Hot Topic #1: The dumbing down of Oblivion

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tsolless' post removed. Spam. Please read the rules before posting, thanks!

[Xersize]

Sicne I never played any of the previous games in the serie (shame on me) I was hoping for no less. But no, when I have played it and seen/heard/read stuff about the previous games, I think that they could have done some featurs better

[Bi5h0p]

Yes, Oblivion was "dumbed-down" a little bit more than I'd have liked it to be. One thing was glaringly apparent: Oblivion was definitely created with game-consoles in mind, and I fear that, for PC gamers, that is just going to be a continuing trend as time goes on.

 

Compared to Morrowind, Oblivion couldn't measure up to the earlier games' storylines (which contained several moral ambiguities and alternate endings/increased replayability) or to the earlier versions' wide variety in content.

 

However, Oblivion obviously improved in one area: way better graphics. Also, Oblivion (when ran on a powerful enough computer) is a lot smoother-playing game with fewer glitches, in general. Though not totally free of glitches, at times Morrowind did have more of a tendency to cause me system crashes or to experience major graphical errors.

 

In a perfect world, Oblivion would have kept all of Morrowinds' strengths and added its' own strengths to those in order to create a truly unforgetable RPG! Getting rid of the ability to fly around was a huge, huge mistake. Also, not being able to fight from horseback and charge down puny goblins with oversized lances and spears was a big disappointment. So, I hope that any future releases from Bethesda will keep the best of both games and add mounted charges to the players' arsenal. Not to mention the fact that being charged by Imperial Guard Patrols on horseback would give me a whole new kind of adrenaline rush!!!

[Seniosh]

You know, the one shortcoming of oblivion was that it was in no sense "wonderous" yes, it has a good combat system, looks pretty, has a lot of content, but it's nothing special.

 

Morrowind was special. I say this as someone who picked up morrowind after playing oblivion. The entire world was alien and new. There was variety there. You could run past giant plantations, enter redoran cities, which looked completely different from hlaalu cities, which were in no way like imperial cities, which were ALL different from telvanni towns! then on top of that there's ashlanders, in their awesome yurts, with GUARS!

 

It was incredible! so much variety.

 

Well in oblivion, everything's the same. No magick, no giant mushrooms, no ordinators to look down on you. It's just a plain old medieval setting, with barely any fantasy mixed in with it, and a predictable storyline.

 

Please, make TESV wonderous. Put it somewhere with many different extremes, where we all get culture shock. Give us unique dungeons, unique quests, and let us connect with the world.

 

And one more thing

- because everybody's mentioned axes being in blunt, i've got this to say

It makes sense. Look at an axe sometime, and look at a hammer. It's the same thing. The principle force involved is a large weight on the end of a stick, meaning that you swing them the same way. if you can swing a warhammer you can swing a battleaxe, because the weight and forces involved are the same. Furthermore, axes really aren't all that sharp- they rely mostly on their tremendous weight and force to tear through things, rather than swords which slice.

 

Therefore, axes and hammers operate on the SAME principles, so putting them in a category together makes SENSE. Maybe calling it "blunt" wasn't the best name, but if you can use one, you can use the other, therefore a connected skill.

 

that is all

[Porc_Roig]

On Oblivion i felt all the time at the same pseudo-medieval place. I missed the art direction of Morrowind: there were a lot of different topography, and it felt more like traveling in a bigger world than in Oblivion where you seem to be traveling over a little country. Everything is the same, every town has the same houses. I don't know if they were trying to do this, but i loved the tree houses, and the ashlands and Vivec in Morrowind. I needed something like Vivec in Oblivion to think "wow, this is fantasy" and not "bah, same old medieval stuff".

 

Also the oblivion world was all simple stupidity: all the gates were the same, it feels like an arcade in there.

[cam_sama]

I've carefully read a whole bunch of posts with quite similar reactions, and I have to disagree on some points.

 

The graphics are gorgeous, and they definitely add something to the pleasure to just sit in front of your screen. I don't remenber having ever passed a minute searching the web for morrowind (or other games) screenshots. More than just photographic, they have a visual identity I appreciate. They are worth whatever they have cost.

 

As for the medieval style, yes, it's less exotic than in morrowind. But I prefer it that way. I may be close-minded, but i'm more confortable with a sheep farm than with a flock of tamed TRex (the guars). And I definitely do not agree that it is "alway the same old medieval stuff", not more than morrowind is "alway the same weird dunmer stuff". Oblivion's cities do not look the same, if you know how to appreciate the nuance beetween an elvish-like pavillon in cheydinhall, a shabby hovel in Bravil and the massive stone houses of Skingrad. Maybe because it's less extravagant, you can put far more details and hints in oblivion's background than in morrowind's.

 

The quest are a lot fewer than in morrowind, I agree, but they are also longer, more complex and varied. Remember Arvena Thelas rats problem in both games? Which one was basic? In my memory, morrowind had more fetch quests and more go-down-there-and-slay-everything quests. Unfortunately, this lack of dungeon quests let loads of dungeon not quest-related, and dull. It would have been better to just remove them.

 

This being said, I have to approve most of the previous points. Oblivion lacks diversity in its items (especially weapons and armors) , factions and character's appearance. Some gameplay aspects, like sneak or hand to hand combat are so easily corrected than you wonder what it still has to be done.

The balance of spells, the lack of maniability of enchanting or spell-making, the level-scaling/looting, the inadequate persuasion mini-game,

are real pains, especially compared to the previous version in TES3.

I actually enjoyed the voicing at first, but I have to face it is heavy in data and make dialog writing clumsy. This is a point where they could have spare time, money and effort to focus on more essential feature.

 

The main quest story was quite good, at least till you have to close 20 oblivion gates in a row. The real downside is the lack of vitality of cyrodiil. You got 7 towns with a count each, and not a single conflict, no relationship beetween them. No tentacular skooma trade along the niben. No revolt, no complain from anybody against anybody. The assassination was not a coup d'état led by Chancelor Ocato to seize power. What I truely miss was Morrowind vivid political and social life : three rival houses, ploting against or with the imperial invaders, with ashlanders against every others. Religious strifes, drug cartels, a slavery problem the imperial administration doesn't dare to tackle. In Oblivion, you got the nice guys, and the daedras, and small individual issues. Nothing big. Nothing worth getting implied in it, exept the main quest.

 

As a conclusion, I like oblivion as I liked morrowind, and I am a bit disappointed to love it more when I mod it than when I play it. It is far from being perfect, but we have the occasion to revamp it to our own particular taste. The moders community is the real plus of the game, for sure, but it will not prevent me to wait for the release of TES5 (unless it got really bad reviews...)

[swedishmeatball]

I love it quite a bit as it is, being an obsessed fan of Morrowind, I was too happy to hear Oblivion came out to be disappointed(However funny it was to hear that axes were "blunt")But, I do dislike how they spell everything out for you in this.. There's absolutely nothing that doesn't take more than a second to guess. Sometimes I was surprised by how flat-out obvious it was..

 

Ex. K'Sharra prophecy quest. I didn't even play it, and within two seconds the character "mentioned" rat poison, dead sheep, rats, and cheese display.

 

Also, when you go into your journal, your character miraculously discovers everything instantly, and spells out what you have to do, when you should be able to figure it out yourself.

 

One thing that isn't dumbing down that I missed from Morrowind was the variety between towns though..

[sniperdoc]

Just for some background, I have played just about any type of game out on the market, I'm 33 y/o and I've been a gamer for the past 20 years, and I intend to continue gaming, albeit maybe a bit less once I have some kids. :) God forbid!

 

Anyways,

 

I've played Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion. Each and every game of the TES series has been improved upon in some way or another, but they've also taken a few shortcuts here and there. But, that is to be expected when you have a game with a huge amount of freedoms.

 

First off let me state my opinions as I have them. The good things are as follows:

 

1. Oblivion's graphics are nothing short of superb, still to this day, with Dark Messiah, STALKER, and even now with Bioshock on the horizon, Oblivion is nothing to scoff at considering the depth and scale it has compared to the three I've just mentioned.

2. The sound effects and environmental sounds were extremely well done.

3. The music was fantastic (a few more tracks would have been nice).

4. Each TES game provided a new and innovative way to present the start of birth of the player character. In Morrowind it was that character design beginning that really had me hooked, and I'm glad they continued to allow players to do something similar in Oblivion.

5. I also found the freedom of being able to increase WHATEVER skills I had, and becoming whatever I wanted to become as a player character extremely refreshing. Gone were the days of Dungeons and Dragons player classes and restrictions. Why shouldn't I be able to play a mage AND wear armor?! If there's a penalty to spell casting, fine... but at least I can look good casting spells and wearing some Mithril or Glass armor!

6. The scale and amount of freedom that Oblivion continued to provide after Morrowind shows the amount of commitment, pride and ability Bethesda has to strive to provide similar and if not better gaming experiences to their user base.

 

Some of Oblivions shortcomings (these will be a bit more fleshed out):

 

First and foremost, what really got my goat the most, was the commerce system in Oblivion. I still get extremely peeved at the fact that it takes MONTHS to build up Mercantile. The fact that I have to sell each item, ONE... AT... A... TIME... CLICK... DRAG SLIDER... CLICK... CLICK... DRAG SLIDER... CLICK... to have SOME benefit towards my Mercantile score. I've had just about enough of that slider! I'm perplexed that the "per-item sold" had more of a bearing on Mercantile than the personality and speechcraft rating, the cost of the items being sold, the quality of items being sold, the quantity of the items being sold, and the haggle percentages.

 

If the algorithm used to calculate the rate of Mercantile growth was going to be too hard to figure out, then at least let the users choose a check box or SOMETHING, that designates whether we'd like to respond "OK" or "NO" to the items being sold, and what the default quantity should be... in this case Quantity "1" instead of EVERYTHING at once, which didn't benefit the players in any way other than to give them the gold.

 

That system needs to be looked at and improved tremendously. I care not if it takes a long time to build Mercantile, but the tediousness could definitely be removed.

 

Secondly, I'm really a bit upset with the fact that I couldn't enchant powerful items or create extremely powerful spells. I felt as if I had no way of creating very powerful things. Whether it be the cookie-cutter armor and spells, where every spell was the same or the fact that each piece of armor and weaponry really didn't seem all that special. Sure Chillrend was a cool name for a sword, but it sure didn't have that much of an effect on my game playing or combat effectiveness. If it's supposed to be special, make it special! About the only items that really seemed to be special were the Umbra Sword and The Escutcheon of Chorrol.

 

Since there was such a shortage of decent enchanted weapons and armor when I played a Paladin on my first go-around with Oblivion, I decided on my second try, that maybe I should try the route of the dedicated Mage and see if I can at least create really cool enchanted weapons or armor and scribe some really swell spells. But, even that thought was torn assunder when I used an Enchanting altar for the first time when I saw I could only apply one Soulgem to an artifact...

 

The fact that a GRAND SOUL GEM with a Grand Soul entrapped within it, offered but a meager 15% shield effect to my Arch-Mage Hood... or a paltry 50pts Feather to my Gold-tipped shoes. Or, that a flawless ebony diamond ring didn't offer any higher incentive or enchanting effects than a tarnished old brass ring. That was a large let-down.

 

To add to the enchanting and the commerce bit:

 

The ONLY part that really seemed to pay off in crafting goods, were the potions. Become a Master Alchemist and be somewhat adept at Mercantile, and you could have a meager 2gp Motherwort Sprig and turn it into a 40gp Resist Poison potion that was worth selling.

 

But, if you intended to delve the deepest dungeons for that solitary Grand Soul gem, or better yet, then braved the Wilds and some Necromancers to create a Black Soul Gem in a Necromancer altar to capture a potent Humanoid Soul... so you could enchant a weapon of such RAW... DESTRUCTIVE POWER THAT IT... couldn't even slay an Adoring Fan on first strike!?

 

Heck... you couldn't even sell it to make it worth all that trouble! Going to find the gem and weapon or armor, fighting the baddies on the way to the dungeon and again on the way back to the enchanting altar, then using the enchanting altar for exhorbitant amounts of cash to turn the item in question it into a magical paperweight!!!

 

If I'm going to spend all this time trying to create a cool weapon or a piece of armor, I'd like to also get the payoff for it. I'd figure that the better the item was enchanted or the more bonuses it would bestow, the more it would cost...? But in reality, it sold for LESS than it took for me to create. The same was true for potions...! If I created a potion with four difficult to find and combine herbs that had 6 positive bonuses or reinforcing stats for example... it didn't sell for any more than a regular potion that was created using 1 herb that had 1 effect.

 

Anyways, that's the commerce issues along with some enchanting problems I've got opinions on.

 

Thirdly, I'd like to see a change to the change in the way Baddies level up along with the player character. There should be a way to contain certain level creatures or characters to certain areas. I really lose the luster of being a kick-ass Mage or the incredible knight in shining armor when EVERYTHING around me levels up along with me. I'd rather go back to the dungeon that kicked my butt back when I was a level 3, now when I'm a level 33 and do some almighty arse kicking!!!

 

Fourth, voice acting. Try to get more than 5 people to do voice-overs... please. I'm sure you could have asked 500 people within the Morrowind modding community alone to do voiceovers for you for FREE! I'm a big Patrick Steward and Sean Bean fan, but maybe their paychecks could have gone towards additional voice actors. I'm all for quality... but in my opinion just with the sheer scale of Oblivion's NPC base, having only 5 - 7 voice actors was a poor choice... what about all the developer staff... could they have done some of the voice acting?

 

Fifth, the horse idea... funny how it can't carry anything... heck... I'm a level 35 that runs twice as fast as a horse... so what's the incentive of a horse?

 

Sixth, it's been mentioned before... as I'm sure my above rants have been... I can't fight from my horse? I must dismount to fight? Again... if I can run faster... what's the benefit?

 

Seventh: A bit of redundancy with the Oblivion Gates popping up everywhere....

 

I really saw no other issues with the game in general. I think that some people's mentionings of not having enough quests, or the quest marker issue is really a preference issue and is difficult to address. Do you make the game a 400 vested hours of playing time to complete? Or do you maintain some HEALTHY medium to the amount of time spent to complete the game. Do you make finding a quest item so difficult that it takes a month to find the item in question? Or do you make it easier for the crowd that's just there to see the game to completion. I think there are several items that will always be based on user base preference and is difficult to cater to. Not enough skills, or too many skills... I think Oblivion has struck a good medium.

 

I would like to see more than one magic ring per hand.

 

Maybe some cursed weapons that you have to get removed by your local Arcane University. Maybe bring back the ability to have to identify a weapon for it's magical properties before the benefits can be reaped.

 

Possibly give the ability to personalize the armor a bit more... Bring back the Pauldrons and Bracers for example.

 

On the whole Multiplayer or MMORPG note.

 

It'd be cool to have one other person with you, maybe a long LAN game to solve the quests etc... But, I think it would detract otherwise from the story and the playability of of future TES games if this game went the route of a full fledged MP or MMORPG. I personally enjoy playing FPS MP.... but I also enjoy the depth and variety Oblivion offers on a single player level. Something that may get marred by spending too much time worrying about how net-code gets affected by too much sound or too many special effects or the like. Single player or a Dual Player coop mode would be just fine in my opinion.

 

That's my two cents and I'm stickin' to 'em.

[Erse son]

Having played both Morrowind and Oblivion and enjoying them both, I will say this.Oblivion was made to attract new players to the action/rpg genre.While it did lead the player for the most part, the hand holding guided the new player so that frustration and disappointment were kept at a minimun.I lve Oblivion and accept it for what it is.I never expect too much from any game, therefore I really can't be upset unless a game is a complete dud!

[ArtDragon]

Oblivion is the first Elder Scroll game I've played. I am what you can call a casual gamer, who can appreciate a game but never truly master and understand it, who will begin the main quest at 30% difficulty but try to finish it at 60% (and got her ass kicked by Mankar how so many times...)

 

After finishing the game once, I tried Morrowind... and could not even kill the first monster I encountered (which was a Cliff Hanger, sadly). I can't play Morrowind, it is too heavy, slow, and it taint its inherent charm, the alien Dunmer world, the otherworldly feeling. I tried to love it, but I would always come back to Oblivion: while it's world isn't as much "beautiful" in term of pure art direction, I've always found Oblivion more charming, maybe because it looks more alive, maybe because the gameplay isn't as much restrictive: you can actually hit something when you are a novice or apprentice of blade/blunt/hand to hand. I feel more free, too, because the game does not force you to train right at the beginning just to be able to survive. I go my own pace.

 

Without any mods, Oblivion is a good game that can stand to it's critics. With the mods (and particularily, OOO which I've discovered recently), I can become much, much more than what it was. There's always something to uncover, whether it be a place, item, or snippet of story (like the three hidden chest in Pale Pass), and if you install a mod, it is like the world evolves, in the natural way of things. I like the smoothness of that.

 

What I did not appreciate was the overall lack of politics, real intrigues, wars, "grey areas". There's the good guys, the bad guys, and this is it. I know it can be difficult to introduce such complicated notions throughout dialogues, but there's where come the second main weakness of Oblivion: how they are completely dependent on spoken dialogues to explain everything. I am sure they could have done more, innovate, do more quest, more factions, even add in those politics and betrayals, if they had a dialogue system like... Morrowind. What I think about is a mix of voice and text: when NPCs are talking to each other or to many people at the same time, shouting, having a big speech, they would have spoken dialogues, but when you are talking personally to them, there would be a text window like in Morrowind. Now, I could re-read important parts without having to reload to re-listen to the dialogue. Complicated stories with many a choice wouldn't be so difficult to introduce. And for the modders, it would be less complicated to do factions mods and the such.

 

Other than that, there's the enchantment issue - I mean, I am archmage, master in three houses of magic, expert in most of the rest, and can't do better than like 20 fire damage on my weapon... that's low. And quite sad. The gates of Oblivion are dull, too: I would have liked dremora's armies and politics, outposts and cities, people taken prisonners or fighting at your side, and above all, random Dagon smithing! (you're in HIS realm, no?) Finally, there is the armor system issue, but it doesn't bother me as much, since what is offered is enough for me to compose a unique style for my warriors.

 

anyway, that was my two newbie cents.