Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[simtam]

Let's not antagonize users and modders, shall we?

 

For games where paid mods are allowed, there is - and it ever will be - a full spectrum of free mods, full-priced mods, discounted mods, free demo-versions of full payable mods, and so on - whatever price discrimination marketing invented.

 

For game titles where paid mods are disallowed by the game creators, modding remains free. Sure, you could expect some exceptions in some jurisdictions, but this activity is dwarfed by real commercial game development, where one can actually build or rent a game engine of one's choice.

[gezegond]

In response to post #28608069. #28610219, #28612134, #28612269 are all replies on the same post.

Neolin_windblade wrote: So I guess I have a quick question. I'm not a modder (Well, I have 1 tiny mod released), but I can understand why modders would like to have donations for their time and talents. Which Is why I'm all for a volunteer-donation type system, and why I would probably support something like a Patreon system, if something were worked out...

Anyway, my question:

I understand that the Nexus itself can't use Patreon for their donation system, or even advocate for modders to do so, I get that. But are Bethesda saying that modders can't use Patreon themselves to support themselves while they are modding?

I have seen quite a few Patreon users (not modders necessarily, but game makers, art makers, etc) who release all their works for free, or release to their supporters first, but eventually make everything free as a project goes down the dev cycle. What would be the issue? Could not a modder use Patreon, but release the mod for free? In effect, this would be the supporters paying the modder for the time he is using to make the mod, but not for the mod itself, since the mod could be accessed for free by anyone.... Or are they saying that Bethesda has a legal issue with that?

I'm a big fan of Bethesda's games, but the paid modding thing did get to me. And what I see in their messages to Robin, about how they can't allow support of Patreon...all I see is greed. They don't want a cut of their possible profit being out of their hands...

sevencardz wrote: Good question. I was actually wondering this myself. If a modder were to say... change the description on a mod hosted on the Nexus to instead link to a neutral external site hosting the mod description and a Patreon link designed specifically to support the modder's time and effort (not the mod itself) - could Bethesda take issue with that? To be clear - the 'service' provided here would not be the mod, or even updates to the mod (which would happen free of charge on the Nexus). Rather the 'service' would be the time spent by the modder developing features for the mod, supporting the mod, communicating with users about bugs and updates, etc.

Bethesda doesn't own me or my time so they can't claim to have any rights to any revenue I generate from that. Essentially, users would be donating to me as a mod author for my time and expertise, not for the mods themselves.

Based on Bethesda's rather terse response, it sounds like they don't even know where the line is or they haven't put much thought into it beyond "Oh, just tell everyone not to do anything that might cut into our profit margin". No problem - my time is not part of Bethesda's profit margin.

icecreamassassin wrote: The issue is that Nexus would be responsible for any links to external sites that directly provide something that Bethesda is legally against. Nexus would not allow a link to your Patreon site for example. The only gray area around this would be if you put a link to your blog which has info about your Patreon account. I think at that point, Bethesda would not be able to hold Nexus accountable because Nexus is not in control of content on other people's web pages, only the links to offending web pages (direct links to patreon for example).

icecreamassassin wrote: That said, there would be nothing stopping Bethesda from coming after the modder directly and it would be within their right to do so, but it would be a needle in a haystack situation to track down the modders that are setting up support pages.

The only other way I see would be if you were a designer in other areas such as a table top RPG/Board/Card game designer (like me) who has products and projects in the works and you also made mention of your modding projects (blog style) and via the Nexus based link to your blog page people could find your patreon page, I think it would be pretty hard to have Nexus or Bethesda object as long as the other projects were in fact legit and your mod fans wanted to just happen to support your modding by means of supporting your other projects.

Just make a blog and write "Hello" in a single post and then write in your patreon "Blogger and Mod Author" and if Bethesda came after you for the patreon (hint: they can't) just tell em people are paying for your blog.

It's ridiculous because Bethesda is being ridiculous they don't own us just because we used their tools.

[43deadwood]

In response to post #28581794. #28581864, #28582054, #28596169 are all replies on the same post.

43deadwood wrote: I've made a few modest donations to Mod authors but find it difficult to keep track of them. Even though I keep the PayPal receipts the name of the payee often differs from that of the mod author. Would it be possible to add something like a D button beside mods where the donation button has been pressed, much like endorsing? Also what is the etiquette about donation amounts? It's like tipping in restaurants - what is reasonable? Most of my donations have been around $5 - but in a previous comment someone pointed out that even 500 one dollar donations does make a fair amount. Would I be better donating one dollar to five authors? I'd be interested in the thoughts of others.
I've tried to correct the post - I mean D, not 'D' !

SjoertJansen wrote: Not sure what the etiquette is, I'd rather go back to before donations.

However, to your other comment, you can track users on this website. There is a nice button right next to the message and kudos button on their profiles. That way you can keep track of them, and you know you've donated.

Dkboy24 wrote: I second 43deadwood's comment! I love the idea of an indicator to let us know which mod's we've donated to. Maybe in our download history how there is an endorse reminder? Maybe there could be a donate reminder as well? Like a check box to let us know which mods we've donated to.

I've also wondered about proper donate amount etiquette. I'm sure any amount of cash would be appreciative by the mod author, but at the same time I don't want to give an insulting amount for someone's time and tireless dedication. I've donated between $10-$20 depending on the size (I look at it like how much I would have paid Beth if it was their DLC) but again, not sure here.

Galadreal wrote: I think it is a matter of personal preference. If it is a mod you MUST HAVE to play the game. Something you cannot imagine playing without. Then donate a little more. If it is just something that you enjoy, but could do without if pressed, a little less. Make a coffee scale. This mod is worth a simple coffee...1 dollar. OMG, This mod is a Double Shot Espresso with extra foam...5 Dollars. Use common sense and imagine how you would feel if the situation was reversed.
That might not be perfectly sound logic, but I am chronic tipper for restaurants. I always start at a standard 5 dollars and scale up or down depending on service, cost of food, drink refills and whatnot.

Thanks - didn't know about that check on the profile page - I never use it that much.

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #28614939. #28616054 is also a reply to the same post.

RGMage2 wrote:

Times change. We live in a problematic economy, many people are struggling to get by. Normally when people resort to cottage industry, and creative innovative ways to make a living they are lauded for their efforts. Here they are ridiculed. Reason? Not the entitlement of the one who does the work, but rather the entitlement of the one who is used to getting it for free, and sees this change as a threat to their continued privilege.

jim_uk wrote: It's only mod makers who are struggling to get by? are users rolling in money? Let's turn this around, the entitlement might come from those who have walked into a long established community and then demanded that the community support them financially. Modders aren't poor hard done by victims, no one is forced to mod, feel used and abused? then close the CK/Geck/CS and the problem will go away.

My opposition to it comes from the fact that it will fundamentally change the way games are made just as micro transactions and DLC have. Developers aren't going to put a system of paid modding into place and then not adjust the game to push those paid mods at people, we already see it with the aforementioned micro transactions and DLC. Bethesda now have an incentive not to fix lesser bugs because they'll profit from community made bug fixes, they also have an incentive to include less content, again profiting from mods, this time adding content. And don't think they wouldn't do it, companies exist solely to part people from their money, Bethesda are no exception.

I don't see any modders sitting around demanding payment for their time. Just those of us who would like to have that option being called evil greedy capitalist pigs for wanting an option that you aren't even required to spend money on.

Yes, companies exist to make money. That's kind of basic common knowledge and, well, I don't know why anyone thinks otherwise. There's no such thing as a company who isn't out to make money in some way. There is NOTHING evil about wanting to make money, or for the most part in being "aggressive" or "pushy" about trying to get people to spend money on your product vs some other company's product.

Hell, even changing the nature of how games work isn't evil. I remember perfectly well how everyone complained that the dawn of DLC (ironically, largely Bethesda's fault) was going to be the death of gaming. Guess what didn't happen? Paid mods are being targeted by exactly the same kind of entitlement minded people who think it'll ruin gaming forever. 10 years from now we'll all be sitting back thinking it's perfectly normal and the only real discussion will be about whether or not some mods are worth buying - just like we do now with what DLCs we all want.

This demonizing of people who want to make a bit of side money (or, yes, maybe even turn it into a job) needs to stop.

[bcofer]

My humble suggestion: Duplicate the Donate! pop-up/widget to trigger when I hit Endorse.

 

I read all six pages, and realize that the percentage of Endorsers is low, but right now the donate request just gets triggered and shows up at the wrong time.

 

I just downloaded an armor (main file) and Bodyslide2 file (extra file).

 

Nexus asked me to donate to a mod that I haven't even downloaded yet.

 

After I download, unzip, install, play with and evaluate, make sure that it gets along well with other mods, and I like it, I may come back to endorse it.

 

Then ask me for money. If it's a great mod, I much more likely to think "Hey, thanks for the great mod! Here, go buy yourself a pint or something."

 

Also, NMM does a pretty good job of telling me if I have endorsed a mod. Could it be modified to show a $$ sign (or whatever currency you use) for mods I've both endorsed and donated to?

[Darole]

One thing I don't see mentioned, when discussing whether or not Bethesda can control the mods, is cost of the tools. Right now people can download the tools to make mods for free, but if Bethesda really wanted control/money from the modders they would charge for the tools.
So you can say they can't touch the modder or the mod, but that isn't necessarily true.
Worse, they could release updated versions of the tools for $$$ and then rescind the free license on the existing tools (had that happen to a community I was part of once).

[icecreamassassin]

well another aspect I hadn't really though about before now but now that I think about it really makes me angry is that fact that there are a handful of youtubers who make reviews or playthrough videos about our mods (which is great promotion for the mod mind you and I know a ton of work goes into it), But they are allowed to profit off it. I know one off hand that makes $846 per month from sustained supporters, and somehow THEY are allowed to show our content and Bethesda's intellectual property and profit off it? yet the people who are actually producing new content are not allowed to profit from it? (in a great many cases high quality content that is keeping people interested and in fact in some cases driving more sales of Skyrim and the DLC's), That is quite lame IMO.

 

What Bethesda should do is offer a paypal style button that sites can host in place of the donation button that allows people to contribute SUSTAINED OR ONE TIME donations to the modder who set it up, take 40% for themselves, give 10% to the parent site the donation button is from (Nexus), and the other 50% to the modder. This allows them to get their cut, allows modders to have a possibility at sustained support for current and future projects and still allows it all to be voluntary, avoiding the whole "why pay for something you don't know about the quality of" because it's all still free and you only pay if you wanna support the modder and like the product.

[gezegond]

In response to post #28618554.

Darole wrote:

One thing I don't see mentioned, when discussing whether or not Bethesda can control the mods, is cost of the tools. Right now people can download the tools to make mods for free, but if Bethesda really wanted control/money from the modders they would charge for the tools.
So you can say they can't touch the modder or the mod, but that isn't necessarily true.
Worse, they could release updated versions of the tools for $$$ and then rescind the free license on the existing tools (had that happen to a community I was part of once).

People can make their own tools. As far as I know at least for Skyrim the only tool Bethesda has developed is Creation Kit the rest of the tools people use are all either made by the community (Nifskope, TES5Edit, BSAOpt) or have nothing to do with Skyrim itself (i.e. Blender, Gimp, Photoshop etc.)

[MrJoseCuervo]

So what will the Nexus cut be?

[MrJoseCuervo]

Also which mod authors are pushing you? I would like to know so I can ignore their mods.

 

 

Thanks