Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Antioche]

Everything I could possibly say breaks the terms of agreement with the site.

[Antioche]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630799, #28630989, #28631099, #28649744, #28671734, #28674019, #28694069, #28695409, #28701504 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

AeroModss wrote: @Jafin16
You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there.

AeroModss wrote: Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

AeroModss wrote: @Chesko
Yep mate,it won't happend because of some people who have to be always different in some ways.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Back when I was a modder using Valve's Worldcraft, (Later renamed to Hammer) I never expected a dime. Honestly, I have always seen it as a way to gain experience for entering the gaming industry. It looks great on a resume and that in and of itself is payment enough.

Everyone at some point needs to move on. Modding is an entry point, not a job. Keeping in mind, I am not saying it can't become a job. It can, but it's pretty rare and if that is what you are looking to do, you are better off going to games that are made with that in mind. If I remember correctly, there are some people who run successful businesses on Second Life. Mojang seems to allow you to sell your mods, at least I have seen some people doing so.

If you want to be paid to do what you love, try doing it in a community that has already accepted paid modding or try and get a job in the gaming industry. If it means no longer being able to mod for skyrim, then so be it. That tends to be the way the modding community works. Modders come and go. As they get older they have to eventually move on. Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job. You can get a job similar to your hobby though.

HadToRegister wrote: NOBODY....NOBODY ever started modding with the idea of making money from it, other than as a portfolio to possibly get a job offer, but not from making mods.

Mods are at most a resumé, not a source of income.

Mods are ESSENTIAL for Bethesda games because Bethesda games are notoriously buggy, half-finished and incomplete, and modding Bethesda games was done out of necessity

The fact that Bethesda is trying to make extra money by having the people who purchased the game, actually FIX THE GAME FOR THEM is pretty lame.

I've been playing guitar for 40 years, sometimes I get paid to play, other times I don't, either is cool with me BECAUSE I ENJOY PLAYING THE GUITAR.

Gopher wrote: "Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job."

And yet millions of people do. They may be the lucky few, but there is nothing inherently 'illegal' with turning your hobby into a job. If someone will pay you to do something and that something is not against the law and hurts nobody (in a legally relevant sense), then you can very easily turn a hobby into a business.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @Gopher
Hi there Gopher.

"And yet millions of people do. They may be the lucky few, but there is nothing inherently 'illegal' with turning your hobby into a job. If someone will pay you to do something and that something is not against the law and hurts nobody (in a legally relevant sense), then you can very easily turn a hobby into a business."

This is why I said "typically." It's certainly possible to turn a hobby into a job, but it's not very often that it occurs. I also never said it was illegal, so not sure where you got that from. Artists can do it, by doing commissions as an example. However, you have to be really good at what you do in order to make a living off of commissions. You need a large enough fan base. You also need original characters that people want drawings of. If you make to much money off of fan art, you tend to get sued. Most artists don't continue doing that though. Many move on to become animators, or work for a company. They end up in a field similar to their hobby.

The same goes with modding, except modding is a bit harder to do because you always are using another's IP in order to do it. It's closer to trying to sell fan art, than original characters. That is why modding for the majority of it's life has been free. Because of legal reasons. Modders knew that from day 1 when they started modding, or at least they should. It's a hobby, not a job. If you want compensation for the work you put in, then I suggest you stop wasting your time on something so unsure. Put that time and effort into something you know you can make money off of. Don't just make something that would normally be free, and hope to sell it. It's never going to go well.

You didn't start youtube assuming it would ever be your job, I bet. A hobby can turn into a job, but it's rare, and it can't be forced. Garry probably also never expected to sell his mod, and he certainly didn't force it. Black Mesa Source also ended up the same way.

If you are making a free mod, you can't just turn around and say to fans, you now have to pay for it. You have to have something fans feel is worth paying for first. Especially if you are going to be charging close to dlc / official content prices.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Unsubscribed.

firestorm432 wrote: I am usually just a lurker on here, but I am so sick and tired of this. Sure, seweryn could have worded things better. A lot of people could have. Quite a few modders and non-modders alike could have. Prime examples all over this thread. We all sound like angry school children who just learned how to use big words right now. Yes, I do to just for losing my patience to post a grievance for something I saw on the ever-loving internet, that in no way even effects me.

Just remember everyone, the tone of voice that you intend with a text message will never matter. If some one is in a bad mood, or is already touchy on the subject, they will find a way to read it as an attack, insult, offensive tone, you name it. Emoticons will only go so far. Its just the very nature of the internet. You can only change how YOU choose to handle what you read. I just hope we can all realize how dumb these web fights are. I know folk who cant even afford their power bill yet are the kindest, nicest folk in the world, and here we all are getting worked up over people we may never meet saying un informed things too many times.
I spoke my peace, feel free to pick me apart. I won't fight it one bit, or respond. The fire has enough feed as is.

+1

[rdmartin20]

In response to post #28663749. #28664219, #28665004, #28665334, #28675154, #28676099, #28680064, #28683254, #28685979, #28688519, #28692194, #28693064, #28695724, #28698454, #28699009, #28699519 are all replies on the same post.

axonis wrote: Many people here don't seem to get it. This isn't a discussion about premium modding. This is coming, whether they like it or not. This is a discussion about helping the Nexus keep AAA modders here. So, if you feel that you owe something to Dark0ne and the rest, then give them your support by

1) Shutting up your drivel against creators who want to sell their products.
2) Try to think of ways to keep those creators happy by flowing donations.
3) Donate, if you can.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Greedy modders can take a hike. If they want to try and make a living modding good luck with that because it will not happen.

Real modders will continue to make mods and get exposure for their talents.

Mods are not a requirement. If you want to spend hours working on something then attempt to charge for it, then hardly anyone will see your work or it will just pirated from you. You are just peeing into the wind.

Galadreal wrote: Wow, you just totally missed the point of the previous comment, didn't you? I mean seriously, I have seen your other posts on here, and I can only guess that you are just here for the trolling. And while I think everyone is allowed to their opinions, this is not a place for trolls. Please remove your hands from the keyboard unless you actually have something constructive to contribute.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you don't contribute anything, you don't have any mods that you share with people, and you only have 26 posts, most of which I think are on this thread. So yeah...I don't actually care what you have to say.

Edited: to try to be less angry...and FAILED. I am still angry.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: I see, you don't care about the people who use your content.

That is obvious since you want to join the corporate goons and destroy modding as we know it with the hopes of getting money.

Lets see what mods you have done.

One adds more food to Inn keepers inventory.

The other adds more beds to homes

Your final mod add a general stores chest to certain location.

Hardly anything ground breaking or original. Do you think you would make money with that?

No you wont. You are just helping to drag down modding and are suffering from delusions of grandeur.

And just because I do not agree with you and entertain your greedy dreams does not make me a troll.

Ghatto wrote: What makes you think sites like this will survive should big business actually succeed in turning out paid mods?

Zaldiir wrote: There will always be games with free modding.

Ghatto wrote: True. That does however just throw away criticism of the games that don't.

bethjunkie wrote: Paid modding doesn't have to happen. Bethesda cannot sell what modders don't make. If the only way to share mods is by swapping cash through bethesda.net then I will not mod for Fallout 4.
I am not delusional enough to think my few thousand downloads for old games makes a difference in the grand scheme of things but if everyone who felt similarly did the same it might. Personally I feel there's a better chance at getting a third season of Jericho by flooding CBS with truckloads of nuts again than there is staving off paid mods permanently because of the damage the first go-round did to the community.

axonis wrote: I don't think that will happen. I feel that Bethesda knows that repeating TSR's mistake in controlling fan-made content with lawyers is very bad for business in the role playing genre.

But provide a platform where content authors can sell their creations if they wish to ? Yes, I think that's perfectly sensible. In the worst case, they could start selling their authoring software. I hope this won't happen, but even if it does, it won't be the end of the world.

phellen wrote:

axonis wrote: I don't think that will happen. I feel that Bethesda knows that repeating TSR's mistake in controlling fan-made content with lawyers is very bad for business in the role playing genre.

But provide a platform where content authors can sell their creations if they wish to ? Yes, I think that's perfectly sensible. In the worst case, they could start selling their authoring software. I hope this won't happen, but even if it does, it won't be the end of the world.

Taken from Bethesda.net, (regarding Fallout4)

"Early next year we’ll release for free the new Creation Kit for the PC. This is the same tool we use in the studio. You'll be able to create your own mods and share them with others. We’re especially excited these same mods will then be coming to Xbox One, and then PlayStation 4."

macintroll wrote: "We’re especially excited these same mods will then be coming to Xbox One, and then PlayStation 4."
Weird...Is it me or i see here a "Bethesda controlled" mods store?
I'm not a console user, so who can explain me How these mods will be Downloaded, installed and managed on a console ??
So far each console has his own included store (playstationstore, xbox store) does this mean mods will ONLY be downloaded from thoses stores ?

A step before paid mods ?
And what about the nexus ? can it be possible to make a nexus for consoles ??

Camonna Tong wrote: From what I understand, PC users can choose from the usual sites, and Steam Workshop. All of the console mods goes through Bethesda.net, which is where the modders will upload their mod if they wish it to be available through consoles. As of yet, I don't see them getting rid of Steam Workshop or anything. It was Valve after all that proposed the paid mod system.

Thing is, if they go to Bethesda.net with paid mods for Fallout 4 on PC, that would remove Valve's cut. Thus, Bethesda can give more to the modders that way, or keep more for themselves. Even going 50/50 Bethesda would get more than they would have with Valve.

Still, as I said, I highly doubt they will use Bethesda.net for PC modding. Since Steam workshop is through Steam, that is what makes it easy for mods on there. Unless Bethesda makes a DRM, or an app for all of this, it won't happen. They've already stated Bethesda.net isn't a DRM. Maybe with TES VI or something, but unless Bethesda pulls something out of nowhere, it's not going to happen now.

Arthmoor wrote: Console modding only being available via bethesda.net is likely to be a restriction insisted upon by the consoles themselves rather than something Bethesda decided on their own. If Microsoft and Sony let people download from arbitrary websites, then I guarantee you Bethesda wouldn't mind one bit if you got your console mods for free from Nexus or anywhere else.

As far as it being a "first step" toward paid modding, I say good. It would indicate Bethesda is being more cautious about it and planning things in smaller steps. Whatever they're up to, it's obvious they're building an infrastructure to handle file hosting and by the very nature of doing so they can integrate it with their own storefront to construct a pay site if they want to.

At the same time, keep in mind they're beginning to loosen their exclusivity arrangements on distribution of their older games with the move toward putting every TES game from Arena up to Morrowind on GoG. So they're broadening their horizons in what looks like an effort to at least partly break away from Steam. I have no doubt this was accelerated by Valve's careless attitude toward the paid mods site.

macintroll wrote: Thank you both, very instructive real facts, it confirm what I thought...

Camonna Tong wrote: Think they might go DRM-free again, Arthmoor? It's quite a bit easier for them to go through Steam alone though. Who knows, they might go like Witcher is, and have a Steam-tied purchase and a regular DRM-free purchase. I suppose they could do a DRM-free game, and have an app that will allow you to connect to Bethesda.net and so on. The game won't use that app to launch or anything, but you can choose to use that app alongside your game if you want. I guess you can say it would be like Bethesda's own mod manager, just with a browser interface. Still, I guess it's really to be determined.

Arthmoor wrote: If you had asked me that a month ago, I'd have said no. The move to put older TES games up on GoG changes everything though and I think they may be seriously considering reopening a DRM-free pathway for their games. If so, GoG is a natural fit for that. They just need to get more recent titles up before I'm fully convinced :P

If i may add something to this I'm mainly a Xbox user, but in the last few years started PC gaming because as a gift for my graduating High school i was given a Alienware laptop. i knew nothing of modding at the start ionly knew on PC it could be done legally, and did not know what to make of it, on console it is 100% illegal and will get your IP banded and account banned depending on the case, i want you all to know Console users have no bloody idea what mods mean, like what it truly means to be-able to mod you game, i tried explanation it to my best friends, at first they said there is not godly way it could be legal, and i showed them it was then they said oh well Bethesda is losing money, i showed them it just makes them money do to giving the game a long life, and finally they just said well i'm not going to do it because of ether one i'm only playing the game the way it was meant to be or well there will be virus on the mods and i don't want my stuff fracked up. my point is console users have no idea whats going on. they do not understand what this means or how to look at it, to some of them they think oh to i get to buy DLC form other people. the idea of payed mods was not great true, but i for one know how at least how Xbox players may react to this, if they find hey this is a really good mod like awesome better then dlc stuff they will want to give the author money, i bring that point up because console users do not think like PC users on this topic for them the idea of paying for mods may even seem normal i know that it will be done by Bethesda.net as for exactly how that anyone guess, just keep this in mind i could see the whole reason paid mods happened is because mods where coming to console. there where testing the water, the way i see it is there does need to be a good way for moders to get donations, if people think they did a great job and deserve money, they should have a easy way to do it, 2nd i do think at some point payed mods could be come real there will always be people who would see profit in something, and where there is one person there is scores of them, i could see whole teams making mods for the whole reason of making money, is it wrong of them to ask for money in exchange for their mod, well we can debate there forever, put there will be people willing to pay the money for it if the mod is good enough, if we don't like it we don't pay it, should there be away for us to give mod makers money for there hard work yes with out a doubt, now if Bethesda comes out and tells us they plan on making a way for use to give money directly to the mod author, good great we have a good way to do it, if they also say a mod author can know put a price tag ok, there are pros and cons to this, how many of each well i don't know, i can say at least two of each. int he end did payed mod fail yes it did, is it gone for good i don't think so, oh and on the payed mods the only thing i hated was how little of the money the author got, i feel they should have gotten at least 50% or more. and just to play devil's advocate, for payed mods to work someone need to play judge on if the mod is worth the money, and if it meet some kinda of quality standered. so for payed mods to work they need to be critiqued, and made sure the the buyer is not getting roped.

P.S. sorry this turn out longer then i thought i kinda rambled, and sorry for any spelling errors,

[simtam]

Funny. I did the same and I got endless results of "free" limited time only, give-away, special points trade system bullcrap websites. Where your "free" don't at all function like mods-of-old and is just like Steam inventory trading (which is something I remember Valve saying they might even try for Bethesda style modding). That or 'hacks' which can totally mess things up.

Not the same. Just search for "download counterstrike go skins", not "free counterstrike go skins".

 

But you may have a point after all - if a game is multiplayer with server managed by the game company, and the server enforces that sort of "anti-counterfeit measures", then they can corner the market, make artificial scarcity of free skins. Makes me glad I've never got hooked on that kind of multiplayer games.

 

[Fowldragon]

I remember months ago arguing here......I recently underwent surgery and nearly died twice...Life goes on...if we're lucky... So don't take anything for granted...good that there are people trying to get a couple bucks for those who mod...but this will end for everyone eventually. .thank those who deserve thanks ... pay them if you can afford it ... a minute from now it may not enter you mind and in 2 minutes it may never again...

 

if you mod...accept who you do it for and why...if its for money you picked the wrong game..

 

 

 

[Lamproly]

In response to post #28696634. #28698309 is also a reply to the same post.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Perhaps a better system would be a top 25 mods of the year. All donations are thrown into a pot and at the end of the year the top 25 mods are selected by how many endorsements they get. Then distribute the pot among the Mod creators in a tier system. Nexus could throw some money in as well since they are making money off of Modders. Youtubers who leech off of the modding community could also throw into the pot.

Making it a contest of sorts would circumvent the legal issues and be more fun for everyone. It would also stress quality modding over greed modding and those deserving would get rewarded. This would also keep a black market of pirated mods showing up.

macintroll wrote: And nothing for the 26th ?...:)

From those patreon website or similar It shows that donations are going more toward expected projects (people donate because they want the project to be finalized or want to support "something cool to come") They donate more for something they do not have in their hands (or computer) than donate for something they already have...( like a free mod )

technically speaking there are also other possibilities to look at.
For example in the software/shareware principles. Free access to the soft/mod, but either a reminder (you've been using this soft for XX month please consider a donation) or a limited access to all features like a software demo.
So people can use it at full capacities, test it and see if they "really" need it.
And only after a certain amount of time some donation or money could be asked.
But this is limiting and not very fun.

I've some days ago asked for a Ads payment system for mods, here on Nexus. (Similar to Youtube adsense ads, where the money goes to the youtuber)
So far Dark0ne reply telling me : It would cost money to put this in place on the website...and modders will not earn a lot...err.. well, it should be more studied in my opinion (let's do some maths), but they will for sure make more money than currently.
And this is 100% legal as the mod is still free and payment is not directly linked to the mod itself.

Payments would also be in correlation with popularity (pages views - ads clicks and views) and mods 100% free for everyone.
Donations could still be used (or improved?)
but i think it's the most unused button on this site ^^

Of course ads are annoying, but at least the content is completely free.
The biggest internet companies are all making fortunes with ads and give access to content for free (think google services or facebook) and here too, 99% incomes of nexus sites are from ads, contents are ..ofc free.
So when looking elsewhere we can see : it works.

Only Really appreciated/used/endorsed mods can earn some money (the ones which deserve it).The little under-endorsed mod will not obvisously.

We all must understand that paid mods are coming, either we like it or not. I'd prefer mods to stay free, a middle way to find ? but the decisions are not ours, once it will be here, for sure 90% of "big" mods will be paid mods.

Modding will no more just be a "hobby" but real independent & paid work (for the best ones obv).

There is a large amount of cash to be made with this and big gaming companies are currently just looking to find the good way to make new revenues. (Mods going to consoles is for sure the first step in this direction, toward a public used to pay for any little bit of code provided, people far less reluctant to jump in the paid mod train, further more because it's new for them)

BTW I always find fun how people against paid mod are all for some "donation" system and nothing else.
Well they probably also expect "the others" will donate ... ^^

@MrJoseCuervo
Then you have an unfair system like in the music industry, where more or less exactly this system is already executed. That means if Justin Bieber and Eminem are well known and get the big stages, my money goes to them instead of the small irish folk band I intended it to go to.
It makes the big ones grow and leaves the small ones with nothing.
I researched about the system in university and didn't manage to find a single positive point about it. Nice idea, but in result unjust. :/ Edited September 15, 2015 by Lamproly

[contrasia]

Seems like a misunderstanding between the two communities to me.

 

Mods feel hurt because Users are now telling them to stop making mods if they want to be paid for them. Mods are upset by this for good reason and tell users that for the amount of work and effort involved, they should get something back.

 

Users find out mods want money for their work, and this suddenly seems like a demand for cash rather than out of generosity. Donations are based entirely on the mood of the user, it's very fleeting and a weak form of income, it's charity. Feelings are fickle. Many would donate gladly from having such a great time from the mods, and with the button being visible enough they may even click it. It's a silent rule never to talk about it, because the moment you do it suddenly puts pressure on the user and makes it feel like they should do it out of obligation, which suddenly makes them less likely to do it. When it feels like effort, for something that is optional, all of a sudden the motivation or original intention vanishes. It's like seeing a bright rainbow, and rather than enjoying the scene deciding to try and catch it in a jar, and then watch it vanish as you try to get near it.

 

Users now feel like mods have become more demanding, and donations are now obligatory rather than based on how the user feels. From a users point of view, because of ignorance, they never expected or even thought that a mod could make a living based purely on modding. Many users believed that mods do it for experience, or to show off their skills to aid them in an interview, or (and the majority always believed this) because they wanted to better the community and enhance the game both for themselves and for everyone else. They're viewed like community or charity workers, they do it because they want to make peoples lives better, to make a difference, and to be thanked by the people they help without expecting much in return except appreciation.

 

This is obviously a flawed view, and many users are shocked and surprised. It's good that things have been brought to light, but now users feel like modders are telling them they "should" donate rather than leaving it up to the user, which make the very notion ever less likely.

 

If you want donations then make the button obvious, but don't talk about it.

If you want a more guaranteed form of income that's based less on something as fickle as the goodness as a persons feels at the time, then maybe a game or something might serve you better? Since the ToS of the majority of games are created so you can't make money off their product, setting it up in business form rather than charity is where the legal ground becomes shakey. Charity/donations is fine since it can't be linked directly to the mod/product, but directly asking for payment to gain x mod/product that modifies or enhances a game owned by another company is a breach in the ToS. The only way they'd make an exception is if they got a hefty cut, but then you're both misunderstanding where users of those mods come from.

 

The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take. You're not betting on the idea that the majority would, you're betting on the idea that there are enough people that benefit from your mod that a small % of them will give back over a prolonged period of time, making the effort worth it. It's always a gamble, never expect to win, anything you get back is a bonus. Microtransactions and Steam sales only work because the majority buy up so that tiny margin ends up becoming a lot, you're hoping for that tiny margin that's variable in both amount and %. It's never a good bet.

 

..... I have no idea what i'm talking about. I just pretend I do.

[Lamproly]

In response to post #28651299. #28652059, #28661619 are all replies on the same post.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

macintroll wrote: Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

bethjunkie wrote: I agree, DorkDiva. I wish we could go back to March before any of this happened. Every time another of these topics comes up, I die a little inside. Nobody's mind is ever changed.

But sticking to the subject of donations, I would be interested in donating if it could be completely anonymous. Money changing hands changes the relationship between modder/player and between friends and collaborators. I'd rather not even have a recipient know my username, much less my real name.

"Nobody's mind is ever changed."

I disagree. Mine has changed. And I guess the one of many.
The problem I see in this world is that too many are quick to criticize and too few to show appreciation. This is something I had to realize for myself, too, because you have to look beyond the border of what you see as granted.
The way via donation was existent on the Nexus but I never thought much about it. It's similar to the endorsements. If Nexus didn't remind me to give them I would forget it all the time. I was one culprit who wished for a more prominent system that is still kind enough to not pierce the user's eye ... a difficult task, and I appreciate the Nexus for asking our opinion and ideas.

PS: As far as I know donating already is completely anonymous. Edited September 15, 2015 by Lamproly

[contrasia]

In response to post #28651299. #28652059, #28661619, #28707844 are all replies on the same post.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

macintroll wrote: Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

bethjunkie wrote: I agree, DorkDiva. I wish we could go back to March before any of this happened. Every time another of these topics comes up, I die a little inside. Nobody's mind is ever changed.

But sticking to the subject of donations, I would be interested in donating if it could be completely anonymous. Money changing hands changes the relationship between modder/player and between friends and collaborators. I'd rather not even have a recipient know my username, much less my real name.

Lamproly wrote: "Nobody's mind is ever changed."

I disagree. Mine has changed. And I guess the one of many.
The problem I see in this world is that too many are quick to criticize and too few to show appreciation. This is something I had to realize for myself, too, because you have to look beyond the border of what you see as granted.
The way via donation was existent on the Nexus but I never thought much about it. It's similar to the endorsements. If Nexus didn't remind me to give them I would forget it all the time. I was one culprit who wished for a more prominent system that is still kind enough to not pierce the user's eye ... a difficult task, and I appreciate the Nexus for asking our opinion and ideas.

PS: As far as I know donating already is completely anonymous.

@Macintroll
Not greedy, just demanding. Ah the irony. A demand for donations rather than simply leaving it up to people to decide to donate. What a wonderful strategy. Edited September 15, 2015 by contrasia

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28707544.

contrasia wrote: Seems like a misunderstanding between the two communities to me.

Mods feel hurt because Users are now telling them to stop making mods if they want to be paid for them. Mods are upset by this for good reason and tell users that for the amount of work and effort involved, they should get something back.

Users find out mods want money for their work, and this suddenly seems like a demand for cash rather than out of generosity. Donations are based entirely on the mood of the user, it's very fleeting and a weak form of income, it's charity. Feelings are fickle. Many would donate gladly from having such a great time from the mods, and with the button being visible enough they may even click it. It's a silent rule never to talk about it, because the moment you do it suddenly puts pressure on the user and makes it feel like they should do it out of obligation, which suddenly makes them less likely to do it. When it feels like effort, for something that is optional, all of a sudden the motivation or original intention vanishes. It's like seeing a bright rainbow, and rather than enjoying the scene deciding to try and catch it in a jar, and then watch it vanish as you try to get near it.

Users now feel like mods have become more demanding, and donations are now obligatory rather than based on how the user feels. From a users point of view, because of ignorance, they never expected or even thought that a mod could make a living based purely on modding. Many users believed that mods do it for experience, or to show off their skills to aid them in an interview, or (and the majority always believed this) because they wanted to better the community and enhance the game both for themselves and for everyone else. They're viewed like community or charity workers, they do it because they want to make peoples lives better, to make a difference, and to be thanked by the people they help without expecting much in return except appreciation.

This is obviously a flawed view, and many users are shocked and surprised. It's good that things have been brought to light, but now users feel like modders are telling them they "should" donate rather than leaving it up to the user, which make the very notion ever less likely.

If you want donations then make the button obvious, but don't talk about it.
If you want a more guaranteed form of income that's based less on something as fickle as the goodness as a persons feels at the time, then maybe a game or something might serve you better? Since the ToS of the majority of games are created so you can't make money off their product, setting it up in business form rather than charity is where the legal ground becomes shakey. Charity/donations is fine since it can't be linked directly to the mod/product, but directly asking for payment to gain x mod/product that modifies or enhances a game owned by another company is a breach in the ToS. The only way they'd make an exception is if they got a hefty cut, but then you're both misunderstanding where users of those mods come from.

The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take. You're not betting on the idea that the majority would, you're betting on the idea that there are enough people that benefit from your mod that a small % of them will give back over a prolonged period of time, making the effort worth it. It's always a gamble, never expect to win, anything you get back is a bonus. Microtransactions and Steam sales only work because the majority buy up so that tiny margin ends up becoming a lot, you're hoping for that tiny margin that's variable in both amount and %. It's never a good bet.

..... I have no idea what i'm talking about. I just pretend I do.

"The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take."

This is an interesting line actually. I do think that this is one of ideals that allowed the fighting to get so intense. By that I mean I never thought of myself or other mod-users are 'taking', and I think most don't.
I know modders definitely would appreciate a 'giving back' and that would intensify when they encountered users who complained about their work or unreasonably demanded changes or support.
But they were never required to 'give back,' because they never 'took'. Once a mod was published it was 'just there' unlimited in the way of downloads (ignoring server costs that this site does ask for money). It's a lot like my community council building a park down the road, I can appreciate it without payment as part of the collective public, or I can be a contributor in order to support its development.