Why do people hate Fallout 4 so much?

[cossayos]

I think the modding community is proof that this is a good game. It just dosnt stick with certain types of gamers and thats how the world turns. For me personally I find it very addicting because the whole settlers functionality and mods really scratch my world building/crafting itch. But ya, I dont like CTD (crash to desktop) which the mods often introduce (and in some cases the game itself).

 

Everything else I feel is well worth the money and I feel people are overly critical but thats my 2 caps on the matter.

 

That being the major asset why I'm still playing and enjoying FO4 as opposed to other Bethesda games. Now with the added Raider option I'm drawing even more fun out of it, since it offers the possibility for my female lead to be a mean b&@*$. And to rub it into Preston's face, of course.

[tartarsauce2]

 

No actually I hadn't seen that video, but I looked it up just now and I agree with what he says. Makes me want to play NV, but I'm not sure if I could get past the issues I have with it.

 

I mean just thinking about "where do bullets come from" gives me ideas for quests. A single mother whose husband was killed has a kid who helps his mom pay rent by collecting spent casings. His mom doesn't like it because it's dangerous but what's to do? Well the kid has now gone missing and she asks you to find him. Right away I care more about this kid than "Shaun." Maybe you are thinking you can move in with this poor stressed out mom, huh? If you find her kid, that is. Kind of reminds you of your dead wife and missing son.

 

In an unrelated incident, a fatcat trader is raking in the caps by buying up spent casings in bulk, reloading them at a sweatshop-type place, and selling them. He even has his own "brand" which is stamped on the boxes, instead of "Circle G," what the hell is that. He has his own family to watch after and doesn't really care how he gets the spent casings, nor who gets hurt in the process. Nor does he care that his business is "bottling death" so to speak, by contributing to the violence of the wasteland.

 

This has real-world inspiration from children in 3rd world countries, I mean it's dripping with potential for "morality" and feels and what have you. Kid steps on a landmine, etc. It's not hard! So why is so much of the writing in FO4 dry? I still enjoy the game, but I mean damn, they really need new writers.

 

start with a strong foundation before you build house, and by this I mean have a solid, well-thought-out setting, with cohesive design and elements which work together, and are there because they should be, not because they are "cool."

 

is diverted to this cause. The best game developers can do is "hide" such things with design choices.

:devil: that's the ticket

I personally wouldn't want a sobstory, what I'd like is situations that pick at my own moral fibre that have to be resolved somehow (and I think that's what you're getting at that's an awesome setting), it's only an RPG if you play in a role after all, besides fallout's always been a morbidly fascinating series

Edited September 12, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[cossayos]

 

 

There are some technical problems that cannot be solved by today's computers. Home experiment: Put a bench down in a room full of settlers and watch them bug out. This is a variant of "dining philsophers" problem, as someone else here pointed out, that is a topic of frustration for programmers. Throwing money at it doesn't fix it, believe me, enough grant money is diverted to this cause. The best game developers can do is "hide" such things with design choices.

 

 

 

Sure, there are some technical problems. That however doesn't mean that the mage encourages you to join the mages guild over and over, even though you already made it to head of the mages guild. Or "I work for Belaphor at the general goods shop" over and over. Or, to stay with Fallout, to encourage you to speak to Dima when he's already lying dead on the waterfront.

 

Even Morrowind approached in that direction in a very simplistic way by recognizing you as the new Nerevarine. I guess it's as simple as a flag to point out the player as being special in a certain department.

[AGreatWeight]

 

Edit: A lot of what I appreciate in games is "cohesion" of writing, design, and the game world. A cool outfit is one thing, but how does it get there?

Example: Where do the BoS get their maroon cable-knit sweaters from? Who would take the time to make these? The leather obviously comes from Brahmin, OK, and there are tanning racks in FH. But maybe include set decorations of outfits in varying stages of completion.

 

Bullets -- where do they come from? I'm actually working on a mod that addresses this, but since there are (imaginary) casings strewn all over the ground, wastelanders or wasteland children could make some caps by collecting casings and selling them at trading hubs to be reloaded. In fact I imagine this would be a common job. All the ammo you shoot has most likely been shot 3 or 4 times already, since bullet cartridges of are such precise dimensions, and since you don't see any micrometers lying around, it's safe to assume the average wasteland craftsmen does not have the tools nor skill to manufacture casings by hand of uniform diameter.

 

Tl;dr I really appreciate when design choices are backed in the game world and make sense, showing more thought behind it than "it looks cool."

 

 

You do raise an interesting point there, and something that I was thinking about a few days ago whilst playing. This ties somewhat into the lack of depth in the game, when you start looking beyond the surface. There are so many things that 'happen' in the game that your never given a chance to be exposed to. I can simplify this with the following example. When looting corpses, the interaction is kept at the bare minimum; there isn't even a simple crouching animation whilst doing this (if the body is on the floor) As someone stated in a video review I once watched "pretty much the only time the player character has hands is when your holding a gun or reloading it" No animation for picking items up, and Bethesda still didn't give us the option to see our own body/legs/feet when in first person view - you don't even cast a shadow from this viewpoint.

Basically, this signifies a lack of attention to detail, and it all adds up to a lot of things that work together to break your immersion.

 

trust me they definitely used his stuff somewhat the way he designed it

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Raider_armor_(Fallout_3)

 

of course, when making games the issue is what you can actually pull off in a 3D environment, but that's why he's a concept artist, they take their own spin on it, and do what they can with it, there's load times, production times, disc space to consider

this is why I wouldn't denigrate the others for being less able in this way, because he's thinking up a lot of the cool stuff while they're kind of bridging the imaginative with the real and that's also hard work

 

It's worth noting that the team is hampered a great deal in bringing that vision 'alive' simpy by the constraints of the engine that they're using. Todd Howard pretty much confirmed this when he was asked about TES VI and said that it was years off as 'the technology doesn't exist' to impliment the game how they want it; I took this to mean that they'll need a new engine for their next game, or that they'll be using a new iteration of the creation engine - which has always been the archilles heel of Beth games.

 

But ya, I dont like CTD (crash to desktop) which the mods often introduce (and in some cases the game itself).

 

Everything else I feel is well worth the money and I feel people are overly critical but thats my 2 caps on the matter.

 

Your generalizing about mods, and downplaying the frequent bugs that users experienced in the vanilla game that would cause CTDs. Sure, there are some mods that are/were sloppily made, and others that unfortunately cause conflicts. The thing you have to bear in mind is that a lot of mods were made before Beth gave us the Creation Kit, and before all the dlc was released. Beth likely still have a number of patches to introduce in the near future, so this all adds up. I won't even go into user errors when using mods, as the forums are a testament to that. Modding your game has never been a risk-free situation, but that's the chance you take.

 

 

No actually I hadn't seen that video, but I looked it up just now and I agree with what he says. Makes me want to play NV, but I'm not sure if I could get past the issues I have with it.

 

I mean just thinking about "where do bullets come from" gives me ideas for quests. A single mother whose husband was killed has a kid who helps his mom pay rent by collecting spent casings. His mom doesn't like it because it's dangerous but what's to do? Well the kid has now gone missing and she asks you to find him. Right away I care more about this kid than "Shaun." Maybe you are thinking you can move in with this poor stressed out mom, huh? If you find her kid, that is. Kind of reminds you of your dead wife and missing son.

 

In an unrelated incident, a fatcat trader is raking in the caps by buying up spent casings in bulk, reloading them at a sweatshop-type place, and selling them. He even has his own "brand" which is stamped on the boxes, instead of "Circle G," what the hell is that. He has his own family to watch after and doesn't really care how he gets the spent casings, nor who gets hurt in the process. Nor does he care that his business is "bottling death" so to speak, by contributing to the violence of the wasteland.

 

This has real-world inspiration from children in 3rd world countries, I mean it's dripping with potential for "morality" and feels and what have you. Kid steps on a landmine, etc. It's not hard! So why is so much of the writing in FO4 dry? I still enjoy the game, but I mean damn, they really need new writers.

 

start with a strong foundation before you build house, and by this I mean have a solid, well-thought-out setting, with cohesive design and elements which work together, and are there because they should be, not because they are "cool."

 

 

 

That's a great example of the kind of storytelling/moral dilemma that should have been in the game. It occured to me last night that in the base game, they basically ignored slavers - or at least I can't remember coming across anything to do with that. Maybe Nuka World touches on it, I've only played a few hours of it. Still got FH and Automatron to play yet.

 

 

Everything else I feel is well worth the money and I feel people are overly critical but thats my 2 caps on the matter.

 

I don't think people are unneccessarily being overly critical of Fallout 4, not when they raise many valid points in an objective manner.

I will however agree with you when people are just dismissing the game as garbage.

Personally I believe Beth had the opportunity to make Fallout 4 their biggest and most detailed/complex game so far (that's generally what you'd think a development team like them would be aiming for, right?) and unfortunately fell short of that... for reasons which a lot of the discussion in this thread is aimed at.

[mkborgelt13]

 

 

No actually I hadn't seen that video, but I looked it up just now and I agree with what he says. Makes me want to play NV, but I'm not sure if I could get past the issues I have with it.

 

I mean just thinking about "where do bullets come from" gives me ideas for quests. A single mother whose husband was killed has a kid who helps his mom pay rent by collecting spent casings. His mom doesn't like it because it's dangerous but what's to do? Well the kid has now gone missing and she asks you to find him. Right away I care more about this kid than "Shaun." Maybe you are thinking you can move in with this poor stressed out mom, huh? If you find her kid, that is. Kind of reminds you of your dead wife and missing son.

 

In an unrelated incident, a fatcat trader is raking in the caps by buying up spent casings in bulk, reloading them at a sweatshop-type place, and selling them. He even has his own "brand" which is stamped on the boxes, instead of "Circle G," what the hell is that. He has his own family to watch after and doesn't really care how he gets the spent casings, nor who gets hurt in the process. Nor does he care that his business is "bottling death" so to speak, by contributing to the violence of the wasteland.

 

This has real-world inspiration from children in 3rd world countries, I mean it's dripping with potential for "morality" and feels and what have you. Kid steps on a landmine, etc. It's not hard! So why is so much of the writing in FO4 dry? I still enjoy the game, but I mean damn, they really need new writers.

 

start with a strong foundation before you build house, and by this I mean have a solid, well-thought-out setting, with cohesive design and elements which work together, and are there because they should be, not because they are "cool."

 

is diverted to this cause. The best game developers can do is "hide" such things with design choices.

:devil: that's the ticket

I personally wouldn't want a sobstory, what I'd like is situations that pick at my own moral fibre that have to be resolved somehow (and I think that's what you're getting at that's an awesome setting), it's only an RPG if you play in a role after all, besides fallout's always been a morbidly fascinating series

 

 

I think the whole thing with "morality," player choice, and role-playing game should not be about "Am I good or evil," but "what would I do in this situation?" If you think about it, there isn't any good or bad in Fallout, it's a matter of perspective, as in "what do I have to do to survive?"

 

I mean it's all how you cut apart the problem. In that example I gave, you can look at it different ways. The kid's a dumbass for going out alone, and his mom's a terrible mother. Or you can say, "what a shitty world, where this has to happen for people to get by." Or, "what a good kid, helping out his mom, and risking his own back." Or even "I want to sleep with his mom so I'm gonna find that kid."

 

edit: And those things above aren't necessarily through the dialogue, they are in the player's mind as they go through the game. Dialogue can be the simple wheel that everyone hates so much. It's just a small part of the writing. I mean, who would say to that mother, "Well, your kid's stupid for doing that, and you're a bad mother for letting him go?" Having the option to say that actually makes it worse, in my opinion. A lot of conversations with people is what you want to say versus what you actually say. Talking is just the "tip of the iceberg," I think.

 

Basically no sob stories, unless you choose to interpret it as such. A core theme should be how a pre-war person chooses to rationalize the kind of life-or-death decisions you are faced with. In this way the SS is a great player-surrogate. What use is empathy when faced with bullets coming at you? Does empathy make civilization? Or is it selfish interest, eat-or-be-eaten, with the strongest climbing out on top? Nature vs. nurture, etc. They had a great set-up with the Supermutants and Strong's desire for "Milk of Human Kindness," but did nothing with it.

 

I think some of it is a straight-laced attitude of the studio, they need more "west coast" groove such as that video you linked.

 

I mean there are so many things I'd like to change. What's with smoking 200-year-old cigarettes? Ever try smoking stale tobacco? Or a half-smoked cigarette? Not even worth it, they should be growing their own 'mutant' tobacco, and they can even tie this into their preoccupation with colonial America.

 

Instead of whatever Bunker Hill is supposed to be, I'd rather have an open-air "shakedown street" type place, with free-wheeling dealers and drifters coming in and out of the wastes.

Edited September 12, 2016 by mkborgelt13

[Mavkiel]

Weak main story, bastardized brotherhood and lousy dlc. It really is hard to get excited when about half the dlc is just settlement building stuff. Hell, they didn't even bother to include new settlements or pre-existing structures to showcase their stuff. Oh and lets not forget the magic they added in the way of legendary items. Rifles able to fire endlessly without reloading? I might be able to buy that if it was a quest item with a story behind it. But dropping from some random raider in the wastes?

 

Then there is the weapon selection, seriously how many weapons in it do you actually like the look of? I can only think of the combat rifle and minigun off hand.

 

Lastly, the survival mode. Sweet god almighty, they screwed that up. The weapons were already balanced because of their weight. Now, you couldn't pay me to use a missile or nuke launcher (even legendary versions with all relevant perks). Then they decide to disable achievements, and saving when you want. Despite how stable the engine is, the quest system is still a god awful mess. For example, every time I join the brotherhood, I have to save before talking to maxson and assaulting fort strong. Why? Because 9 times out of 10 the damn virtibird will not spawn.

 

Only two things I can say I like about fallout 4:

 

Stable engine - Seriously, in previous games, I would spend hours just trying to get that damn thing not to ctd at annoying times.

 

Nuka world - Sure far harbor was decent, but if you didn't like the synth story-line to begin with and thought children of atom were a joke.. that dlc doesn't do much for you. I like the over the top humor of nuka world, and playing as a not so good person.

[cossayos]

Once again. What makes this one worse than any previous Bethesda game. What outstanding story or DLCs have they ever produced. Get serious guys. When I bought this game I was fully aware of buying Bethesda. And I got what I bargained for.

[RS13]

They say that no good RPGs have a voiced character but they do, The Dragon Age Series, Guild Wars 2, and others that get high praise. Another thing that they complain about is the graphics. I know games recently have been photo realistic, but if you judge a game by the graphics than you shouldn't be calling yourself a gamer. In the last two years there have been many good games that aren't photo realistic and expecting an A list game to look like that is just stupid.

 

That's not why people hate it. Yes, a lot of people bitched about the graphics early on, but that complaint has mostly gone away. The reasons people dislike it now are pretty well established:

 

Story/Roleplay Gripes

 

1. There's less room for role playing than previous games--especially New Vegas. This is largely because...

 

2. The dialogue sucks. Several reasons for this: (I) It's almost always the same four options: Yes, Sarcastic yes, no, more information. (II) There's rarely (outside of Nuka World) bad dialogue options. There's rarely even Han Solo-options. It's always "don't worry, I'll save Timmy from the well." "It's never 'Just have my money ready.'" (III) Your dialogue is boring. What you actually say is almost as short and perfunctory as the topics you chose from. There's hardly ever any flavor. (IV) Your character build doesn't affect your dialogue options. In FNV you had all these cool skill-based dialogue options, many of which dramatically affected the outcome of the conversation. In Fo4 it's all based on Charisma, and it amounts to nothing more than extra xp and a few extra caps.

 

3. The story feels out of place. Bethesda games are best when you're just wandering aimlessly, discovering new places and chasing down whatever quest grabs your attention. Here, your a loving parent who not is looking for their child, but who tells everyone they meet that they're desperate to find him.

 

4. The main story sucks. Sure Bethesda's never been known for their main stories, but when you feel compelled to do it...

 

5. And last but certainly not least: Almost every quest is resolved by violence. This gives every-quest a samey feeling. Even the quest--one of the least samey in the game--where you play a golden age comic book character resolves in violence. There's no option to batman your way through these it with stealth and rubber bullets. It's just a cooler way to kill.

Gameplay:

1. The Perks suck. Sure there are some fun ones, (the luck tree is great and a blitz-melee build is OP as hell), but there's a lot of perks that either (I) suck (VANS, Lead Belly, Aquaboy, Big Sale, scrounger, cap collector) or (II) are boring (all the more damage and more dam resistant perks) or (III) feel necessary: all. the. crafting. perks. Lockpicking. Hacking. When you've cut your whole leveling system down to just 70 perks and focused your game on combat, you can't afford to have any duds. But the Perk tree we got is littered crappy, boring or necessary perks. This has the effect that...

 

1A. Leveling up now is more of a chore than it ever was in FO3 or FNV because I'm just not excited about getting new perks. Very often I wander the wasteland with a perk point in my back pocket, and it's not uncommon for me to rack up 2 or 3 before I finally spend them.

 

1B. All the characters feel samey. Basically there's two distinct builds: melee and ranged. After that, there's not a terrible amount of difference.

 

That's not to say *I* hate the game. I don't. Stiil, these are the reasons commonly given and I do think most of them are real problems.

 

I'd also add, that I think following new vegas was really hard. If all we'd ever had was Fallout 3, I think this game would be better received, since a lot of these problems (Boring perks, mismatched story, crappy story) are present to some degree or another in FO3. But because FO3 was so long ago and FNV is more recent, people tend to roll them together. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone lament the loss of skill-based dialogue options from Fallout 3! Play the game again guys; there's not many (if any?) skill checks in FO3's dialogue.

Edited September 12, 2016 by RS13

[cossayos]

I certainly hope that people are aware by now that New Vegas has been made by Obsidian and not Bethesda. So bitching and comparing it to New Vegas is way off the mark. It's not even an argument. Compare it to FO3 or Skyrim and you could know right from the start what to expect.

[RS13]

I certainly hope that people are aware by now that New Vegas has been made by Obsidian and not Bethesda. So bitching and comparing it to New Vegas is way off the mark. It's not even an argument. Compare it to FO3 or Skyrim and you could know right from the start what to expect.

 

I just said this is why people dislike it. But in fairness, that *is* an argument. If you've been eating Salisbury Steak your whole life, and then you get real steak, there's no reason you can't say "wow! That Salisbury steak is no good! If it would good it would be more like this!" Besides, there's an important difference between Fallout 4 and Fallout 3. New Vegas came before one and after the other. We absolutely can blame Bethesda for not learning anything from that game.