Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28604034.

Laast wrote: Many users here seem to think that a modder is simply a bot who provide a file, answer questions, help users, and make updates. Why a bot would want to get retribution? This is not work, this is just Internet! Internet is just a matter of entertainment and sharing!

I had the chance to make mods which became popular (at a point that even Bethesda noticed my work), and I'm still thanksfull to the communauty for that. But after the paid mod story (which I lived from the inside), I realized that there was a deep misundertanding between popular modders and users.

Creating and supporting a popular mod is incredibly time consuming. The more users download your mod, the more you have to answer questions, provide support, and ultimately the more you try to give your best to take requests and to improve the mod. Making updates for a mod is as difficult and time consuming as creating the mod itself. It's an endless work.

Believe me or not, most of modders have a real life with a full-time job. Some have a wife/husband, some have children. And they have only 24 hours per day. Just like anybody else.

Four months ago, I realized that many users here and on the Workshop didn't even think about this, and were so selfish: "Mods are free! Mods mean sharing! I don't want to spend money for mods!..." But where are mods coming from? They come from the free time sacrificed, the countless hours some people spend to create them, with their heart and soul, without any other purpose than the pleasure of sharing their passion.

Doesn't this deserve a form of retribution if you like their work?

I don't have to justify myself about why I spend my free time on modding and why I chose to sell my mod on Steam. I don't have to explain why I think paid mods was not the so-called worst idea of the century. I'm a creator, so I create. What I'm doing with my creations, this is my business.

Some people understand, some people don't.

(Sorry if my english is not as perfect as I would like).

Nobody needed to explain anything and nobody deserved anything. Mods just appeared. Yeah somebody put in their sweat and tears, but for any mod user... they just showed up and it wasn't a crime to download them.

Heck, even if paid modding was a wholesomely accepted success and we didn't fight over the change, we would instead be fighting about the same things the rest of the commercial issues plaguing creative works: value for money and market troubles.

We'd STILL be fighting. Mod users would be complaining about how much any mod costs and whether it's any good. Mod makers would be complaining that nobody cares about their mods and that they still can't make money, that they couldn't market their wares any better.

We all know people make mods, that they're not robots. You can bet however that if mods were paid like they were, business would straight away invent some mod-making robots.

[jumbojet555]

In response to post #28604034. #28621294 is also a reply to the same post.

Laast wrote: Many users here seem to think that a modder is simply a bot who provide a file, answer questions, help users, and make updates. Why a bot would want to get retribution? This is not work, this is just Internet! Internet is just a matter of entertainment and sharing!

I had the chance to make mods which became popular (at a point that even Bethesda noticed my work), and I'm still thanksfull to the communauty for that. But after the paid mod story (which I lived from the inside), I realized that there was a deep misundertanding between popular modders and users.

Creating and supporting a popular mod is incredibly time consuming. The more users download your mod, the more you have to answer questions, provide support, and ultimately the more you try to give your best to take requests and to improve the mod. Making updates for a mod is as difficult and time consuming as creating the mod itself. It's an endless work.

Believe me or not, most of modders have a real life with a full-time job. Some have a wife/husband, some have children. And they have only 24 hours per day. Just like anybody else.

Four months ago, I realized that many users here and on the Workshop didn't even think about this, and were so selfish: "Mods are free! Mods mean sharing! I don't want to spend money for mods!..." But where are mods coming from? They come from the free time sacrificed, the countless hours some people spend to create them, with their heart and soul, without any other purpose than the pleasure of sharing their passion.

Doesn't this deserve a form of retribution if you like their work?

I don't have to justify myself about why I spend my free time on modding and why I chose to sell my mod on Steam. I don't have to explain why I think paid mods was not the so-called worst idea of the century. I'm a creator, so I create. What I'm doing with my creations, this is my business.

Some people understand, some people don't.

(Sorry if my english is not as perfect as I would like).

Ghatto wrote: Nobody needed to explain anything and nobody deserved anything. Mods just appeared. Yeah somebody put in their sweat and tears, but for any mod user... they just showed up and it wasn't a crime to download them.

Heck, even if paid modding was a wholesomely accepted success and we didn't fight over the change, we would instead be fighting about the same things the rest of the commercial issues plaguing creative works: value for money and market troubles.

We'd STILL be fighting. Mod users would be complaining about how much any mod costs and whether it's any good. Mod makers would be complaining that nobody cares about their mods and that they still can't make money, that they couldn't market their wares any better.

We all know people make mods, that they're not robots. You can bet however that if mods were paid like they were, business would straight away invent some mod-making robots.

Agreed with Ghatto 100%. I feel like the community as a whole would respond negatively. If you really need compensation for creating a mod, then what you want is to be an indie developer. Invest your resources there and create your own game, but good gravy, don't start charging me for a modification to a current one. The people who make the greatest mods do it because they have a passion for it. If mods get monetized, you start getting a bunch of people who would try and make a mod for a quick buck. The quality of mods would really go down. What makes mods great is the passion and support of the developers. I'm fine with donation pages but outright charging to use a mod is absurd. If I was a game developer, I'd be pretty pissed if someone modified my work and tried to sell it. Its my code, yet you want to put a price tag for changing a few lines, no thanks. (That is obviously not meant to be taken in a literal sense, but you get the picture) Edited September 12, 2015 by jumbojet555

[CaptainCockerel]

In response to post #28619034.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Also which mod authors are pushing you? I would like to know so I can ignore their mods.


Thanks

Wow you are a bitter one. Is it a crime they want to get a bit more compensation for keeping Bethesda's games alive? Also, if you want to point fingers at me, I only recently enabled donations because I was asked by some of my users. That should say everything. My users are the best, and if they want to support me even further, then that is now their choice!

[simtam]

 

Oh yeah there's just so many free skins in Counter Strike GO I can use.

 

Sounds like you feel entitled :ermm:

[MrJoseCuervo]

In response to post #28619034. #28621904 is also a reply to the same post.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Also which mod authors are pushing you? I would like to know so I can ignore their mods.


Thanks

SparrowPrince wrote: Wow you are a bitter one. Is it a crime they want to get a bit more compensation for keeping Bethesda's games alive? Also, if you want to point fingers at me, I only recently enabled donations because I was asked by some of my users. That should say everything. My users are the best, and if they want to support me even further, then that is now their choice!

Turning a $60 game into potentially a game that costs hundreds of dollars simply because some people are greedy is ridiculous.

Thanks for making mods, but if you look at it as a way to make money you are an enemy to gaming and deserve to be shunned.

If you want to make money, get a job, don't try to monetize gaming and ruining it for your own greed. Edited September 12, 2015 by MrJoseCuervo

[MrJoseCuervo]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

[Galadreal]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

[DefiniteIntegral]

It seems as though many of the anti-payment comments here are really directed at paid mods, not donations. These two things are ethically and legally distinct.

 

Paid mods would be a commercial transaction, with legally binding rights and obligations as set out by the relevant trade acts in the jurisdiction the trade takes place.

 

Donations are not a commercial transaction, have no legally binding rights or obligations, contain no guarantee of fitness for purpose or guarantee of future service. It is totally voluntary, and is not a payment for service, but simply a gratitude.

 

Really donations are a win-win for everyone. Modders have no legal right to demand payment, and users have no legal obligation to pay. Modders who do receive a donation will feel more appreciated for their hard work, and that gratification will likely lead them to continue putting in effort to improve their mods. Which in turn is beneficial to the users.

 

Think about it like this: If you help your mate move house, which do you appreciate more as a thanks for your effort? A case of beer, or a pat on the back? Yeah, it's the beer. But is your friend obliged to give it to you? No, because you offered to help voluntarily. But it is appreciated nonetheless. And so it is with mod donations.

 

[Deleted7923792User]

In response to post #28619034. #28621904, #28622324 are all replies on the same post.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Also which mod authors are pushing you? I would like to know so I can ignore their mods.


Thanks

SparrowPrince wrote: Wow you are a bitter one. Is it a crime they want to get a bit more compensation for keeping Bethesda's games alive? Also, if you want to point fingers at me, I only recently enabled donations because I was asked by some of my users. That should say everything. My users are the best, and if they want to support me even further, then that is now their choice!

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Turning a $60 game into potentially a game that costs hundreds of dollars simply because some people are greedy is ridiculous.

Thanks for making mods, but if you look at it as a way to make money you are an enemy to gaming and deserve to be shunned.

If you want to make money, get a job, don't try to monetize gaming and ruining it for your own greed.

He isn't making you pay for mods.... He is giving people the OPTION to donate if they like the mod and want to support him in making more mods....