% will just close our mod pages and go to some other modding website. You're so naive it's funny.

And if Dark0ne decides to go head to head with valve and bethesda, he better hire his own army of lawyers because lawsuits will be involved one way or another. So far he has avoided them by giving in to their (Bethesda's) demands whether they have been logical or not. I guarantee if Nexus was earning more money than Bethesda they'd send a friendly email and be like "Guess what, we decided we don't allow shared revenue on your website anymore, shut everything down now or see you in court"

macintroll wrote: @ gezegond :
I don't get your point, with an ads payment system, popular mods can make some $, unpopular ones will not. period. Again it's not the mod itself which earn money, it's the popularity of the pages.

If you can find us a better system where:
1) mods author can make some $ (here, based on popularity)
2) Mods are still 100% free
3) Game company EULA is not broken

Please share

SjoertJansen wrote: @GamerPoets Nice to see you here mate, and with another great post :).

@psijonica Did you read his post proper? Does it really prove it works? Over 2 million views gets you ~$1900, but only if you have 3 rather annoying ads to bother you.

I, and many others, are supporter/premium members to both support the site, and also, to get rid of these ads. If I could get a lifetime removal of YouTube ads, I'd do so in a heartbeat.

gezegond wrote: @macintroll: donations.

@ gezegond : A million thanks you are a genius,
Ok guys ! problem solved..
Donations will save modding from pay walls :D

[SjoertJansen]

In response to post #28581794.

43deadwood wrote: I've made a few modest donations to Mod authors but find it difficult to keep track of them. Even though I keep the PayPal receipts the name of the payee often differs from that of the mod author. Would it be possible to add something like a D button beside mods where the donation button has been pressed, much like endorsing? Also what is the etiquette about donation amounts? It's like tipping in restaurants - what is reasonable? Most of my donations have been around $5 - but in a previous comment someone pointed out that even 500 one dollar donations does make a fair amount. Would I be better donating one dollar to five authors? I'd be interested in the thoughts of others.
I've tried to correct the post - I mean D, not 'D' !

Not sure what the etiquette is, I'd rather go back to before donations.

However, to your other comment, you can track users on this website. There is a nice button right next to the message and kudos button on their profiles. That way you can keep track of them, and you know you've donated.

[Dkboy24]

In response to post #28581794. #28581864 is also a reply to the same post.

43deadwood wrote: I've made a few modest donations to Mod authors but find it difficult to keep track of them. Even though I keep the PayPal receipts the name of the payee often differs from that of the mod author. Would it be possible to add something like a D button beside mods where the donation button has been pressed, much like endorsing? Also what is the etiquette about donation amounts? It's like tipping in restaurants - what is reasonable? Most of my donations have been around $5 - but in a previous comment someone pointed out that even 500 one dollar donations does make a fair amount. Would I be better donating one dollar to five authors? I'd be interested in the thoughts of others.
I've tried to correct the post - I mean D, not 'D' !

SjoertJansen wrote: Not sure what the etiquette is, I'd rather go back to before donations.

However, to your other comment, you can track users on this website. There is a nice button right next to the message and kudos button on their profiles. That way you can keep track of them, and you know you've donated.

I second 43deadwood's comment! I love the idea of an indicator to let us know which mod's we've donated to. Maybe in our download history how there is an endorse reminder? Maybe there could be a donate reminder as well? Like a check box to let us know which mods we've donated to.

I've also wondered about proper donate amount etiquette. I'm sure any amount of cash would be appreciative by the mod author, but at the same time I don't want to give an insulting amount for someone's time and tireless dedication. I've donated between $10-$20 depending on the size (I look at it like how much I would have paid Beth if it was their DLC) but again, not sure here.

[armadillo179]

In response to post #28569244. #28578809 is also a reply to the same post.

MotoSxorpio wrote:

Endorsements could be a long process, five qualifications for endorsement.

 

- does what it advertises.

- has minimal maintenance or hassle with other mods.

- is easy to install.

- enhances gameplay.

- would recommend to others.

 

5 star endorsements. That might help generate user donations.

 

There's a pop-up for endorsements, and mod authors are still asking for them in their descriptions. :armscrossed: I can see why some users might feel like it is being pushed in their faces. I endorse every file that I have tested or played that meets at least 2 of those qualifiers above. I do it to let the mod author know that I at least thought the mod was worth their efforts to share. Sometimes, when its really good, I comment appropriately. I think with a star qualifier endorsement system, users and modders can see just how badass the mod is...or know that the mod needs help, and how desperately.

 

Donations are just as bad...first time you download something, there's the donate pop-up. Haven't used the mod yet, hell it isn't even on my hard drive yet and I'm getting pestered for money and endorsements. Bet there's a few people have that thought cross their mind while surfing for mods. Even when I'm just catching up with tracked files or notifications for updates or trying to endorse from notifications, I'm interrupted with a donation pop-up. Maybe people feel that if they donate for mods, just makes paying for mods OK when they don't agree with pay wall.

 

Either way, at this point, the mod author has to convince the public that they should elect to make an endorsement or donation. And by numbers, that is not yet working to an advantage.

 

People already pay for mods. They buy them on their Playstations, XBoxs, iPhones and more. What we have here, right now is the last of the free modding. Where modders still care about what they put out, and in some way can be held accountable by public input. Paid modding, there won't be all that, I'm afraid.

 

With the numbers that Robin threw out there for donations, what is it even worth? Pack of chewing gum? Why is donations a thing? Get the endorsements, show why there are endorsements. People will pay for a 5 star mod, by donation or whatever.

 

So, IMHO, fix how you get endorsements. Show why there are endorsements. Two surveys, one public for users; one in the backroom for the modders. Find what the majority over a week say about what qualifiers there should be. Get rid of the in your face pop-up, and go back to "word of mouth" for spreading the news about the latest and greatest mod.

 

Just two cents worth. I hope no one is offended by my verbage, I'm just a carpenter/bouncer/cook who figured out how to do stuff on his computer. :)

Devmarta wrote: I like your idea of 5 star endorsements, based on different criteria.

I think the 5 star endorsement system could work.

[armadillo179]

In response to post #28569234.

thelastzombie79 wrote: I remember when people could purchase a complete video game for one price, then we got partial games and have to buy the DLC for the full game. Paid modding looks like a wonderful opportunity to purchase a poorly made base game and then I would have to continue to purchase even smaller pieces at a time to get a full video game. If this becomes a reality I will no longer play or purchase video games and I hope that others will follow.

This was indeed one of my biggest concerns regarding the paid modding scene; would companies like Bethe care less about releasing sloppy broken games in the knowledge that the disgruntled PC audience will fix it for them.
Lets face it, PC games have shown a depressingly consistent history of receiving shoddy slapdash ports only to later be fixed or brought up to a decent standard by modders- not the dev's.

[armadillo179]

In response to post #28566779.

fanuilh1 wrote: I not a modder, leastways not a good one. However how many began because they liked the game but wanted to tweak it a bit? Then some of their friends saw the tweaks and wanted them.....onto the Nexus with them. Once uploaded others began using these tweaks and the author started adding in more ect..
Many learned as they created, some were already into programming or graphic design maybe creating a mod for a thesis. Playing around making mods is not the same as game developement save for the DLC sized ones. Doing something for the love of it or going into a business that you love that maybe started as a hobby....When you feel you need more than accolades it's time to create your own game (avoiding legal snafus) The Nexus isn't about modders getting rich. It's about learning the ropes to tweak your game and if it turns out well sharing. If you find your talented resume time. AKA If you want money for sharing don't share. Just my 2 cents

Exactly. Well said.
I think some people are forgetting that of the thousands of mods available on this site- probably 99% of them actually existed before the paid-mods fiasco, which should probably indicate the mod authors weren't doing it for money!

[zi0nec0]

In response to post #28554799.

Dark0ne wrote: It's been just over 4 months since the paid modding fiasco failed and Valve stopped the sale of mods on the Skyrim Workshop. I'm not here to beat the dead horse on what happened then, but I am here to talk about one of the major fall out points (pun not intended) from that situation, specifically, donations to mod authors.

During the time when paid modding was active, and in the aftermath, two things became very clear; a lot of users on the Nexus didn't know it was even possible to donate money to their favourite mod authors, and the amount of money donated to mod authors was so negligible it bordered on the pointless for almost all mod authors (we're talking a couple of dollars over the course of a 2 year period, even for some of the "big" mods...). We want to try and fix that, to get the word out more about completely voluntary donations while maintaining a certain degree of conformity and professionalism for mod pages.

Before paid modding the donation system was very simple. Mod authors put their Pay Pal email address into their Nexus site preferences and decided whether to turn on a donation button on their file and profile pages. The donation button is in the top-right hand corner of the file page, where the Download, Track and Endorse buttons are also placed. Lots of users missed this.

Accompanying that were a strict set of rules in our terms of service that state, categorically, that mod authors cannot, under any circumstances, ask for or even mention donations anywhere on the site. The main reason for this rule was quite simple; as it stands right now a lot of mod authors already fail to describe what their mod actually does anywhere near the top of their file descriptions. In between huge images, change logs, the latest news about their files/their life/their cats, what they will and won't provide support on and so on and so forth, it's sometimes extremely difficult to find an actual description of the author's mod. What I didn't want was mod authors asking for/demanding donations and giving running commentaries of their donor lists within their file descriptions and sticky comment sections, further muddying what should be an easy to read and understand section of a mod author's file page.

Similarly, we didn't want situations where mod authors withheld functionality that was only for people who donated, or started doing "updates for cash". The idea that the author will update their mod when the donation amount reaches a specific threshold. That's not what the Nexus is about and if mod authors did want to do that they could do that elsewhere. But not here.

This is something we, the people working on the Nexus, can help with by providing mod authors a dedicated area on their file pages to talk about donations. A nice widget or box somewhere on their file page, prominent, but not overbearing and instantly in the user's face, where the mod author can talk about their donations, track and thank their donors and explain what they'll use it for. But right now, with the current design, we just don't have the room to accommodate that. We could make another tab on the file page for donations, but would it be used? Would it really? It's something we'll be working on for our site redesign, but that's not going to be out for a good while yet.

The Nexus has a lot of users who "skirt the rules" already, sitting in a grey area where they know it's a bit naughty, but it's not going to get them into any trouble. I feel if we relaxed the rules on talking about donations, without giving authors a dedicated area to talk about them, then we'd increase our moderator workload substantially, as well as the ensuing drama when we have to make judgement calls on whether what's been written about donations does or doesn't break our ToS. And for that reason, right now, our rules remain the same on soliciting donations.

During and after the paid modding fiasco we altered our donation system slightly. Mod authors can now choose to show users who've already downloaded their file a small pop-up box before they try to download another file on the page. This box informs the user about donations and asks them whether they'd like to donate. The idea being, if you've already downloaded one of the files on a file page and go to download it again, it's likely the reason you're downloading one of the other files on the page is because you're downloading an update to the mod, or an optional file, and you actually liked/use the mod in your game. Similarly, the author can choose to show the same pop-up box when someone chooses to endorse the mod. Once again, the idea being that if you endorse a mod, you like the mod, are you're more likely to actually donate to the author because of that.

Like the donation button, these options are completely voluntary and the mod author can choose to enable, one, two, three or none of the options at the same time.

The inherent problem with the current system is, simply, that it's limited in its scope when compared to platforms like Patreon or Flattr. These platforms are specifically designed for exactly what I'm talking about in this post. From the ground up, they make it fast and easy to donate to your favourite creative people and give them financial support if you so choose. In short, they'd be perfect to implement into the Nexus.

And I'd love to. I mean that. It'd take all the hassle out of us making our own donation systems and we could pass it on to tried and tested platforms that work brilliantly already.

But I can't.

After paid modding failed miserably, donations were talked about a lot both publically and in our private mod author forums. Lots of brainstorming occured on how we could get the word out better. A lot of people agreed (some didn't, mind you!) that systems like Patreon and Flattr would be perfect. I said I would be more than happy to implement them into the Nexus, provided that Bethesda would be OK with the idea and wouldn't send their legion of lawyers after us.

Anyone who reads the gaming news will know, Bethesda's lawyers are trigger happy as f'. In recent years they've sued Mojang, of Minecraft fame, over the use of the name "Scrolls". They've sued Interplay, originally owners of the Fallout IP, over the use of Fallout. They've sued an indie dev for trying to use the game name "Fallout Fortress". And they've sued the Oculus Rift people over the use of "trade secrets". They clearly like using lawyers. I'd rather not lose this entire site over mod author donations.

I encouraged mod authors who were interested in Flattr and/or Patreon to contact Bethesda about the topic and get their take on it. Initial reports back were not good or positive and the general consensus was that Bethesda had said no. The topic was laid to rest.

Then, a few of months back, a site called "Sprked" cropped up, looking to become a Patreon style platform specifically designed for modding and activities of a similar ilk. They began contacting and messaging a lot of mod authors on the Nexus about using their site, but didn't send a message to me about it. I sent them a message asking them to stop doing it immediately. Not only was it spammy, but if mod authors attempted to mention using the service on the Nexus they'd have received a warning, as it would have been seen as soliciting donations. I explained the situation to the person I spoke to at Sprked, that Bethesda seemingly didn't want such a system implemented, but I told them I'd contact Bethesda personally to get to the bottom of it.

So I got in contact with GStaff, the community manager over at Bethesda, to get to the bottom of the issue once and for all. I'll quote the messages I sent to GStaff on the topic, so you can see what I said, but I won't quote GStaff, out of respect, as I have not asked for or had his permission to do so.

Hi Matt,

I hope you're well.

I wanted to give you a heads up on a new site that's just launched called Sprked. It's basically a Kickstarter/Patreon monetisation site tailored specifically for mods. It features Bethesda games, images and IP quite prominently.

I know a user called <redacted for privacy> contacted you after the Skyrim Workshop paid modding situation to ask if Patreon would be OK for mod authors. From what the mod authors had gathered you had indicated Bethesda would not be OK with such a system. Is this correct? I ask, as it's something we would have explored implementing in to the Nexus if you hadn't made it relatively clear to <redacted for privacy> that you weren't OK with it. It's something we would not implement if Bethesda were not happy with the idea, especially if it would sour things between us, and because of this we haven't pursued the idea any further. It's also something we have actively prevented mod authors from advertising on their file pages on the Nexus, which has essentially "nipped it in the bud" as without our authorisation it's practically impossible for them to get the word out about it to their users.

We have extremely strict/tight rules on mod authors asking for donations. Mod authors cannot specifically ask for donations in their file descriptions, they can't offer "perks" for donations and they can only use our generically written donation text, which links to a user's Pay Pal account. The Nexus never, ever, touches donation money. As such, we've informed the creators of Sprked that we will not allow them to contact mod authors about the service/advertise their service on the Nexus until we've heard back from you on the topic, simply because it's against our TOS for mod authors to advertise such services on their file pages at this time. That rule will not change unless you/Bethesda make it clear that such things would be deemed "OK".

If you could shine a light on this rather precarious situation, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Robin

The response I received was one line long and informed me that it was something that Bethesda cannot support.

Unfortunately, GStaff's answer didn't really answer my original question. I wasn't looking for Bethesda to support it, I was writing to make sure if the Nexus supported it, Bethesda wouldn't have a problem with it. I clarified the situation:

Hi GStaff,

Welcome back from what I assume was a busy week last week.

Unfortunately this is something the mod authors are pushing me heavily for so I kind of need a little better wording on this one (sorry!). When you say "it's not something we can support" I don't know whether you mean it's just something Bethesda aren't going to support themselves, on their own sites/services (e.g. Bethesda.NET, the forums and Skyrim Workshop) or whether it's something which, if the Nexus did support it, Bethesda would be unhappy about/come after the Nexus either legally or with a blanket ban on Nexus related use?

Sounds extreme, I know, but when Bethesda opened the Pandora's box that was paid modding all this other stuff came out with it and we, at the Nexus, are coming under pressure to do more to support mod authors from a donation stand-point when we're utterly unsure how far we can go without you, Bethesda, getting upset. Hence this message.

Thanks for your time.

GStaff's answer was to say that yes, it would be problematic if we were to pursue Patreon or Flattr-esque systems on the Nexus, and that was that.

GStaff did not go into any further detail as to why it would be problematic if the Nexus used Patreon or Flattr and frankly, I didn't ask because I didn't want to push any further. You can speculate on the reasons yourselves. I imagine if they were pushed they'd likely quote the tried and tested "legal complications" with such an idea. Though why there'd be legal complications over Patreon/Flattr but not straight-up Pay Pal donations, which Bethesda signed off on personally when I asked them for permission to implement that system after Skyrim's release, I don't know.

It's also been widely reported in the gaming press that Bethesda will be revisiting paid modding at some point after Fallout 4's release and I think we can all safely assume that they're going to be gearing towards such a system on their Bethesda.net site, which they've been talking about a lot as well. Such a system would effectively allow them to cut out Valve as the middleman, accommodate an interesting push in to console modding, and either ensure they can maximise their profit as much as possible, or allow Valve's original cut to go to the mod authors. I freaking hope they're going for the second of those two options. Irrespective, I've no idea if the fact they want to revisit paid modding in the not too distant future has any bearing on their decision to say no to Patreon or Flattr on the Nexus, but I think it's similarly possible.

In light of the fact they've said no, I think what upsets me most, personally, is the seeming irony of Bethesda's stance on the topic of paid modding. They've said time and again that they believe mod authors should be allowed to be compensated for their work, but they forget to add their caveat to that statement; that they seemingly want mod authors to be compensated for their work, provided they can take a cut. And heck, I completely understand why they believe they deserve a cut. It's their game, their platform, from which mod authors would be making money. It's entirely reasonable for them to take a cut (how much of a cut is still open to debate, though!). What I don't appreciate is the fact they try and paint it like they're doing it for the mod authors out of the charity of their own hearts. It just seems really silly.

As I said, this is something I really wanted to get behind for mod authors. It seemed so simple and easy to implement that it was a no brainer. But we can't, and for that, I'm sorry.

I wanted to set the record straight on this topic as I still get contacted about it regularly even today. It was also mentioned a lot in our recent site survey that 25,000 users were kind enough to fill in, and I still see a lot of posts on other sites wondering why we haven't done more. The reason why we haven't done more is because our hands seem to be tied.

If you have any ideas about how we can make donations more prominent and friendly to mod users while using a simple donation system over something more expansive, like Patreon and Flattr, then by all means get in contact or leave us a comment. We're all ears on trying to help out mod authors more, without the potential for getting sued to hell and back.

I like the idea of paid modding. talented folks should make a little something for their efforts. I think the quality bar would have to be set extremely high to weed out the lesser efforts. Definitely should be controlled by an entity capable of maintaining a high standard. If I were to pay for a mod I'd expect a professional well polished and supported product, not someone's abandoned weekend hobby endeavor.

[badkrma]

In response to post #28569234. #28583494, #28592309, #28592709 are all replies on the same post.

thelastzombie79 wrote: I remember when people could purchase a complete video game for one price, then we got partial games and have to buy the DLC for the full game. Paid modding looks like a wonderful opportunity to purchase a poorly made base game and then I would have to continue to purchase even smaller pieces at a time to get a full video game. If this becomes a reality I will no longer play or purchase video games and I hope that others will follow.

armadillo179 wrote: This was indeed one of my biggest concerns regarding the paid modding scene; would companies like Bethe care less about releasing sloppy broken games in the knowledge that the disgruntled PC audience will fix it for them.
Lets face it, PC games have shown a depressingly consistent history of receiving shoddy slapdash ports only to later be fixed or brought up to a decent standard by modders- not the dev's.

jim_uk wrote: Not only would Bethesda be rewarded financially when other people fix their buggy games they could also be rewarded for putting less content in the base game and leaving modders to add the rest, just like micro transactions and DLC, paid mods could alter the very nature of the game.

zi0nec0 wrote: I would be right there with you. My PS4 just collects dust now because every game has turned into a bottomless money hole. If PC gaming goes the same route, that other less honorable venue of modified games will be a welcomed refuge.

Agree, it was about fun years back to tweak the game, now money is the driving force for some...

As far as I'm concerned if people want to mod for money then create your own website and best of luck to you, I wish you no ill, but modding is about fun. If you work so hard on that mod of yours and it takes away from your real life it isn't my problem to financially support you, I respect the hell out of our modders but I don't have enough cash to support them.

Hell, one game can now cost me $200 bucks, buy the game, buy the DLC's and if I constantly donate to modders. Afterall we are talking about games not real life adventures... my 2 cents :) Edited September 10, 2015 by badkrma

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #28554799. #28586009 is also a reply to the same post.

Dark0ne wrote: It's been just over 4 months since the paid modding fiasco failed and Valve stopped the sale of mods on the Skyrim Workshop. I'm not here to beat the dead horse on what happened then, but I am here to talk about one of the major fall out points (pun not intended) from that situation, specifically, donations to mod authors.

During the time when paid modding was active, and in the aftermath, two things became very clear; a lot of users on the Nexus didn't know it was even possible to donate money to their favourite mod authors, and the amount of money donated to mod authors was so negligible it bordered on the pointless for almost all mod authors (we're talking a couple of dollars over the course of a 2 year period, even for some of the "big" mods...). We want to try and fix that, to get the word out more about completely voluntary donations while maintaining a certain degree of conformity and professionalism for mod pages.

Before paid modding the donation system was very simple. Mod authors put their Pay Pal email address into their Nexus site preferences and decided whether to turn on a donation button on their file and profile pages. The donation button is in the top-right hand corner of the file page, where the Download, Track and Endorse buttons are also placed. Lots of users missed this.

Accompanying that were a strict set of rules in our terms of service that state, categorically, that mod authors cannot, under any circumstances, ask for or even mention donations anywhere on the site. The main reason for this rule was quite simple; as it stands right now a lot of mod authors already fail to describe what their mod actually does anywhere near the top of their file descriptions. In between huge images, change logs, the latest news about their files/their life/their cats, what they will and won't provide support on and so on and so forth, it's sometimes extremely difficult to find an actual description of the author's mod. What I didn't want was mod authors asking for/demanding donations and giving running commentaries of their donor lists within their file descriptions and sticky comment sections, further muddying what should be an easy to read and understand section of a mod author's file page.

Similarly, we didn't want situations where mod authors withheld functionality that was only for people who donated, or started doing "updates for cash". The idea that the author will update their mod when the donation amount reaches a specific threshold. That's not what the Nexus is about and if mod authors did want to do that they could do that elsewhere. But not here.

This is something we, the people working on the Nexus, can help with by providing mod authors a dedicated area on their file pages to talk about donations. A nice widget or box somewhere on their file page, prominent, but not overbearing and instantly in the user's face, where the mod author can talk about their donations, track and thank their donors and explain what they'll use it for. But right now, with the current design, we just don't have the room to accommodate that. We could make another tab on the file page for donations, but would it be used? Would it really? It's something we'll be working on for our site redesign, but that's not going to be out for a good while yet.

The Nexus has a lot of users who "skirt the rules" already, sitting in a grey area where they know it's a bit naughty, but it's not going to get them into any trouble. I feel if we relaxed the rules on talking about donations, without giving authors a dedicated area to talk about them, then we'd increase our moderator workload substantially, as well as the ensuing drama when we have to make judgement calls on whether what's been written about donations does or doesn't break our ToS. And for that reason, right now, our rules remain the same on soliciting donations.

During and after the paid modding fiasco we altered our donation system slightly. Mod authors can now choose to show users who've already downloaded their file a small pop-up box before they try to download another file on the page. This box informs the user about donations and asks them whether they'd like to donate. The idea being, if you've already downloaded one of the files on a file page and go to download it again, it's likely the reason you're downloading one of the other files on the page is because you're downloading an update to the mod, or an optional file, and you actually liked/use the mod in your game. Similarly, the author can choose to show the same pop-up box when someone chooses to endorse the mod. Once again, the idea being that if you endorse a mod, you like the mod, are you're more likely to actually donate to the author because of that.

Like the donation button, these options are completely voluntary and the mod author can choose to enable, one, two, three or none of the options at the same time.

The inherent problem with the current system is, simply, that it's limited in its scope when compared to platforms like Patreon or Flattr. These platforms are specifically designed for exactly what I'm talking about in this post. From the ground up, they make it fast and easy to donate to your favourite creative people and give them financial support if you so choose. In short, they'd be perfect to implement into the Nexus.

And I'd love to. I mean that. It'd take all the hassle out of us making our own donation systems and we could pass it on to tried and tested platforms that work brilliantly already.

But I can't.

After paid modding failed miserably, donations were talked about a lot both publically and in our private mod author forums. Lots of brainstorming occured on how we could get the word out better. A lot of people agreed (some didn't, mind you!) that systems like Patreon and Flattr would be perfect. I said I would be more than happy to implement them into the Nexus, provided that Bethesda would be OK with the idea and wouldn't send their legion of lawyers after us.

Anyone who reads the gaming news will know, Bethesda's lawyers are trigger happy as f'. In recent years they've sued Mojang, of Minecraft fame, over the use of the name "Scrolls". They've sued Interplay, originally owners of the Fallout IP, over the use of Fallout. They've sued an indie dev for trying to use the game name "Fallout Fortress". And they've sued the Oculus Rift people over the use of "trade secrets". They clearly like using lawyers. I'd rather not lose this entire site over mod author donations.

I encouraged mod authors who were interested in Flattr and/or Patreon to contact Bethesda about the topic and get their take on it. Initial reports back were not good or positive and the general consensus was that Bethesda had said no. The topic was laid to rest.

Then, a few of months back, a site called "Sprked" cropped up, looking to become a Patreon style platform specifically designed for modding and activities of a similar ilk. They began contacting and messaging a lot of mod authors on the Nexus about using their site, but didn't send a message to me about it. I sent them a message asking them to stop doing it immediately. Not only was it spammy, but if mod authors attempted to mention using the service on the Nexus they'd have received a warning, as it would have been seen as soliciting donations. I explained the situation to the person I spoke to at Sprked, that Bethesda seemingly didn't want such a system implemented, but I told them I'd contact Bethesda personally to get to the bottom of it.

So I got in contact with GStaff, the community manager over at Bethesda, to get to the bottom of the issue once and for all. I'll quote the messages I sent to GStaff on the topic, so you can see what I said, but I won't quote GStaff, out of respect, as I have not asked for or had his permission to do so.

Hi Matt,

I hope you're well.

I wanted to give you a heads up on a new site that's just launched called Sprked. It's basically a Kickstarter/Patreon monetisation site tailored specifically for mods. It features Bethesda games, images and IP quite prominently.

I know a user called <redacted for privacy> contacted you after the Skyrim Workshop paid modding situation to ask if Patreon would be OK for mod authors. From what the mod authors had gathered you had indicated Bethesda would not be OK with such a system. Is this correct? I ask, as it's something we would have explored implementing in to the Nexus if you hadn't made it relatively clear to <redacted for privacy> that you weren't OK with it. It's something we would not implement if Bethesda were not happy with the idea, especially if it would sour things between us, and because of this we haven't pursued the idea any further. It's also something we have actively prevented mod authors from advertising on their file pages on the Nexus, which has essentially "nipped it in the bud" as without our authorisation it's practically impossible for them to get the word out about it to their users.

We have extremely strict/tight rules on mod authors asking for donations. Mod authors cannot specifically ask for donations in their file descriptions, they can't offer "perks" for donations and they can only use our generically written donation text, which links to a user's Pay Pal account. The Nexus never, ever, touches donation money. As such, we've informed the creators of Sprked that we will not allow them to contact mod authors about the service/advertise their service on the Nexus until we've heard back from you on the topic, simply because it's against our TOS for mod authors to advertise such services on their file pages at this time. That rule will not change unless you/Bethesda make it clear that such things would be deemed "OK".

If you could shine a light on this rather precarious situation, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Robin

The response I received was one line long and informed me that it was something that Bethesda cannot support.

Unfortunately, GStaff's answer didn't really answer my original question. I wasn't looking for Bethesda to support it, I was writing to make sure if the Nexus supported it, Bethesda wouldn't have a problem with it. I clarified the situation:

Hi GStaff,

Welcome back from what I assume was a busy week last week.

Unfortunately this is something the mod authors are pushing me heavily for so I kind of need a little better wording on this one (sorry!). When you say "it's not something we can support" I don't know whether you mean it's just something Bethesda aren't going to support themselves, on their own sites/services (e.g. Bethesda.NET, the forums and Skyrim Workshop) or whether it's something which, if the Nexus did support it, Bethesda would be unhappy about/come after the Nexus either legally or with a blanket ban on Nexus related use?

Sounds extreme, I know, but when Bethesda opened the Pandora's box that was paid modding all this other stuff came out with it and we, at the Nexus, are coming under pressure to do more to support mod authors from a donation stand-point when we're utterly unsure how far we can go without you, Bethesda, getting upset. Hence this message.

Thanks for your time.

GStaff's answer was to say that yes, it would be problematic if we were to pursue Patreon or Flattr-esque systems on the Nexus, and that was that.

GStaff did not go into any further detail as to why it would be problematic if the Nexus used Patreon or Flattr and frankly, I didn't ask because I didn't want to push any further. You can speculate on the reasons yourselves. I imagine if they were pushed they'd likely quote the tried and tested "legal complications" with such an idea. Though why there'd be legal complications over Patreon/Flattr but not straight-up Pay Pal donations, which Bethesda signed off on personally when I asked them for permission to implement that system after Skyrim's release, I don't know.

It's also been widely reported in the gaming press that Bethesda will be revisiting paid modding at some point after Fallout 4's release and I think we can all safely assume that they're going to be gearing towards such a system on their Bethesda.net site, which they've been talking about a lot as well. Such a system would effectively allow them to cut out Valve as the middleman, accommodate an interesting push in to console modding, and either ensure they can maximise their profit as much as possible, or allow Valve's original cut to go to the mod authors. I freaking hope they're going for the second of those two options. Irrespective, I've no idea if the fact they want to revisit paid modding in the not too distant future has any bearing on their decision to say no to Patreon or Flattr on the Nexus, but I think it's similarly possible.

In light of the fact they've said no, I think what upsets me most, personally, is the seeming irony of Bethesda's stance on the topic of paid modding. They've said time and again that they believe mod authors should be allowed to be compensated for their work, but they forget to add their caveat to that statement; that they seemingly want mod authors to be compensated for their work, provided they can take a cut. And heck, I completely understand why they believe they deserve a cut. It's their game, their platform, from which mod authors would be making money. It's entirely reasonable for them to take a cut (how much of a cut is still open to debate, though!). What I don't appreciate is the fact they try and paint it like they're doing it for the mod authors out of the charity of their own hearts. It just seems really silly.

As I said, this is something I really wanted to get behind for mod authors. It seemed so simple and easy to implement that it was a no brainer. But we can't, and for that, I'm sorry.

I wanted to set the record straight on this topic as I still get contacted about it regularly even today. It was also mentioned a lot in our recent site survey that 25,000 users were kind enough to fill in, and I still see a lot of posts on other sites wondering why we haven't done more. The reason why we haven't done more is because our hands seem to be tied.

If you have any ideas about how we can make donations more prominent and friendly to mod users while using a simple donation system over something more expansive, like Patreon and Flattr, then by all means get in contact or leave us a comment. We're all ears on trying to help out mod authors more, without the potential for getting sued to hell and back.

zi0nec0 wrote: I like the idea of paid modding. talented folks should make a little something for their efforts. I think the quality bar would have to be set extremely high to weed out the lesser efforts. Definitely should be controlled by an entity capable of maintaining a high standard. If I were to pay for a mod I'd expect a professional well polished and supported product, not someone's abandoned weekend hobby endeavor.

If only we held the game developers to the same standards rather than unrealistically expecting this of modders :P