Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28705769.

simtam wrote:

Funny. I did the same and I got endless results of "free" limited time only, give-away, special points trade system bullcrap websites. Where your "free" don't at all function like mods-of-old and is just like Steam inventory trading (which is something I remember Valve saying they might even try for Bethesda style modding). That or 'hacks' which can totally mess things up.

Not the same. Just search for "download counterstrike go skins", not "free counterstrike go skins".

But you may have a point after all - if a game is multiplayer with server managed by the game company, and the server enforces that sort of "anti-counterfeit measures", then they can corner the market, make artificial scarcity of free skins. Makes me glad I've never got hooked on that kind of multiplayer games.

We must have different google results (they do that to make more ad money). I still don't find anything truly free as the way mods here are. I'll take your word for it, I only didn't believe you originally because my understanding of the game made what I want, and what you said, impossible!

I still play cause the game is fun, but I do lament the changes. Heck to me it's the same as gambling; I'm surprised Valve hasn't run afoul of some countries laws on that. Although it's similar to the 'ok' way of rare cards in trading card games like Magic.

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28683919. #28688649, #28700574, #28701439 are all replies on the same post.

CandyGrl24 wrote: Ok, let's talk frankly. 70 percent of all existing today mods are rubbish (especially for Skyrim). Why? Because people, who can create a good product, do not want to work for free. Why should they?
Just because you want it? Open your eyes, guys.

About ideas... We can not sell mods, but we can sell models — it is our right and nobody can prevent. Think about it.

Ghatto wrote: False Correlation.
Just because some modders say they'll make more quality mods when paid does not mean it will be the same for everyone.

Just look at Mobile App Stores and the glut of crap on them; a perfect example of what will still happen when money's left on the table.

CandyGrl24 wrote: If you do not understand simple things and do not want to look beyond, it is only your problem. I can also provide examples, but i do not want to waste my time arguing with you.

macintroll wrote: I agree with CandyGrl24 :
Ghatto, you stay in the idea the modders will be exactly the same ones as now.
But,
if mods can be sold (and we saw there is a market), this will attract also professionals to this "specific niche".
Many indy dev, small companies and semi-pro teams can be interested in creating mods for an existing game, benefit from it's reputation, add new content, stories or gameplay, all this would be easier than creating whole games from scratch and trying to sell them without a proper communication budget.

Ofc there will also be crappy mods, but almost nobody's would buy/rate them (like bad mobile apps)
We can decently imagine the general quality level will increase.

Well CandyGirl 24, you're the one that made a absolute statement, a conclusion you found and then attributed to the entire set without thorough testing. Then you made a post claiming that the 'frank' version of the talk, or the one with 'opened eyes' was one where you were right.

Yes I know you can provide examples, I know there was many modders who said they'd make more or better mods with paid income. I can also provide examples of modders who said the exact opposite so what is correct for the whole modding community? Are good mods only really made by full-time professionals, and rubbish mods made by poor people on toasters?
The true answer is: it depends.

I suppose I'll never find out though since your time is so precious you don't want to spend it defending your argument.

Macintroll,
Professionals made Skyrim. They did pretty good, made a huge cool game we all love that was malleable enough to end up being modded this much.
They also left a tonne of bugs and created gameplay many people have criticised as boring, and a world that's criticised as empty. Now there's a whole lot of 'essential' mods made by 'hobbyists' that for a lot of us actually turn Skyrim into the game we all want it to be.
In my mind, professionals are the devs and are no guarantee for quality. The hobbysist are modders and are also no guarantee for quality. The difference is that one was paid to make something and the other was not, so but once again the money didn't guarantee quality.

The number one thing I like about the current way of doing things though is that somebody must bankroll a full game or DLC before selling it, that people will get paid for their work BEFORE they are thrown to customers. Now unless the user wants to wilfully participate in some Kickstarter/Early Access thing, the morals have been cleared, and only payment for perceived quality remains. Nobody gets to complain that their blood/sweat/tears were not appreciated and users (hopefully) can get what they pay for.

Paid-modding threw that out the window. We were responsible now for quality, for not being ripped-off and for feeling sooooooo guilty when we didn't want to buy XYZ mods.

Truly if we and Bethesda believes that awesome modders when paid, will create the most amazing DLC size super content then they should put their money where their mouth is and HIRE these modders to make new DLC. Or failing that - actually open the store featuring it! I was flabbergasted that this brave new venture actually opened with only collection of mostly iffy mods rather than super shiny "endorsed by Bethesda" mods that we just couldn't resist.

[lFostelR]

"blah blah blah...

 

 

Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

 

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job."

 

Want free content? Make it yourself.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

 

 

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28707544.

 

 

 

contrasia wrote: Seems like a misunderstanding between the two communities to me.

 

Mods feel hurt because Users are now telling them to stop making mods if they want to be paid for them. Mods are upset by this for good reason and tell users that for the amount of work and effort involved, they should get something back.

 

Users find out mods want money for their work, and this suddenly seems like a demand for cash rather than out of generosity. Donations are based entirely on the mood of the user, it's very fleeting and a weak form of income, it's charity. Feelings are fickle. Many would donate gladly from having such a great time from the mods, and with the button being visible enough they may even click it. It's a silent rule never to talk about it, because the moment you do it suddenly puts pressure on the user and makes it feel like they should do it out of obligation, which suddenly makes them less likely to do it. When it feels like effort, for something that is optional, all of a sudden the motivation or original intention vanishes. It's like seeing a bright rainbow, and rather than enjoying the scene deciding to try and catch it in a jar, and then watch it vanish as you try to get near it.

 

Users now feel like mods have become more demanding, and donations are now obligatory rather than based on how the user feels. From a users point of view, because of ignorance, they never expected or even thought that a mod could make a living based purely on modding. Many users believed that mods do it for experience, or to show off their skills to aid them in an interview, or (and the majority always believed this) because they wanted to better the community and enhance the game both for themselves and for everyone else. They're viewed like community or charity workers, they do it because they want to make peoples lives better, to make a difference, and to be thanked by the people they help without expecting much in return except appreciation.

 

This is obviously a flawed view, and many users are shocked and surprised. It's good that things have been brought to light, but now users feel like modders are telling them they "should" donate rather than leaving it up to the user, which make the very notion ever less likely.

 

If you want donations then make the button obvious, but don't talk about it.

If you want a more guaranteed form of income that's based less on something as fickle as the goodness as a persons feels at the time, then maybe a game or something might serve you better? Since the ToS of the majority of games are created so you can't make money off their product, setting it up in business form rather than charity is where the legal ground becomes shakey. Charity/donations is fine since it can't be linked directly to the mod/product, but directly asking for payment to gain x mod/product that modifies or enhances a game owned by another company is a breach in the ToS. The only way they'd make an exception is if they got a hefty cut, but then you're both misunderstanding where users of those mods come from.

 

The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take. You're not betting on the idea that the majority would, you're betting on the idea that there are enough people that benefit from your mod that a small % of them will give back over a prolonged period of time, making the effort worth it. It's always a gamble, never expect to win, anything you get back is a bonus. Microtransactions and Steam sales only work because the majority buy up so that tiny margin ends up becoming a lot, you're hoping for that tiny margin that's variable in both amount and %. It's never a good bet.

 

..... I have no idea what i'm talking about. I just pretend I do.

"The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take."

 

This is an interesting line actually. I do think that this is one of ideals that allowed the fighting to get so intense. By that I mean I never thought of myself or other mod-users are 'taking', and I think most don't.

I know modders definitely would appreciate a 'giving back' and that would intensify when they encountered users who complained about their work or unreasonably demanded changes or support.

But they were never required to 'give back,' because they never 'took'. Once a mod was published it was 'just there' unlimited in the way of downloads (ignoring server costs that this site does ask for money). It's a lot like my community council building a park down the road, I can appreciate it without payment as part of the collective public, or I can be a contributor in order to support its development.

 

 

I think you are tapping into something that needs to be scrutinised more. It begs the question as to why has this situation arisen in the first place. The answer to this isn't easy and the way to overcome it is no easier.

 

I think, from studying recent events and comparing it to other industries, that it boils down to two things, automation and deficits:

 

Automation - Modding as a hobby is being transformed by the changes to the gaming industry both as purely an entertainment source and increasingly as a shift in the way humans interact with the world. The full impact and implications of the developing virtual world is not appreciated by the wider public, partly because it is quite subtle but also because the creation of tools and technology in order to shape the world for our needs has become very instinctual. In a nutshell: Farmville? You ain't seen nothing yet!

 

Deficits - This kind of feeds off the back of the above but also has other factors that drive it forward. By deficit it implies that there has been something removed and is needing to be filled with something else. What has been removed? Well its complex but the nub of it is the traditional structures around employment (includes gaming and most other jobs too). Let me explain:

 

1. As I stated, automation obviously comes into play here, for example the number of people and cost of creating a website these days compared to 10-15 years ago has dropped significantly. A few clicks and away we go, compared to having to actually learn HTML and PHP, so companies have time to find new ecosystems to venture into. The 'means to the end' is becoming automated (or "entitled" is a popular word) and so the processes, work and result is increasingly displaced.

2. The goal posts have moved, traditional avenues of a career (going to school, learning a wide curriculum, gaining experience, finding your creative side and finding that perfect job) is increasingly rare and drying up because its highly expensive to cater to everyone, and technology is replacing these systems anyway. Becoming the kind of game developer we dream of being is brutally hard. The answer from companies and economies faced with tough margins is to go lateral, and this can open doors, but depends on the other results and factors of automation and deficit...

 

... These other factors and results are that the regulatory, social and welfare systems that generations have assumed as guaranteed and promote, are becoming obsolete. This in itself is not necessarily bad if it is replaced with another system, but it isn't for most, there is a deficit, not only in fiscal terms but also in the education and support for many people on how to cope with this change, with an increasing methodology of progress through profit driven mechanisms. A need to know culture, if you will.

 

Basically the luxury and love of playing and modding games can be easily manipulated with a fistful of cash. It is wise to be wary that there are fewer safety nets in the emerging world of virtual and lateral employment and that wad of cash will have to pay for more and more. If there is paid-modding, as it certainly seems there will be, it needs to address these issues if it is not to become ever more exclusive. Modding to make money, costs money.

[macintroll]

In response to post #28651299. #28652059, #28661619, #28707844, #28708009 are all replies on the same post.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

macintroll wrote: Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

bethjunkie wrote: I agree, DorkDiva. I wish we could go back to March before any of this happened. Every time another of these topics comes up, I die a little inside. Nobody's mind is ever changed.

But sticking to the subject of donations, I would be interested in donating if it could be completely anonymous. Money changing hands changes the relationship between modder/player and between friends and collaborators. I'd rather not even have a recipient know my username, much less my real name.

Lamproly wrote: "Nobody's mind is ever changed."

I disagree. Mine has changed. And I guess the one of many.
The problem I see in this world is that too many are quick to criticize and too few to show appreciation. This is something I had to realize for myself, too, because you have to look beyond the border of what you see as granted.
The way via donation was existent on the Nexus but I never thought much about it. It's similar to the endorsements. If Nexus didn't remind me to give them I would forget it all the time. I was one culprit who wished for a more prominent system that is still kind enough to not pierce the user's eye ... a difficult task, and I appreciate the Nexus for asking our opinion and ideas.

PS: As far as I know donating already is completely anonymous.

contrasia wrote: @Macintroll
Not greedy, just demanding. Ah the irony. A demand for donations rather than simply leaving it up to people to decide to donate. What a wonderful strategy.

@contrasia
My point was to show that there is already a market, an ecosystem around free mods.
And the only ones who are not allowed to take a place in this market are the modders themselves. that's what i call irony.

[macintroll]

In response to post #28707544. #28708344 is also a reply to the same post.

contrasia wrote: Seems like a misunderstanding between the two communities to me.

Mods feel hurt because Users are now telling them to stop making mods if they want to be paid for them. Mods are upset by this for good reason and tell users that for the amount of work and effort involved, they should get something back.

Users find out mods want money for their work, and this suddenly seems like a demand for cash rather than out of generosity. Donations are based entirely on the mood of the user, it's very fleeting and a weak form of income, it's charity. Feelings are fickle. Many would donate gladly from having such a great time from the mods, and with the button being visible enough they may even click it. It's a silent rule never to talk about it, because the moment you do it suddenly puts pressure on the user and makes it feel like they should do it out of obligation, which suddenly makes them less likely to do it. When it feels like effort, for something that is optional, all of a sudden the motivation or original intention vanishes. It's like seeing a bright rainbow, and rather than enjoying the scene deciding to try and catch it in a jar, and then watch it vanish as you try to get near it.

Users now feel like mods have become more demanding, and donations are now obligatory rather than based on how the user feels. From a users point of view, because of ignorance, they never expected or even thought that a mod could make a living based purely on modding. Many users believed that mods do it for experience, or to show off their skills to aid them in an interview, or (and the majority always believed this) because they wanted to better the community and enhance the game both for themselves and for everyone else. They're viewed like community or charity workers, they do it because they want to make peoples lives better, to make a difference, and to be thanked by the people they help without expecting much in return except appreciation.

This is obviously a flawed view, and many users are shocked and surprised. It's good that things have been brought to light, but now users feel like modders are telling them they "should" donate rather than leaving it up to the user, which make the very notion ever less likely.

If you want donations then make the button obvious, but don't talk about it.
If you want a more guaranteed form of income that's based less on something as fickle as the goodness as a persons feels at the time, then maybe a game or something might serve you better? Since the ToS of the majority of games are created so you can't make money off their product, setting it up in business form rather than charity is where the legal ground becomes shakey. Charity/donations is fine since it can't be linked directly to the mod/product, but directly asking for payment to gain x mod/product that modifies or enhances a game owned by another company is a breach in the ToS. The only way they'd make an exception is if they got a hefty cut, but then you're both misunderstanding where users of those mods come from.

The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take. You're not betting on the idea that the majority would, you're betting on the idea that there are enough people that benefit from your mod that a small % of them will give back over a prolonged period of time, making the effort worth it. It's always a gamble, never expect to win, anything you get back is a bonus. Microtransactions and Steam sales only work because the majority buy up so that tiny margin ends up becoming a lot, you're hoping for that tiny margin that's variable in both amount and %. It's never a good bet.

..... I have no idea what i'm talking about. I just pretend I do.

Ghatto wrote: "The cold truth is most users will never give back and will always take."

This is an interesting line actually. I do think that this is one of ideals that allowed the fighting to get so intense. By that I mean I never thought of myself or other mod-users are 'taking', and I think most don't.
I know modders definitely would appreciate a 'giving back' and that would intensify when they encountered users who complained about their work or unreasonably demanded changes or support.
But they were never required to 'give back,' because they never 'took'. Once a mod was published it was 'just there' unlimited in the way of downloads (ignoring server costs that this site does ask for money). It's a lot like my community council building a park down the road, I can appreciate it without payment as part of the collective public, or I can be a contributor in order to support its development.

haha, Your car park has been made with your taxes ^^ so you contributed.

[bethjunkie]

In response to post #28651299. #28652059, #28661619, #28707844, #28708009, #28711714 are all replies on the same post.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

macintroll wrote: Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

bethjunkie wrote: I agree, DorkDiva. I wish we could go back to March before any of this happened. Every time another of these topics comes up, I die a little inside. Nobody's mind is ever changed.

But sticking to the subject of donations, I would be interested in donating if it could be completely anonymous. Money changing hands changes the relationship between modder/player and between friends and collaborators. I'd rather not even have a recipient know my username, much less my real name.

Lamproly wrote: "Nobody's mind is ever changed."

I disagree. Mine has changed. And I guess the one of many.
The problem I see in this world is that too many are quick to criticize and too few to show appreciation. This is something I had to realize for myself, too, because you have to look beyond the border of what you see as granted.
The way via donation was existent on the Nexus but I never thought much about it. It's similar to the endorsements. If Nexus didn't remind me to give them I would forget it all the time. I was one culprit who wished for a more prominent system that is still kind enough to not pierce the user's eye ... a difficult task, and I appreciate the Nexus for asking our opinion and ideas.

PS: As far as I know donating already is completely anonymous.

contrasia wrote: @Macintroll
Not greedy, just demanding. Ah the irony. A demand for donations rather than simply leaving it up to people to decide to donate. What a wonderful strategy.

macintroll wrote: @contrasia
My point was to show that there is already a market, an ecosystem around free mods.
And the only ones who are not allowed to take a place in this market are the modders themselves. that's what i call irony.

@Lamproly- No, donating is not completely anonymous. Both the donor and recipient see each other's real name and email address which is a no go for many people.

[simtam]

That's rather pessimistic point of view, Ghatto. Noone really knows what TES modding would look like if it was paid allowed long time ago. In April they pulled the plug out too fast to make any prediction from that small campaign. And in somewhat related field, writing genre prose, we used to have published books and free zins, then e-books plaftorms came and I didn't notice people arguing against it as you are against paid game mods.

[sunshinenbrick]

That's rather pessimistic point of view, Ghatto. Noone really knows what TES modding would look like if it was paid allowed long time ago. In April they pulled the plug out too fast to make any prediction from that small campaign. And in somewhat related field, writing genre prose, we used to have published books and free zins, then e-books plaftorms came and I didn't notice people arguing against it as you are against paid game mods.

 

The closing of public libraries and the freedom of knowledge is actually a very contentious issue. It's the same thing as digitisation in the music and movie market. Its all very nice and great but there are people out there who want to control it all. There is a lot of money involved, but that does not make it the right thing to do.

 

EDIT: Let me just explain what I mean a little further... the Nexus and sites like it are digital libraries. The recent paywall fiaso was the equivalent to trying to privatise a library with its members and workers picketing for better rights and conditions.

 

While I am for dedicated and good modders getting paid, it should be done in a respectful and decent manner. This cannot be isolated to what happened here even if it was a catalyst - there is a real danger with these unilateral trade agreements of which the paywall is an excellent example. While they give with one hand, a "job" and money, they take with the other, no social security, no national insurance, no retirement plan, no unemployment benefit (in case you get ill while modding)... the list goes on.

 

Being a modder of a professional calibre does not happen over night, it takes days, weeks, months, even years of hard graft, and most of that time would not be paid! And after all that... 25%, of which is 'wallet points' under a certain threshold?

 

Having a bath...

[nonoodles]

In response to post #28716044.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

That's rather pessimistic point of view, Ghatto. Noone really knows what TES modding would look like if it was paid allowed long time ago. In April they pulled the plug out too fast to make any prediction from that small campaign. And in somewhat related field, writing genre prose, we used to have published books and free zins, then e-books plaftorms came and I didn't notice people arguing against it as you are against paid game mods.

 

The closing of public libraries and the freedom of knowledge is actually a very contentious issue. It's the same thing as digitisation in the music and movie market. Its all very nice and great but there are people out there who want to control it all. There is a lot of money involved, but that does not make it the right thing to do.

 

EDIT: Let me just explain what I mean a little further... the Nexus and sites like it are digital libraries. The recent paywall fiaso was the equivalent to trying to privatise a library with its members and workers picketing for better rights and conditions.

 

While I am for dedicated and good modders getting paid, it should be done in a respectful and decent manner. This cannot be isolated to what happened here even if it was a catalyst - there is a real danger with these unilateral trade agreements of which the paywall is an excellent example. While they give with one hand, a "job" and money, they take with the other, no social security, no national insurance, no retirement plan, no unemployment benefit (in case you get ill while modding)... the list goes on.

 

Being a modder of a professional calibre does not happen over night, it takes days, weeks, months, even years of hard graft, and most of that time would not be paid! And after all that... 25%, of which is 'wallet points' under a certain threshold?

 

Having a bath...

I think the point is, rather, that the matter is completely out of our hands. Whether or not paid modding is ever (re)introduced is not something that can be decided by you, me, Nexus or the community as a whole.

Bethesda is going to do whatever they want with their property. The ongoing discourse is fine but also rather pointless. If anyone has an issue with paid modding, they really ought to be taking it up with Bethesda. Modders and mod users alike can only argue in circles here, which ends with all of us angry and upset once again.

More to the subject at hand, I think Nexus has done a lot where donations are concerned. It's also obvious that pushing the studio any more on the subject of Patreon etc. could jeopardise an already rather precarious situation. Making the donation button more 'spammy' might achieve the opposite of the intended effect. So, taking an evening off is the only viable suggestion that pops into mind right now.