Automatic Weapons ? Why ?

[tomomi1922]

And you thought I was speaking only from playing video game? I am not about to advertise myself in what I have done in my past, but I assure you I shot plenty of M16 in real life. Also did shotgun, some MP5, and some hand guns (and don't like it). I am just into the compact size of a SMG like MP5 because I can move fast and don't feel that muzzle weight yet it doesn't have the wonky feeling of a hand gun.

 

What I was suggesting is to put more emphasis in aiming and accuracy as a skill in game. Because FO4 assumes anyone can pick up a gun and shoot. Or like movies, someone never used a gun before, suddenly in dire situation that their son/lover/parents under threat, they can pick up a gun and perfectly hit all their targets. With a new gun, I still need to take a moment to figure out where the safety switch is, and how to load the gun. Most likely guns laying around are not chambered.

 

I can tell you straight up I have never used a gun in real situation where I have to kill someone. But in practice I am a marksman in a squad. I am the opposite of a machine gunner whose main job is to lay down cover fire. Of course, everyone shoots to kill, but my position, I am supposed to aim, shoot, kill. Ever heard of "one bullet one kill" motto? What it means is to make each shot a solid well aimed shot. Sure it will fire slower than automatic, but marksman can engage target very fast. I can do a 3 round "burst" by hold my breath to squeeze out 3 rounds. And for those who never shoot in real life, breathing is part of the shooting. Breath in, breath out, shoot. Breath in, breath out, shoot. My instructors would never allow me to do more rounds per hold because it will mess with my breathing pattern and affect accuracy.

So as you can see, my training is not exactly the rambo style hip shooting. What I also didn't tell you is, as a marksman, one drawback of shooting in auto is to draw too much attention to us. I don't call myself a sniper because technically snipers engage target at higher range and come with a spotter, usually travel only 2, in and out, and probably spend an entire 8 hours shooting 1 shot if lucky. Marksman engages target as the squad engage, a lot more shooting. This is best resembling a sniper in game: taking out most targets before they even get near us.

Bottom line is: your first bullet is well aimed. Your second bullet comes during a recoil, your 3rd bullet comes during the recoil of the first recoil, and so on. At 300m, this could mean you are shooting at the guy next to him already. And since 99% of the time enemy will not line up for you to spray down, you will be just hitting air. Or in hostage situation, you risk hitting hostage. So automatic = wasting bullet, hitting air, and taking longer to recover for next shot. Machine gunners do this because it's meant to be cover fire to pin enemy down so your own team can move. Sure it will be nice to hit someone, but that is not the purpose.

 

I have trained with US SWAT team before. They are even heavily emphasized on accuracy because they are police, not military. Collateral damage is a big no no since they are always called in to handle hostage situation. One instructor 100% forbid auto mode because his reason is nobody is ever that tight with their grouping that they can engage a target with the hostage 2 feet away and not risking the hostage. And you can't take that risk, it can be someone's mother, or the senator/president himself. Personally, I use auto mode when I turn blind corner. Things happen too fast to allow a well aimed shot. I think that makes me a bad shotgun user.

So no, I am not speaking from video game players' perspective.

[Moraelin]

Yes, well, while I won't debate much of that, but that's a bit of a different argument than the previous claims like that you'd end up pointing the gun at the ceiling, or that you'd have trouble hitting at 50 yards with burst fire. Those are blatant hyperbole IMHO, especially from someone with marksman training.

 

Plus, then you know first hand that a designated marksman engages targets at higher ranges than in the game. If I remember correctly, up to 600m or so, is it? Not from the USA, so I might be a bit off the mark there. That's like 3 squares on the pipboy map. It's approximately the distance from Oberland Station to Graygarden, or from Greentop Nursery to The Slog.

 

I'll freely admit that when you're engaging at a quarter of a mile, a semiauto designated marksman rifle, or generally semi-auto, is far more accurate than burst fire. But, you know, we're then talking a bit more than 50 to 100 yards, which is most outdoors engagements in the game. You can't even really SEE at a quarter of a mile, most of the time, in the game.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that an argument from analogy only holds in as much as the crucial aspects are indeed common. You can't really transfer information from entity/situation/whatever A to entity/situation/whatever B, if they're not all that similar where it counts. Yes, at the ranges where a designated marksman does the most good, or in SWAT hostage situations, no doubt, you're correct about preferring semi-auto. No argument there. But if the situations in the game are radically different, then different weapons and tactics would work better.

 

And finally, not that I will contest the fact that most of the auto fire is to pin the enemy, I'm just saying: think WHY it works. Because there is a serious risk to get hit if you don't take cover. If weapons were really as inaccurate as most games depict them, frankly, there'd be no reason to take cover.

[tomomi1922]

I think we are getting really muddy here.

Yes, for my training, I can engage distance target, but usually marksman don't go that far. Half a mile away is insane for me. Most of the time I don't get a scope. so half a mile means the whole human body is smaller than my front iron sight. And calibration comes in as extremely crucial. Most people don't realize but even off half an a milometer means to be off up to a meter at the target. And such battlefield is no longer important as we often engage under 500 yard. And marksman, by statistic, engage at some 200 yards the most. It goes like this, everyone runs around shooting at each other. Marksman calmly hide in the trees reporting position to teammate and systematically pick off targets ranging from the most dangerous, then most high value, to the last. Most dangerous being the target with weapons or position that can inflict the most damage to my team. And yeah, I have worked with people using both metric and English system, frankly it still confuses me.

 

What I said for FO4 is, there is no way someone who never touched a gun before can perform as well as someone who handle guns for years. I think take driving as an analogy, since more people can drive more than they can shoot. But because you drove a Toyota car 10 years ago, it doesn't mean you can jump right into a Porsche and can have a chance to out perform a professional racer, even on track. Btw, not sure where you are, but where I am, Toyota means "typical household car", basic and simple. I went on track myself a few times, all thanks to friends. Some of those guys think girls can't drive for s#*!. But I tracked a very decent lap time because I knew how to follow my line. But that being said, there is a lot more to it than just "going in circle". But I was still off by some 5-6 seconds from the top guy (on that track, not national). And in racing, 6 seconds means world of difference.

About the vertical muzzle climb, you will see more obvious in older guns. They are usually higher caliber and have less recoil control. If you ever experience a "run away gun" before, you will know. And I hope you don't, because you may end up killing someone. It's super rare (most of the time they just jam), but when that happens, especially with higher caliber, they tend to go muzzle up. And if you try to muscle it, the energy can push you to the side, this is where you can hurt someone. And if you slip and drop it on the ground, it can bounce and hit your leg. All will happen within less than a minute for assault rifles and SMG (magazine size is some 30 rounds). But that makes things even worse since most people realize what happens AFTER it happens. This, I have seen once (on a machine gun with some 500 rounds) and mostly heard from instructors as they teach us how to control one when it happens.

About taking cover, you do not know how accurate your enemy is until it is too late. And you don't take that chance. If you get shot, there is no stimpak that can "undo" it. It may not kill you right away, but it will be some lengthy consequences. I have seen some real police footage where someone had a shoot out with police, got hit in the heart. He ran to his car, drove off .... (and that was the end of that dashcam video). And the story reports that police found the guy bleeding to death a few miles down due to injury to his heart. So small arms will not outright drop someone even their wounds can be fatal. But do you want to take that chance? My first time shooting at a moving target (a deer, it was spooked), it was not as easy to hit the guy. So I can say it may NOT be as accurate as you think in a fire fight. But there is simply no way you can tell which shot is well aimed and which shot is not. And you will not just run around assuming nobody is aiming at you.

 

Now I am not saying I am a good FPS gamer. A lot of my training don't apply in games.

[Moraelin]

Well, it seems to me we're not disagreeing all that much, once we got past the hyperbole.

 

Yes, training DOES count. Otherwise we wouldn't bother training the army. But one of the protagonists is not just trained, but a war veteran, which has got to count for something. He's better trained than me or you, since neither of us were in actual combat.

 

And as I keep saying, we don't know what kind of training the wife got. For all we know, she could have gone to a shooting range since she was 12, because her dad was seriously into guns. Happens a lot, from what I gather, especially in the south. Could have been into competitive sports shooting since high-school. Could have been a cop before becoming a lawyer. Or whatever.

 

I just don't understand why people assume she's never touched a gun before. Essentially, we don't know, and that means just that: we don't know. If the results don't match the assumptions, the scientific thing to do is to adjust the assumptions accordingly. If she's good with a gun, the assumption that she never touched a gun must be false, innit?

 

And yes, muzzle climb would be a significant thing with a BAR or even M14. It's not THAT huge an issue with an M16, G36, or AK. Hell, it's not even that huge with an RPK-47 or minimi. Not the least because modern assault rifles have the barrel much lower in regard to the buttstock, so the recoil doesn't create as much torque.

 

Plus on an AK, that muzzle brake is actually a compensator. There's a reason it's basically a strip of metal UNDER the gun. The gas at the muzzle pushes the barrel down and a little to the left.

 

As for taking cover, sure, you don't know which bullet will get you. But it's basically game theory, so to speak. There has to be a decent chance to get hit by someone aiming at you, or we'd still stand up in the open like in smoothbore musket times. Is all I'm saying.

 

And finally, please. You might have noticed that I consistently defend the idea that the female protagonist can be just as good as the guy, so you don't have to convince me that a girl can drive or shoot as well as a guy. I'm already as convinced as it gets that, yes, a lot of girls can drive or shoot better than I do. Especially drive. I suck at that.

[tomomi1922]

I am sometimes sucked into story telling, not always relevant to having to shove down your throat to prove my point, sorry if that bothered you. I am not that old yet but I love listening to stories from old people (from my grandma, to war vet, to whoever). That rubs on me.

 

I am glad you know more about guns than most people playing games. I do not know that much about guns either. Like a baseball player, they hit the ball, they know what to do to hit it high and far, but they have no idea all the science behind it. I am not that dumb but I haven't been too bothered with all the science talk with guns either. But most people know so little that almost forces me to have to explain things more than needed.

 

Hey, ever watched Equilibrium? I am in love with that film. My dad is an Aikido master and he has been contracted as special force trainer. What relevant to our conversation and Equilibirum movie is that modern gun combat is like a new type of martial art. All the feet work, body movement, posture.... are just as important. Equilibrium aims to train a martial art using hand guns as weapon where all its movement are designed to minimize exposure and maximize kill zone. In real life of course it is not that fancy, but it involves all the work, regardless. This is why I talk so much about breathing technique and all that stuff. Most people here have no idea why breathing has anything to do with shooting.

 

I played the wife character in the game too. Haven't got a chance to play as main character. In their defenses, it is a 1960 kind of setting, and most house wives are "professional house wives" and Nora is portrayed just as such, with no back story of what she has been beside being professional housewife. But even with Nate (is it Nate?), just being war veteran doesn't always mean much. Unless he is some top of the line commando. Was there even an explanation on that? But either way, it is quite far fetched that either of these 2 (war vet or not) can take on a Courser easily. I mean they took out a whole group of Gunners with ease. And these guys aren't newbies. Personally I was hoping Courser would be a bit more challenging (without being bullet sponge) but I don't think FO4 game mechanic allows for more room to expand to that direction.

Bottom line is, the combat system is rather weak. Mass Effect 2 and 3 have way better and more interesting combat system. It is fun when you can get wrecked by even a low end mob if you get caught in the open. And I am always constantly surprised by many different ways people can get things done in that game. The biggest fail is me looking at the Thompson and its pathetic output, giving to settlers for roleplaying purpose: my female settlers often get lower recoil weapons while the male settlers get the hard hitting bolt action weapon, with a bayonet. That gun had been a legend among US military in WW2 as well as the mobsters (maybe only in movies).

[Moraelin]

Well, indeed, combat technique has always been a martial art, pretty much by definition. Whether it's with a katana, or the rich tradition of European techniques with a longsword or pollax or whatever, or with a gun, seems to me like it's a martial art all right.

 

Maybe Equilibrium is... not the best illustration of actual techniques, though :tongue:

 

And yeah, no games really do it justice. I mean, Skyrim also doesn't really compare to how they actually used swords back when.

 

Edit: also, well, it's not storytelling as such that bothers me. It's just that the myth that women can't drive is annoying me no end. Well, at least enough for me to clarify that I don't want to be mistaken with THOSE guys :tongue:

Edited February 13, 2016 by Moraelin

[tomomi1922]

Well, indeed, combat technique has always been a martial art, pretty much by definition. Whether it's with a katana, or the rich tradition of European techniques with a longsword or pollax or whatever, or with a gun, seems to me like it's a martial art all right.

 

Maybe Equilibrium is... not the best illustration of actual techniques, though :tongue:

 

And yeah, no games really do it justice. I mean, Skyrim also doesn't really compare to how they actually used swords back when.

 

Edit: also, well, it's not storytelling as such that bothers me. It's just that the myth that women can't drive is annoying me no end. Well, at least enough for me to clarify that I don't want to be mistaken with THOSE guys :tongue:

 

Ah no, I didn't ask people to go watch Equilibrium as a real demonstration. But the concept is there, and it is better than just throwing big muscle guys into action movies. Biggest muscle = scariest. To me, that means a slow moving easy hitting target.

 

I am first to admit, Asian women can't drive for s#*!. And it's not because they are dumb. Most of the people who cannot drive are fully capable of being good drivers, or even racers, if they put their mind into it. But the reasons they can't drive is that they presume driving as a nuisance. To them: hit the gas, go, hit the brake, stop, it's that simple. I once sat in a girlfriend's car who kept accelerating down hill at night on a mountain road. She had no idea what centripetal force means, but only wanted to understand "drive faster = get home faster". I counted about 5 times we almost ran off the cliff. My face turned pale blue witnessing her complaining why her car was not handling well. She was practically drifting due to excessive speed down hill, without knowing. I took off seatbelt to jump on top of her fighting for the wheel and the brake. We crashed to the "safe" side (instead of flying off the cliff). To this day she maintains "Cut the jumbo talk, I was driving just fine and you had to crash our car". Needless to say, we are no longer friend. She still owes me for saving both of our lives. That 200 meter dive into the sea would have been nasty (or maybe there wouldn't be water right under us). And who is she? Software engineer working for a large corporation, with a master degree. So she is fully capable of being a good driver if she puts her mind into it.

 

The more non-extreme cases happen almost daily when I hang out with other girls. They often park their car with some 20+ degree offset, look outside, nod "good enough" and walk off. One of them even banged their brand new Mercedez Benz against another car. I looked at her as if she just committed a crime, she calmly looked at me and said "cars are tools, big deal". She would have the opposite reaction if her Gucci bag was involved.

 

Btw, this is in California. Keep good distance if you sense the driver around you is Asian or Indian. I do the same too, I value my life. Among my Asian friends, we have this secrets. If you do not want to be labeled as bad driver, back in your car when you park. In parking lots, if you, in California, see a line of cars backed in parked in parking lots, it says "we know how to drive, park near us and your cars don't get dinged". The other Asians think we are show-off, but we are just protecting ourselves.

 

I guess I am not normal. I am into sport bikes, guns, cars, and video games. My only LV bag is a gift from my mother and currently encased in a glass display in my room (no kidding).

[Moraelin]

Well, I guess we base our inferences on different experiences. Plus, I suppose it might also be a cultural thing. Over here, at the same miles driven, according to actual insurance data, women cause half as many accidents as the guys. And most of the complaints I heard from guys were more like that the gal in front is obeying the speed limit, and preventing him from driving like an idiot. In the USA, well, hell if I know how people drive over there. Could be that you have a point about how it is over there.

 

Normality is also rather debatable these days, unless we're talking people who put pineapple on their pizza :wink: There is a much larger allowed deviation from the baseline without people thinking you've made a pact with Satan. Just liking bikes or video games is not even registering as not being normal. Hell, my old retired mum likes motorbikes and is a rather bloothirsty PvP-er in World Of Warcraft. Spends half the day in the battlegrounds :tongue:

 

As for Hollywood.... yeah, we can agree that accurate depiction of anything is not their forte. Seeing John Wick, a supposed super-hitman, hold his gun sideways was just stupid, for example.

[tomomi1922]

Where are you from again?

I was in London once, and the women there seem very capable driver (observing how they park is a great indicator). With my limited experience, the women in London drive better than most typical men in California. Women in Japan also drive better, not because they are better, but because most people do not need to drive in Japan, and the one who do drive are good drivers. The rest just take subways.

 

Not sure about John Wick, but I literately screamed in horror toward the finale of Transformer. Mr. Comando just had the big idea to drive a bike through the crotch of a transformer and shot a rocket launcher up his crotch which is only around 10 feet up? His contribution was quite minuscule comparing to the 2 jetfighters also shooting 2 missiles at the same transformer. And all that explosion at such close distance would turn him into meat pie. That is Michael Bay for you. And people around me in theater tried to comfort me thinking I am some weak hearted girl who can't take a normal action movie scene. A cute Irish guy in the end kindly wanted to refer me to therapy. I wanted to say "there is really no therapy for bad action sequence". But I am a very introverted person in real life and didn't say a thing back to him.

 

And from time to time, I had to sprint like hell to a corner, dive in just miliseconds before an assaulttron explodes. I love that 10.5x damage message, and I love running away from the explosion. Like the one in Institute's supermutant wing, that made me smile. I love the explosion in FO4, not sure if they did consider the environment, but I few after the big explosion (like every game can do), smoke also creeps out through the doors. Once a mutant suicider met Dogmeat inside Redrocket Truckstop, it went up a huge explosion (I have a mod that magnifies explosion x2) and pressurized smoke just went out through the door (but not through the wall). Isn't that awesome or what?
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For the topic, I was trying to role play Silver Shroud, don the outfit, hat, and carry justice like the way Kent wanted. I am level 80, with full armor, and most of Silver Shroud targets are level 30s, why not? Even with upgraded receiver, Silver submachine gun was pathetic. I must have emptied some 200 rounds on a Legendary raider and wasted 8 stimpak on myself to barely got her life down to half. In the end, I had no patience left and pulled out Deliverer and 1 shot her with her remaining half HP. I have no perk in either automatic weapon nor pistol. I wonder what really happens if I put full perks into automatic weapon (200% damage) , going up against mobs at my level, it may perform just as good as other weapon system without perk. This is so pathetic.

 

I am playing on Very Hard mode. No Survival mode because I don't feel like fighting bullet sponge. In Very Hard mode, in full armor (maxed out Combat Armor + Ballistic Weave), a level 10 can do plenty of damage to me if I am not careful. So this is the right mode for me.

Edited February 14, 2016 by tomomi1922

[Moraelin]

Germany, as is the insurance data I mentioned. Come to think of it, we also tend to have very good public transportation, so you may be onto something there.

 

I haven't seen Transformers, but yeah, even the idea of shooting a bazooka upwards makes me cringe. The one thing we were taught the most was never have a wall behind you when you shoot the damn thing, or you'll fry yourself, and I figure, having the floor behind the jet ain't any better.

 

About the Silver Shround, well, not only I'll agree, but basically now you know why I made my own silverplated SMG receivers :tongue: