Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[sunshinenbrick]

I've made a living getting on 20 years as an Artist.

 

Does that count as turning a hobby into a paying enterprise?

 

You realize that on the internet that saying loses its validity. You now know a man that goes against that grain and now its just not so rare anymore.

 

As an Artist, I can personally tell you that the mod user's, interested parties, and damage control teams have all been hurtful to the creative parties involved.

 

I find some of the passages here to be very spiteful, poorly worded, and downright insulting.

 

As I fellow artist (whatever it really means??) I share the pain, but creativity has always been a somewhat thankless if not vilified quality. I suppose maybe being the unsung hero is all part of the alure...

 

I think you could very well say you have created an enterprise but perhaps don't just opt for the whole corporate logo, slogan and nasty lawyers thing :yucky:

 

I admire that.

 

Usually an enterprise will consist of a number of people, all with their own jobs and specialities, characters and relationships. From what I have seen the Nexus here is a pretty good ecosystem for these kind of ventures, especially in the creative sense. And if their hands were not tied... but they are, by a much much larger enterprise. I also believe the recent clusterbomb was unlikey a complete accident and would have done to any outfit what it did here. Inevitable as this all was, it didn't have to be so brutal.

[gamefever]

In response to post #28895864.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

I've made a living getting on 20 years as an Artist.

Does that count as turning a hobby into a paying enterprise?

You realize that on the internet that saying loses its validity. You now know a man that goes against that grain and now its just not so rare anymore.

As an Artist, I can personally tell you that the mod user's, interested parties, and damage control teams have all been hurtful to the creative parties involved.

I find some of the passages here to be very spiteful, poorly worded, and downright insulting.

 

As I fellow artist (whatever it really means??) I share the pain, but creativity has always been a somewhat thankless if not vilified quality. I suppose maybe being the unsung hero is all part of the alure...

 

I think you could very well say you have created an enterprise but perhaps don't just opt for the whole corporate logo, slogan and nasty lawyers thing :yucky:

 

I admire that.

 

Usually an enterprise will consist of a number of people, all with their own jobs and specialities, characters and relationships. From what I have seen the Nexus here is a pretty good ecosystem for these kind of ventures, especially in the creative sense. And if their hands were not tied... but they are, by a much much larger enterprise. I also believe the recent clusterbomb was unlikey a complete accident and would have done to any outfit what it did here. Inevitable as this all was, it didn't have to be so brutal.

Well I should replace "enterprise" with able to make bills by sale of work, still most would consider what I do to be a hobby only...But I survive off of my stuff.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28895864.

 

 

 

sunshinenbrick wrote:

I've made a living getting on 20 years as an Artist.

 

Does that count as turning a hobby into a paying enterprise?

 

You realize that on the internet that saying loses its validity. You now know a man that goes against that grain and now its just not so rare anymore.

 

As an Artist, I can personally tell you that the mod user's, interested parties, and damage control teams have all been hurtful to the creative parties involved.

 

I find some of the passages here to be very spiteful, poorly worded, and downright insulting.

As I fellow artist (whatever it really means??) I share the pain, but creativity has always been a somewhat thankless if not vilified quality. I suppose maybe being the unsung hero is all part of the alure...

I think you could very well say you have created an enterprise but perhaps don't just opt for the whole corporate logo, slogan and nasty lawyers thing :yucky:

I admire that.

Usually an enterprise will consist of a number of people, all with their own jobs and specialities, characters and relationships. From what I have seen the Nexus here is a pretty good ecosystem for these kind of ventures, especially in the creative sense. And if their hands were not tied... but they are, by a much much larger enterprise. I also believe the recent clusterbomb was unlikey a complete accident and would have done to any outfit what it did here. Inevitable as this all was, it didn't have to be so brutal.

Well I should replace "enterprise" with able to make bills by sale of work, still most would consider what I do to be a hobby only...But I survive off of my stuff.

 

 

It is true there seems to be a paradox in the making of money and there being more things that require it... Some sort of proverbial carrot and the irony of a not so "free" market.

 

I suppose a hobby is also subject to the definitions attributed to it.

 

However, markets are surely changing and before long we may be able to mod not only games, but movies, music or even micro-manage the day to day of our lives too. It seems the boundaries between work and play may dissolve completely. I wonder to what effect?

[opal407]

Reading through the Terms of Service of ZeniMax Media, it has become quite clear to me, after much retyping and general "de-lawyer'ing" that Bethesda "allows" PayPal links because of the fact that they cannot prove, without a doubt, that the donation to modders is because of something they did involving ZeniMax Media property. Even-so, they still "granted its use" at the start of Skyrim's modding days because they were ignorant to how large it would be, or so I think is what has happened. It was an oversight by Bethesda and its layers, and they won't allow an easier way to allow donations involving Bethesda property because they know how much it drives the community. ZeniMax Media's Terms of service section 2, subsection 2, paragraph 2, line 3 states that: "To the extent that ZeniMax cannot claim exclusive ownership rights in such UGC (User Generated Content) by operation of law or pursuant to the assignment noted above... You hereby expressly grant...license to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with such UGC in all formats and media".

 

 

I will provide the link to the ZeniMax Media's ToS so everyone who wants to can read it. This is publicly available. If any moderators or admins have found I have overstepped the ToS stated on Nexusmods.com, please remove this and message me to inform me. If this has caused a problem for Nexusmods.com and/or its affiliates, I apologize. I was only trying to make public knowledge easier to find to better help the modding community.

 

https://www.zenimax.com/legal_terms_us

Edited September 22, 2015 by opal407

[sunshinenbrick]

One has to wonder if sooner or later that just by playing a game, it will be breaking a ToS somewhere? :tongue:

[athiust]

Dear Dark0ne. Thank you for years of entertainment, your websites structure has made a gateway for entertainment and replay value

[simtam]

Reading through the Terms of Service of ZeniMax Media, it has become quite clear to me, after much retyping and general "de-lawyer'ing" that Bethesda "allows" PayPal links because of the fact that they cannot prove, without a doubt, that the donation to modders is because of something they did involving ZeniMax Media property. Even-so, they still "granted its use" at the start of Skyrim's modding days because they were ignorant to how large it would be, or so I think is what has happened. It was an oversight by Bethesda and its layers, and they won't allow an easier way to allow donations involving Bethesda property because they know how much it drives the community. ZeniMax Media's Terms of service section 2, subsection 2, paragraph 2, line 3 states that: "To the extent that ZeniMax cannot claim exclusive ownership rights in such UGC (User Generated Content) by operation of law or pursuant to the assignment noted above... You hereby expressly grant...license to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with such UGC in all formats and media".

I think you are overinterpreting. The shift in this document you linked is, imho, moving from a product to service, and claiming games as services, and announcing "terms of service to govern" how we use such games.

 

It would make barely little sense if it were not for some games which are indeed online services, and afair ZeniMax Media did not have an online game five years ago.

 

Anyway, I did not found anything there about donations. Nope, sorry, nothing.

[WaltC]

I have to say that I find the notion of people seeking patrons for their computer work very medieval...;) Back in Shakespeare's day patrons were sought to "support the arts" and I have no problem with the concept today. People are free to do what they like with their own money. But I would agree wholeheartedly that you keep the Nexus out of all of that--that goes far afield of what you've done so wonderfully with here, imo. You'd risk getting embroiled with lawyers--and, frankly, nothing is worth the stench that often results from such undesirable contact. Let them chase their ambulances elsewhere--I agree!

 

Game modding I see is much like amateur sports: if they find out you are a "pro" or have ever been a "pro" they kick you out of the amateur leagues...;) I of course suggest nothing so regimented for game modding & modders, but it seems to me there exists a real danger of forgetting the amateur spirit of modding--it never has been a professional vocation. OTOH, it may well serve to get someone into a more professional position relative to game creation, and that's a reward in itself. I also completely agree with the propriety of the system the way it is in that modders are allowed to ask for donations without making promises or jumping into implied contracts--that is a much better place for the Nexus to be in as well as for the modder himself, imo. I think you are doing things right as the Nexus has as much interest in keeping its audience happy as it does in keeping its modders happy. If modders want more then they should make their own arrangements with these patron services--because that's not what the Nexus is, is it? A "patron service," I mean.

[Turtleman7055]

I've never been against artists (modders) being compensated by some sort of pay system, whether that be donations or the other way.

 

What I have a problem with is paying for a mod that flatly doesn't work, or works fine til another mod is added. Then the user is stuck with a mod they paid for but can't use. And then it's up to the consumer to figure out which mod is the conflict.

 

And you have to admit there are a huge number of those kinds of mods.

 

Where is the protection of the consumer?

[nightscrawl]

I certainly don't envy the Nexus folks for trying to wrangle all of this together: seek a solution that would appease both the mod author and user (potential donor) without also risking the wrath of the game companies.

 

The main issue I have is a hypothetical one. I understand that mod authors develop mods in their free time and also have to deal with a real-world job (or school, or both), families, and so forth. Presumably these folks get into modding a given game because they enjoy the game very much and like making new things for it. This is all well and good.

 

The problem I foresee is when a user likes a mod enough to donate, but then down the road the author stops development, or updating, either because real-life issues took over, or because they simply got burned out of that particular game and want to move onto something else. Sometimes these authors might be working on giant projects that are just halted (such as retexturing all of Skyrim), and the user that donated may wind up feeling cheated, and this may sour them from donating to some other author in the future.

 

This may be lambasted as the user feeling "entitled," and perhaps that's true, particularly as this is all optional content. But I do wonder whether this is a mental barrier that prevents some people from donating in the first place.

 

I think most of us have experienced this problem: we start using a mod, like it a lot, and then notice that the author has stopped development for whatever reason. Most of the time, depending on what the mod is, this isn't an issue. But it is particularly relevant with a game like Skyrim, which continues to be popular and gain new players despite being four years old, even though many of the mods that were created during its height are no longer being worked on.

 

The other problem I foresee is with enforcement of original content, which becomes more important if money is going to be changing hands. How are the Nexus staff going to police ALL of the mods to ensure that every single one is using original content, or at least NOT using content ripped from other games (for example, putting Witcher content into Skyrim)? There are also presumably copyright issues with mods that, say, put the famous Lord of the Rings weapons into a game. How is the Nexus going to deal with all of those things? Will there be an approval process for each mod? "This mod is OK because the author used their own textures, but this one is not because they're using copyrighted appearances and/or names"? The approved mod gets their donation button, but the disapproved mod does not?

Edited September 28, 2015 by nightscrawl