Comparisons with Skyrim

[BadReplicant]

 

 

This. The towns really don't measure up at all. The companions had less depth in Skyrim but their were a LOT more people to interact with with more interesting stories and quest lines. We can all imagine a better Diamond City easily. We can also imagine how much a couple more towns would've done for this game. It is severely lacking.

This game is an open world shooter adventure game. You can say it's a better open world shooter adventure game than Skyrim but that's it. Map, towns, character, quests, loot, story. What most people play an RPG for is just poor.

RPG is not just role playing though.

RPG stands for role playing game. I understand that this is still an RPG, but it's lacking in comparison to previous titles. Sure some people are gonna like it. I just don't understand it being lauded as it is. As far as RPGs go there is a lack of depth in this game more than other titles.

 

 

And I keep seeing that you "discover" something around every corner. What does it matter when it's all the same?

How it is the same? The girl in the cabin, the old man in this cave, the mayor bunker, the old state house, the gallery, the quarry and many more...they all hardly the same.

 

It's not just the areas but what do you do when you get there? Kill the enemies, Look at corpses, and listen to cassettes? It's all lazy. It's a game made out of all the little extra things you'd find in the other games. They're 5 second set pieces. It's always telling "hey look at what used to be here" or "see how this corpse got here". Yeah It's the same crap. It doesn't take a genius to come up with the s#*! they write, either. It's like they ran out of time and needed to throw something together. OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

[Moraelin]

And exactly how was it different in Skyrim? What deep interactions did you engage in with the Silver Hand at Driftshade Refuge, for example? What deep interaction choices did you have with either the bandits or the draugr in Bleak Falls Barrow? With the vampires in Movarth's Lair? The undead in Jurgen Windcaller's tomb?

 

And all those are non-radiant quests.

 

Or exactly what deep RP oportunities did you have in either the defense or assault of Whiterun? Of Solitude? Of Windhelm? ANY of the forts you had to fight through as part of that war? ANY of the dwarven ruins?

 

Could you just pull a "chill, I'm a necromancer just like you" in Wolfskull cave, or just kill everyone? Could you pull a "wait, I was actually on your side all along; I'm just infiltrating those other guys" in Korvanjund?

 

Or. What. The. HELL?

 

At its heart, 90% of the locations in Skyrim were just as much "kill the enemies, look at the corpses", and... err... not even have a cassette to listen to. WTH is the difference?

 

As complaints getting dumber and dumber goes, few things beat complaining about the game working just like any other game, as if that was a difference. It's exactly like if I were to start complaining that my cat doesn't lay eggs, TOTALLY UNLIKE all other cats, who... err... also don't lay eggs.

[Athanasa]

It'd be nice of more NPCs had... voices, personalities?

 

Names. I think one of my issues is names. Possibly one of the easiest things to fix, I hope.

1. Make raiders gangs into GANGS. Prefix / replace the "Raider" part of their name with the gang they're with. Red Psycho, Red Scavenger... I forgot the other raider gang names. But, they're there in lore. Then, I can wander around and go, "Oh, this is X territory. They seem awfully close to Y's base over there..." [With all the Raiders being glued to the same faction, doesn't this mean we can't have actual in-game Raider v Raider gang wars?]
2. Give Settlers names. Randomly generated human names. Hell, take them from the list Codsworth can say. Mechanically, nothing changes. But at least then your Settlements feel a little more like they're inhabited by people, rather than face-swapped clones. [Now, I remember I stuck Mary to farming and I know she already has a bed... But I don't remember giving anything to Steve. STEVE! GET SOME CARROTS YOU PEASANT!]

I'm not going to say give a name for every Diamond City guard and Brotherhood Soldier NPC. That'd be silly. And they're not involved with you. Settlers are.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Athanasa

[Moraelin]

Well, I'm going to agree there. In fact, here's one thing I never understood about Bethesda: you know how they have to record each line in every voice that can say it, right? Like you can have a generic woman saying they decided to support the minuteman, or a generic man, or Abernathy, or a ghoul male, or a ghoul female, etc? Why the hell not make some minor variation of what they say, for each voice? It would do wonders to mask the repetition. Yet Beth never does that in any game.

 

I mean, even in the spirit of comparing it to Skyrim or Oblivion, there were hundreds of identical lines recorded by the orc voice actors, male and female, and by the khajit voice actors, male and female, etc. Why not make them say it in a slightly different wording? It doesn't cost more to record those.

 

And if we're talking about the topic of the thread, actually FO4 has more distinct gangs (e.g., the Forged, the Gunners, etc) than Skyrim ever had. But yeah, it would make sense to have more of that.

[BadReplicant]

And exactly how was it different in Skyrim? What deep interactions did you engage in with the Silver Hand at Driftshade Refuge, for example? What deep interaction choices did you have with either the bandits or the draugr in Bleak Falls Barrow? With the vampires in Movarth's Lair? The undead in Jurgen Windcaller's tomb?

 

And all those are non-radiant quests.

 

Or exactly what deep RP oportunities did you have in either the defense or assault of Whiterun? Of Solitude? Of Windhelm? ANY of the forts you had to fight through as part of that war? ANY of the dwarven ruins?

 

Could you just pull a "chill, I'm a necromancer just like you" in Wolfskull cave, or just kill everyone? Could you pull a "wait, I was actually on your side all along; I'm just infiltrating those other guys" in Korvanjund?

 

Or. What. The. HELL?

 

At its heart, 90% of the locations in Skyrim were just as much "kill the enemies, look at the corpses", and... err... not even have a cassette to listen to. WTH is the difference?

 

As complaints getting dumber and dumber goes, few things beat complaining about the game working just like any other game, as if that was a difference. It's exactly like if I were to start complaining that my cat doesn't lay eggs, TOTALLY UNLIKE all other cats, who... err... also don't lay eggs.

There was a reason behind being in most places in Skyrim. To get Dragon claws, learn shouts, to find a villager's lost sword, special armor and weapons in specific places with questlines, special enemy battles, blah blah blah.

 

And if we're talking about the topic of the thread, actually FO4 has more distinct gangs (e.g., the Forged, the Gunners, etc) than Skyrim ever had. But yeah, it would make sense to have more of that.

No there aren't more distinct gangs.

 

It's funny you call my complaint stupid but you actually have no desire to think critically or fact check yourself. You say there are no RP opportunities in the assault of Whiterun, Solitude, Windhelm-> after you choose to do those things??? Pick your side in the war? Bleak falls barrow served a purpose. Morvarth's lair served a purpose. Jurgen Windcaller's Tomb definitely served a purpose. They were all quests with stories and dialog, worthwhile rewards, unique bosses, and not just some cheesy hollow cassette. It's not like I intend on playing an RPG to negotiate with every possible enemy. That's a stupid argument.

 

Don't insult my intelligence. These responses just keep getting dumber and dumber.

[Moraelin]

Yes, and here you have reasons like getting more abilities via bobbleheads, magazines, etc. Find unique weapons or armours. (E.g., the silver shroud set.) Find some villager's stolen sword (e.g., Finch) or their daughter's locket (e.g., Abernathy) or just some paint on a wall (Diamond City), or rescue their kidnapped wife (all over the place.) Find the missing detective. Rescue the bartender. Etc.

 

And if choosing a side is your idea of RP, yeah, here you get to choose between three sides in a war.

 

Seems to me like even if you move the goalpost (because that wasn't your previous complaint) to "but in Skyrim I had a reason to be there," guess what? I had just as good a reason to be in just about any place in Fallout 4.

 

Pretending that those count in Skyrim but somehow the same totally doesn't in Fallout 4 IS either stupid or dishonest. And keeping making a butthurt fuss about the same nonsense won't make it any less nonsense.

[BadReplicant]

Yes, and here you have reasons like getting more abilities via bobbleheads, magazines, etc. Find unique weapons or armours. (E.g., the silver shroud set.) Find some villager's stolen sword (e.g., Finch) or their daughter's locket (e.g., Abernathy) or just some paint on a wall (Diamond City), or rescue their kidnapped wife (all over the place.) Find the missing detective. Rescue the bartender. Etc.

 

And if choosing a side is your idea of RP, yeah, here you get to choose between three sides in a war.

 

Seems to me like even if you move the goalpost (because that wasn't your previous complaint) to "but in Skyrim I had a reason to be there," guess what? I had just as good a reason to be in just about any place in Fallout 4.

 

Pretending that those count in Skyrim but somehow the same totally doesn't in Fallout 4 IS either stupid or dishonest. And keeping making a butthurt fuss about the same nonsense won't make it any less nonsense.

The game is lacking. It's apparent. It's obvious. You're the one who started insulting me out of no where and then you call me butthurt? Project much? I didn't "move any goalposts" that is just a lack of reading comprehension. You insulted me; i extrapolated and gave a short explanation.

 

I'll make simpler so that we all understand: If you took all of Skyrim's people, places, and things and put them next to all of Fallout's people, places, and things, you would find Skyrim had a greater number as well as more interesting people, places, and things.

 

Well I'm all douched out for the day. Feel free to get the last word and say that I'm deflecting because I didn't give you a five page thesis or a side by side comparison of the locations you offered (which would be even more evidence to my claim that you'd ignore). Have a Good'n.

[charwo]

 

Yeah, and that's the thing I like exploring. I like the greenery, crawling through the brush.

While I respect the idea that you like green stuff -- and really, it's just as valid as any other personal taste -- that isn't all there is to exploring. Exploring my way through a collapsed building to the roof, over a fallen power pole to the next roof, up some stairs, an elevator, an outside scaffolding and another elevator to see what's on top of a skyscraper is just as much exploring. In fact more, since more stuff tends to happen or be there to play with, than just some bushes and the occasional rabbit or fox. It may not be the landscape you like to take a stroll through, but it IS exploring.

 

Besides, even Skyrim wasn't all that in that aspect. For example, there's a whole huge chunk of just snow south of Dawnstar.

 

But there's more to my criticism than forests and s***. The nine hold cities were all unique, hand crafted, they felt alive, like there was more to explore. Some imagination is required for the vastness of cities, but the burden was a lot less in Windhelm than in Megaton. Not to mention a town built around a quarry or in the Corvega Plant would have been AWESOME! And sensible considering the fortification quotient. It's not that Fallout is two Whiteruns that gets me the most, it's that Bunker Hilll, Diamond City and Goodnieghbor are COLLECTIVELY the size of Markarth, just one of the Jarlholds.

And here just the Trinity Tower alone is bigger than Morthal, another capital hold. The Institute is bigger than Markarth, if that's your platinum standard. Or Libertalia is bigger than Solitude OR Windhelm. So is the Corvega Factory, for that matter. Etc.

 

And if those don't look hand-crafted and different from each other to you, I have to wonder: have you even played the game enough to reach them?

 

Or if we're talking settlements where you can interact with the people or robots, does the General Atomics Gallery not feel handcrafted to you you? Because it sure as hell does to me.

 

This is a laugh. Really. Libertalia is not a city, it's a shooting gallery for of raiders. Plus, like all places in Fallout it has one of three aesetics to it: lazy bum Mad Max bullshit where it goies out of it's way to be nonsensically ugly, which is Libertailia, the laziest, most pre-fab version of corporate modernism possible or run down underground dungeon. Nothing's new, nothing's rebuilt, nothing makes sense.Now, there's nothing original in Fallout 4: everything is genre by the numbers, no playing around with tropes, no subverting expectations. But that's was true in Skyrim. I actually have four types of complaints in Fallout 4

 

1. Things Bethesda didn't learn from New Vegas

2. Things Bethesda didn't learn from Skyrim

3. Lazy world building and design

4. It's not a f*#@ing RPG (but then again neither was Morrowind)

 

Markarth, makes sense. It was hand made to fit in with the needs and possibilities of it's time and place: in this case, a repurposed Dwemer city that provides excellent defense and preexisting infrastructure in a dangerous border region. It's also f*#@ing beautiful. They cared about this place, it made sense in it's context. Shooting galleries I don't care about: if you've done one dungeon crawl you've done them all. Libertailia, Trintiy Tower, they didn't give a s#*! about these places, they thought, HEY, THIS SOUNDS KEWL.

 

Let me take Libertailia to show you the missed opportunities. The notion of a bunch of still floating boats lashed together is moronic: Those boats are way WAY more valuable out to sea being used to catch fish or Mireluks or being pirates. The big ship.....ships don't sink like that unless they break in half, and they certainly don't stay upright if the rocks catch them. This could have been a Somalia style pirate ring using the intact freighter as a mothership. Or maybe you could have tried to convince Gabriel to rejoin the Minutemen, or maybe built a machine shop at your settlements so you could repair and replace their damaged goods, maybe even coaxing them out of piracy/raiding all together. Treated the raiders there as the rational actors Gabriel's terminal suggests they were instead of two legged skeet. But this would require giving a s#*!. Bethesda deeply cares about Elder Scrolls, even if they aren't good RPGs they are lovingly made fantasy games.

 

I'd be willing to accept this more if Fallout 4 was 20 years after the bombs, but but this is 200 years. That's a missed opportunity.

[Boombro]

 

Let me take Libertailia to show you the missed opportunities. The notion of a bunch of still floating boats lashed together is moronic: Those boats are way WAY more valuable out to sea being used to catch fish or Mireluks or being pirates.

Why would radiers became fisherman?That makes no sense.

 

And pirates? Don't get me wrong, fallout pirates is a cool idea, but for what? Fallout world is not rich with traders roaming the sea with ships filled with cargo, and ship handling is hard, and controlling a fleet is a very far fetched for a raiders group.

 

Also what about power for the ships?

 

 

4. It's not a f***ing RPG (but then again neither was Morrowind)

Even if fo4 was stripped of all RP and quests, it would still be an RPG.

 

RPG doesn't mean RP value and it only true for a very limited numbers of games. RPG is you being someone in a world and you interacting that world in some way or another. So even borderlands is an RPG.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Boombro

[charwo]

 

 

Let me take Libertailia to show you the missed opportunities. The notion of a bunch of still floating boats lashed together is moronic: Those boats are way WAY more valuable out to sea being used to catch fish or Mireluks or being pirates.

Why would radiers became fisherman?That makes no sense.

 

And pirates? Don't get me wrong, fallout pirates is a cool idea, but for what? Fallout world is not rich with traders roaming the sea with ships filled with cargo, and ship handling is hard, and controlling a fleet is a very far fetched for a raiders group.

 

Also what about power for the ships?

 

 

4. It's not a f***ing RPG (but then again neither was Morrowind)

Even if fo4 was stripped of all RP and quests, it would still be an RPG.

 

RPG doesn't mean RP value and it only true for a very limited numbers of games. RPG is you being someone in a world and you interacting that world in some way or another. So even borderlands is an RPG.

 

I've played Borderlands, I like Borderlands, but in no way is it an RPG. It has an RPG-like skill tree and that's it. RPGs have dialogue trees and different outcomes and actual character immersion, mostly through good dialogue branching and lots and lots of it. Not choose your quest bullshit but actual character interactions, only some of which involves pulling a trigger on someone.

 

As to why 'why would raiders go fishing?' The answer is why would PEOPLE go fishing as opposed to raiding? The reasons are very simple: fishing and trading are much safer and steadier forms of making a living than raiding, and then also, raiding is not a sustainable way to make a living. It's a short sighted, Malthusian process of being a parasite upon productive people. Historically, raiders, like say Vikings, were younger, less successful brothers of traders and fishermen who saw opportunity in raiding as opposed to little opportunity working for their chiefs/older brothers for little pay. But make no mistake, raiding was a secondary choice: trade was safer and more profitable in the long run. The more successful raiders in any era always used the loot to go legit: Francis Drake's plundering of the Spanish Mane comes to mind. Most pirates who wanted to survive long term got letters of marquis and then settled down to farming somewhere. A couple of true psychos like Blackbeard tried this but couldn't control their sociopathic impulses and were promptly killed.

 

The difference between Fallout 4's raiders and say any pirate of the Caribbean, is that plunder is not forthcoming in the Commonwealth. And even if you are getting protection money from Bunker Hill, it behooves you to do something productive with that time. Either doing something directly useful like fishing/trading/farming or indirectly, by becoming warlords and administering a safe haven for productive elements. This is exactly what being "The General" is for the SS, minus the command and control. Bandits, like in Skyrim make sense because while they are completely parasitic, they are active OUTLAWS and risk life and limb with every encounter centers of trade. Banditry is caused by oppression, real or perceived by a government that extracts. Bandits are opting out because there's enough surplus to be taken and they can't hope to match forces with the government, SKyrim's case, the Jarls. But the real money is always in BEING the government. Successful bandits become warlords, meaning they realize they must protect people in order to exploit them. This is, while unfair and high handed, generally beneficial to both parties.

 

Bethesda doesn't give a thought to it's economics, and you really need to not give a s#*! about economics in order to make traditional fantasy, but at least when you crib notes from medieval Europe, you get most of the details right. But if you want to tell a post-apocalyptic story right past the initial point of collapse, understanding economics and how people organize themselves spontaneously is absolutely critical. The kind of coked up evil psychotic ISIS type of banditry is only sustainable for a couple of years. If this was 2090 in Fallout's timeline, I couldn't fault them for the short sighted stupidity of the raiders and the gunners.

 

All crime, all banditry, all government, all non-food producing activities are parasitic on food producers. Thus to get back to the original idea of way would the people of Libertailia fish rather than laze about while getting paid not to raid? So they could use that money to trade for supplies they actually need and so they have a steady food supply for themselves so they can spend more of that protection money on guns, ammo and booze.