Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28720339.

simtam wrote:

 

We must have different google results (they do that to make more ad money).

You know, I tried out Bing and it delivers number one result that gamebanana website on "free counterstrike go skins" query as well.

 

But it's also possible that for competiive multiplayers games only "blessed" skins are allowed to avoid cheating (I imagine mods making walls translucent), and that's another way to curb fully free game modificiations.

Mmmm. Yeah that website shows some of the same (paid) skins as directly in-game. Or stuff that works on custom servers (thank god that's still allowed). To me that's only half-way there, but I've made it clear in these posts that I'm hard to please.

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28707544. #28708344, #28711854 are all replies on the same post.

contrasia wrote: Seems like a misunderstanding between the two communities to me.

Mods feel hurt because Users are now telling them to stop making mods if they want to be paid for them. Mods are upset by this for good reason and tell users that for the amount of work and effort involved, they should get something back.

Users find out mods want money for their work, and this suddenly seems like a demand for cash rather than out of generosity. Donations are based entirely on the mood of the user, it's very fleeting and a weak form of income, it's charity. Feelings are fickle. Many would donate gladly from having such a great time from the mods, and with the button being visible enough they may even click it. It's a silent rule never to talk about it, because the moment you do it suddenly puts pressure on the user and makes it feel like they should do it out of obligation, which suddenly makes them less likely to do it. When it feels like effort, for something that is optional, all of a sudden the motivation or original intention vanishes. It's like seeing a bright rainbow, and rather than enjoying the scene deciding to try and catch it in a jar, and then watch it vanish as you try to get near it.

Users now feel like mods have become more demanding, and donations are now obligatory rather than based on how the user feels. From a users point of view, because of ignorance, they never expected or even thought that a mod could make a living based purely on modding. Many users believed that mods do it for experience, or to show off their skills to aid them in an interview, or (and the majority always believed this) because they wanted to better the community and enhance the game both for themselves and for everyone else. They're viewed like community or charity workers, they do it because they want to make peoples lives better, to make a difference, and to be thanked by the people they help without expecting much in return except appreciation.

This is obviously a flawed view, and many users are shocked and surprised. It's good that things have been brought to light, but now users feel like modders are telling them they "should" donate rather than leaving it up to the user, which make the very notion ever less likely.

If you want donations then make the button obvious, but don't talk about it.
If you want a more guaranteed form of income that's based less on something as fickle as the goodness as a persons feels at the time, then maybe a game or something might serve you better? Since the ToS of the majority of games are created so you can't make money off their product, setting it up in business form rather than charity is where the legal ground becomes shakey. Charity/donations is fine since it can't be linked directly to the mod/product, but directly asking for payment to gain x mod/product that modifies or enhances a game owned by another company is a breach in the ToS. The only way they'd make an exception is if they got a hefty cut, but then you're both misunderstanding where users of those mods come from.

The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take. You're not betting on the idea that the majority would, you're betting on the idea that there are enough people that benefit from your mod that a small % of them will give back over a prolonged period of time, making the effort worth it. It's always a gamble, never expect to win, anything you get back is a bonus. Microtransactions and Steam sales only work because the majority buy up so that tiny margin ends up becoming a lot, you're hoping for that tiny margin that's variable in both amount and %. It's never a good bet.

..... I have no idea what i'm talking about. I just pretend I do.

Ghatto wrote: "The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take."

This is an interesting line actually. I do think that this is one of ideals that allowed the fighting to get so intense. By that I mean I never thought of myself or other mod-users are 'taking', and I think most don't.
I know modders definitely would appreciate a 'giving back' and that would intensify when they encountered users who complained about their work or unreasonably demanded changes or support.
But they were never required to 'give back,' because they never 'took'. Once a mod was published it was 'just there' unlimited in the way of downloads (ignoring server costs that this site does ask for money). It's a lot like my community council building a park down the road, I can appreciate it without payment as part of the collective public, or I can be a contributor in order to support its development.

macintroll wrote: haha, Your car park has been made with your taxes ^^ so you contributed.

I thought people would try that retort.

The important difference is that there's several degrees removal from the transaction. If my taxes did pay for the park I didn't want, it's because someone else is spending money I already wanted to provide. Similarly if you modders are on unemployment or work a non-modding related job that I would somehow service then I've also already paid for it.
Regardless I can always from that point forward enter and enjoy the park whether I wanted it or not and that's important because I can not be seen as someone 'taking advantage of' something freely available.

If you want to be more specific then paid mods is a park with a paid entry. Just don't get mad if I don't want to enter based solely on the fact that I've enjoyed free entry before.
I mean maybe a free cupcake stand is a better analogy:
You bake cupcakes and set up a stand saying "Please help yourself." Am I entitled to one? DO I deserve one? No not really but they're offered so I may have one. So even though I know you put effort into making them, nobody owes anybody anything because the offer was just there, I mean yeah a 'Thank you' (endorsement) may be nice but money hasn't happened until...
Next day you set up the same stand and charge $1 per cupcake. I remark that I miss the free ones and probably won't buy these ones. You get so mad and accuse me of "Just taking and taking and never giving back" even though that wasn't the original offer.
FIghting ensues.

[Tantalus010]

In response to post #28725129.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

 

In response to post #28722879.

CaughtInTheCrossfire wrote: If a mod author wants to charge for a mod that they've made and there is a platform available for them to do it legally, then I won't hold that against them.

However, I will never pay for a mod. I just won't. Nor will I ever charge for a mod that I make. So long as those of us who believe in free modding are able to get together and do our own thing, I'm happy.

I believe in choice. So I'm only going to get up in arms if it gets to the point where the only mods you can use are the paid ones and the only place to get them is through the official platform. But, by the time that happens, I'll probably already be too jaded and cynical that I'll already have quit gaming.

Now this is well said, and spot on. It's all about the choice. I'm glad at least someone gets it. :smile:

 

 

Well Sprked.com is still up and running, so it looks like that choice is now ours to take??

Oh, give it time. If what Robin says here is true, Sprked.com will either be shut down or bought by Bethesda in relatively short order.

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28715649.

simtam wrote:

That's rather pessimistic point of view, Ghatto. Noone really knows what TES modding would look like if it was paid allowed long time ago. In April they pulled the plug out too fast to make any prediction from that small campaign. And in somewhat related field, writing genre prose, we used to have published books and free zins, then e-books plaftorms came and I didn't notice people arguing against it as you are against paid game mods.

Apples and Oranges.

With books you either buy a whole book or get an ebook for your device. Yeah you have to buy a device first like I need a computer to play Skyrim. But unlike Skyrim I don't need to buy a book to then buy add-on chapters (mods). Paid fan-fiction is likely a better example, but like this situation, appears to be as highly contested (some types are allowed to be published for money and others not).

I have different memories. While the advent of ebooks is definitely good, I remember a lot of the publishing and writing community having conflict over how it would be done.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

In response to post #28651299. #28652059, #28661619, #28707844, #28708009, #28711714, #28713009, #28718154 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

 

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

 

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

 

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

 

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

macintroll wrote: Damn, open your eyes,

Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

 

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

 

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)

Bethesda himself make money

- selling more games for a longer time period.

- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.

And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

 

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

 

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

bethjunkie wrote: I agree, DorkDiva. I wish we could go back to March before any of this happened. Every time another of these topics comes up, I die a little inside. Nobody's mind is ever changed.

 

But sticking to the subject of donations, I would be interested in donating if it could be completely anonymous. Money changing hands changes the relationship between modder/player and between friends and collaborators. I'd rather not even have a recipient know my username, much less my real name.

Lamproly wrote: "Nobody's mind is ever changed."

 

I disagree. Mine has changed. And I guess the one of many.

The problem I see in this world is that too many are quick to criticize and too few to show appreciation. This is something I had to realize for myself, too, because you have to look beyond the border of what you see as granted.

The way via donation was existent on the Nexus but I never thought much about it. It's similar to the endorsements. If Nexus didn't remind me to give them I would forget it all the time. I was one culprit who wished for a more prominent system that is still kind enough to not pierce the user's eye ... a difficult task, and I appreciate the Nexus for asking our opinion and ideas.

 

PS: As far as I know donating already is completely anonymous.

contrasia wrote: @Macintroll

Not greedy, just demanding. Ah the irony. A demand for donations rather than simply leaving it up to people to decide to donate. What a wonderful strategy.

macintroll wrote: @contrasia

My point was to show that there is already a market, an ecosystem around free mods.

And the only ones who are not allowed to take a place in this market are the modders themselves. that's what i call irony.

bethjunkie wrote: @Lamproly- No, donating is not completely anonymous. Both the donor and recipient see each other's real name and email address which is a no go for many people.

FishBiter wrote: DorkDiva. You're not helping when you characterize it as "crying".

 

Also, who are you to tell modders why they should mod.

@macintroll Modding isn't a job. Maybe go make YouTube videos if you want to make money? Or work for Bethesda or some other dev if you think your mods are worth money? That's what jobs are for.

Charging for mods is a great way to destroy PC gaming since building a PC that can run console games costs double the price or more of a console, and people build these expensive PC's to mod. PC gaming is just getting popular and now you want to destroy it out of greed.

I mod many games with many many mods, and I'd have to pay thousands if those mods cost money. Do you understand? Most people don't have the money to buy all these mods. Payed mods would completely screw over everyone and send most people back to consoles. That means there would be way less games on PC if there's no good money to be had.

 

You're thinking selfishly about how YOU can make money from your couple of mods without a care of anyone else. That's greedy and selfish. I've donated occasionally and am even considering a $15 monthly donation sub for SWGEmu or Warhammer Online private servers, but forcing people to pay for hundreds for mods forever is just rotten and hateful.

 

 

Aren't you just a little ray of sunshine.

 

If someone can provide a service or product (ie supply a need which is the basis of our economic system) and it is legally permitted to do so...they have the talent to provide the service-why the h-e-double toothpicks are they greedy or selfish? Because YOU decided it was so. My Mother crochet for years and years, giving away her hobbies to friends and family-even when she was stealing sugar packets from places to eat. At the end of her life some people offered to help her sell some and she did. Was she then selfish and greedy?

 

Maybe if someone make 25 recolors of a vanilla armor and charges 50 bucks a pop, that might be greedy or selfish. Not what the majority of mod authors think. The biggest way to speak is with your pocketbook. Don't buy mods from all those greedy folks.

 

This is what I am talking about. Calling people, whom you have likely never met nor know nothing of their circumstance, calling them greedy and selfish-those that have shared their skills and work (yes-for free) for years and years in some cases. If they were like they are being called-greedy and selfish and rotten and hateful-this place and the 75K mods on here would not exist.

Shame on you. You can disagree with something or someone without calling them names.

[Tantalus010]

My positions on this haven't changed. Bethesda doesn't deserve a dime from a user-made mod. It's like a paintbrush manufacturer demanding a cut of the profits of every painting made with one of their brushes. It's absolutely absurd. If, on the other hand, Bethesda wanted to start charging for their paintbrushes (i.e. the CK), I would support that if the price were reasonable. I don't use the CK as much as I used to, but I'd probably still buy it for Fallout 4 (assuming Bethesda doesn't also try to skim an undeserved cut from mods on top of that).

 

Because of my position there, the last few paragraphs of this post are very troubling for me. If Bethesda intends to make it so that mod authors can only make money from their mods on Bethesda.net, where Bethesda can skim from them, we're going to be right back where we were four months ago in very short order. Seems like Bethesda didn't learn a damn thing from all that.

[macintroll]

In response to post #28651299. #28652059, #28661619, #28707844, #28708009, #28711714, #28713009, #28718154, #28727284 are all replies on the same post.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

macintroll wrote: Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

bethjunkie wrote: I agree, DorkDiva. I wish we could go back to March before any of this happened. Every time another of these topics comes up, I die a little inside. Nobody's mind is ever changed.

But sticking to the subject of donations, I would be interested in donating if it could be completely anonymous. Money changing hands changes the relationship between modder/player and between friends and collaborators. I'd rather not even have a recipient know my username, much less my real name.

Lamproly wrote: "Nobody's mind is ever changed."

I disagree. Mine has changed. And I guess the one of many.
The problem I see in this world is that too many are quick to criticize and too few to show appreciation. This is something I had to realize for myself, too, because you have to look beyond the border of what you see as granted.
The way via donation was existent on the Nexus but I never thought much about it. It's similar to the endorsements. If Nexus didn't remind me to give them I would forget it all the time. I was one culprit who wished for a more prominent system that is still kind enough to not pierce the user's eye ... a difficult task, and I appreciate the Nexus for asking our opinion and ideas.

PS: As far as I know donating already is completely anonymous.

contrasia wrote: @Macintroll
Not greedy, just demanding. Ah the irony. A demand for donations rather than simply leaving it up to people to decide to donate. What a wonderful strategy.

macintroll wrote: @contrasia
My point was to show that there is already a market, an ecosystem around free mods.
And the only ones who are not allowed to take a place in this market are the modders themselves. that's what i call irony.

bethjunkie wrote: @Lamproly- No, donating is not completely anonymous. Both the donor and recipient see each other's real name and email address which is a no go for many people.

FishBiter wrote: DorkDiva. You're not helping when you characterize it as "crying".

Also, who are you to tell modders why they should mod.

Totalstupidity wrote: @macintroll Modding isn't a job. Maybe go make YouTube videos if you want to make money? Or work for Bethesda or some other dev if you think your mods are worth money? That's what jobs are for.
Charging for mods is a great way to destroy PC gaming since building a PC that can run console games costs double the price or more of a console, and people build these expensive PC's to mod. PC gaming is just getting popular and now you want to destroy it out of greed.
I mod many games with many many mods, and I'd have to pay thousands if those mods cost money. Do you understand? Most people don't have the money to buy all these mods. Payed mods would completely screw over everyone and send most people back to consoles. That means there would be way less games on PC if there's no good money to be had.

You're thinking selfishly about how YOU can make money from your couple of mods without a care of anyone else. That's greedy and selfish. I've donated occasionally and am even considering a $15 monthly donation sub for SWGEmu or Warhammer Online private servers, but forcing people to pay for hundreds for mods forever is just rotten and hateful.

@Totalstupidity : Man please learn to read, i'm speaking about FREE mods.. not paid mods.

And if you read more of the things i said here in this thread, you could perhaps understand that i'm not in favor of Paid mods, i'm also a mod user, so paid mods will bother me too.
(but i'm pretty sure this will happen again).

I'm in favor of a similar concept than youtube ads payment, here ,on Nexus for mods. To have free mods and some sort of "retribution" to modders and stick them here. But nobody's care, even if mods can stay free this way.
So let's stay like we are, do not move a little finger, and just wait to be eaten by the big fish. If that's your only solution, great.

The choice about paid mods or not is not in our hands, this is coming and either some solutions will have to be found, either site like this one will DIE.
And rants over modders is not the solution.

So i'm done speaking with people who's sight is so low they don't even understand what's going on in this industry.

[Adriyla]

I would really like to donnate some money to the modder's, but i don't really have enough to do so. Because i'm still in high school and that my familly isn't that rich at all.

[cascadesbiker]

I think mod authors developing new mods could make the donation system more like a kickstarter program for games and other projects and somehow give the person donating more input on developing the mod or something virtual in the mod. This would be a carrot to entice people to donate. I dont know if this system will work too good on older games now like Skyrim but perhaps on new games this might work.

[Thandal]

"Making it more like Kickstarter", and "giv[ing] the person donating more input" is exactly the kind of behaviour that the game publishers won't allow unless they get a cut, (which is called "entering into a contractual relationship".) Once modding turns into a "real business", it's subject to all the rules of real businesses, including those pesky ones about ownership of IP and who can make money from it.