Libyan War

[HeyYou]

What about a civil war in the USA with gazillion of dead civilians in the streets and trice as much on the run towards the closed Mexican and Canadian border - and nobody in the outerworld wants to be engaged in it, not even in humanitarian aid, saying "this is not our problem"? State courage is the collective, organized form of what? Yes - of civil courage. If we have no such civil courage, well then we'd better pray daily "Let this cup of wrath pass from me!"

 

Civil courage? Involving ourselves is yet another war is a "good thing"??????

 

Looking away as lifestyle - is that a "good thing"? Doubtlessly not in the long run for sooner or later oneself draws the shortest straw. And then what?

The meaning is not that we should sit on a watchtower round the clock looking for serious problems. But when somebody cries for help, he shouldn't fall on deaf ears only because it is much safer to remain seated in our oasis of calm smoking an innocent pipe as if nothing has happened. Straightforwardness is in demand wherever civilians come under heavy pressure, not the widespread hypocricy of today - some get help, the rest gets nothing.

 

So, whom do we support? Shall we answer every call for aid, to overthrow a government? Who decides which governments need overthrown, and which do not? Are there not many other countries, with far worse human rights violations, that are also in rebellion? Should we be supporting them as well? If so, why aren't we?

 

Nope. America needs to figger out that we are NOT the worlds police force, and we are NOT the final authority on what governments shall fall, and which shall stand. After all, by your reasoning, are we not giving tacit approval to those governments that are far worse than Libya? One of the major reasons a fair percentage of that section of the world hates us, is BECAUSE we stick our noses into everyone else's business. My major issue with it is, we are far more willing to help ANYONE else, regardless of the expense, than we are to help our own people right here at home.

 

As far as revolution at home goes though, not bloody likely. Americans are too fat, dumb, and happy, not to mention, to lazy..... to do anything about our own governments abuses of its own citizens. The government just tells us its for our own good, and we nod and smile, and accept it. (yes, I AM an american....... not that I am overly proud of what our country has become.....)

[DeTomaso]

A call for aid and a call to overthrow a foreign government are two very different animals. The latter is exclusively the business of the locals, not ours. But the former is the business of all of us, not just some of us and shouldn't depend on our "good" or "bad" relations to the government in question that has gone mad, or we'll be named hypocrites, by good reasons.

 

Of course, the US is not the world police, not only because it doesn't look good, it doesn't work at all and has just negative effects. More likely It is up to us all either to accept what happens or to act on it as a collective. Those who cook their own soup now and then may perhaps change the flags, so that I don't keep confusing the Russians with the Soviets anymore. We simply should stop these shortsighted childish games, they just call for a backlash and are less profitable in the end. This goes for all important states, not just for Russia as in the case of Syria, it goes for the US in the case of Bahrain as well and there are many other cases, in which we tolerate the mad actions of regimes simply because our state relations are so wonderful. They are indeed wonderful, because our money miraculously feeds these regimes, keeps them alive, for whatever reason.

This directly leads to home policy. You wanna become President? Fine, but not in this way. First come we, our wealth and our economy, and with the rest of the money you may feed your private zoo over there. Don't be too patriotic, folks, cos that may breed internal blindness, be more egoistic, figuratively. Keep your leaders on a shorter leash so that they may remember you much much better.

 

If it ever would come to the worst in America, you wouldn't be left alone, believe me.

Edited May 20, 2011 by DeTomaso

[HeyYou]

A call for aid and a call to overthrow a foreign government are two very different animals. The latter is exclusively the business of the locals, not ours. But the former is the business of all of us, not just some of us and shouldn't depend on our "good" or "bad" relations to the government in question that has gone mad, or we'll be named hypocrites, by good reasons.

 

Of course, the US is not the world police, not only because it doesn't look good, it doesn't work at all and has just negative effects. More likely It is up to us all either to accept what happens or to act on it as a collective. Those who cook their own soup now and then may perhaps change the flags, so that I don't keep confusing the Russians with the Soviets anymore. We simply should stop these shortsighted childish games, they just call for a backlash and are less profitable in the end. This goes for all important states, not just for Russia as in the case of Syria, it goes for the US in the case of Bahrain as well and there are many other cases, in which we tolerate the mad actions of regimes simply because our state relations are so wonderful. They are indeed wonderful, because our money miraculously feeds these regimes, keeps them alive, for whatever reason.

This directly leads to home policy. You wanna become President? Fine, but not in this way. First come we, our wealth and our economy, and with the rest of the money you may feed your private zoo over there. Don't be too patriotic, folks, cos that may breed internal blindness, be more egoistic, figuratively. Keep your leaders on a shorter leash so that they may remember you much much better.

 

If it ever would come to the worst in America, you wouldn't be left alone, believe me.

 

Trouble is, it seems that our government can't quite figger that out. They still have the view that the US is a "world power", and that what we say, goes. That hasn't been the case for the better part of a decade now. The US is just another player in the game, granted, we still have some relevance, as the largest consumer in the world.... but, even that is changing. We keep exporting our jobs, and soon, no one will have the money to buy all the foreign made products on the store shelves now. But, the government either can't, or won't, see that either, and things will continue down the same road, until the US becomes just another third world country.

[evilneko]

Back on topic...

 

Today makes it 60 days from initiation of force against Libya without congressional approval. The approval should have been sought before hand but technically the president had 60 days (if given a VERY generous reading of the law). Tomorrow this will officially become an illegal military action in the eyes of US law.

 

Maybe Obama figured on the world ending tomor--er, today I guess--and decided not to ask for authorization since it can't possibly last that long. :teehee:

 

This post meant very obviously tongue-in-cheek. I might make a serious post if the world doesn't end.

[MrDoctorDD]

I voted against supporting the war, I think the US and NATO should butt out.

 

Let them deal with their own issues.

 

We (The US), keeps getting flak for helping out nations, (though most of the time the term help is very subjective).

 

Let them deal with their own problems, if they become an issue for the rest of the world, we should watch, point and laugh.

 

We should aid those countries that need help for survival, only after we take care of our own country, in which we do not.

[evilneko]

Based on this Washington Post article, it sure sounds like Congress really doesn't much care when the War Powers Resolution is ignored. A mere dozen congresscritters have even bothered to ask Obama about it. A dozen! Out of 535!

 

Not that that makes it right, but it does raise a good point: the people pretty much don't care (if they did, they'd make their representatives and senators care). This raises a further question: when would the people care? A year? Two? When do the American people wake up and say, "Hey, wait just a cotton-pickin' minute here!"

 

Instead we just watch the nightly news, shake our fists at the TV screen and curse the party currently in power (or even sometimes the party not in power, or both), then flip to American Idol and forget all about it.

 

And then come election day we either skip our civic duty, or go to the polls and vote for the same party we've always voted for, even if a few months ago we were shaking our fists and cursing that party.

 

Okay, this turned into a general American Politics rant, I'm going to stop now.

[csgators]

Based on this Washington Post article, it sure sounds like Congress really doesn't much care when the War Powers Resolution is ignored. A mere dozen congresscritters have even bothered to ask Obama about it. A dozen! Out of 535!

 

Not that that makes it right, but it does raise a good point: the people pretty much don't care (if they did, they'd make their representatives and senators care). This raises a further question: when would the people care? A year? Two? When do the American people wake up and say, "Hey, wait just a cotton-pickin' minute here!"

 

Instead we just watch the nightly news, shake our fists at the TV screen and curse the party currently in power (or even sometimes the party not in power, or both), then flip to American Idol and forget all about it.

 

And then come election day we either skip our civic duty, or go to the polls and vote for the same party we've always voted for, even if a few months ago we were shaking our fists and cursing that party.

 

Okay, this turned into a general American Politics rant, I'm going to stop now.

 

Don't stop now, you're on a roll. I agree completely. Most people are to busy worrying about what Snookie is doing than who our military is dropping bombs on it would seem.

[grannywils]

EvilNeko, I agree with CS. Don't stop now; you're on a roll. It seems as if nobody cares, doesn't it? I've been known to carry on about "we the people"; but you're right; we need to get off our collective butts and make our Constitution work the way it was meant to. Why should our congresspeople do anything since we never seem to ask them to? We're all sitting around shaking our fists; pounding our shoes on tables (for those of you old enough to remember that particular reference), speaking eruditely to one another on fora (is that really the plural of forum?) such as these. But when push comes to shove, we ain't doin' bupkis. We kin talk the talk, but we need to walk the walk. That's all of us; we the people as well as our elected representatives. And if they don't, damn it, unelect them next damn time.

 

I know there are many who don't believe this system can work anymore, and most of the time you can number me among them. I've believed for longer than I care to admit that the corporate world runs this country. But, I do still believe in the Constitution, and I do believe that it can work. But only if we want it badly enough to make it work.

 

Once again, it sounds like we've gone a bit off topic, but in this case not so much. We should have a say in what America is doing around the world. And not just here on a Nexus forum, but in The United States Senate and House of Representatives. They are working for us. And mostly, they are not working, in my humble opinion.

[csgators]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/3/bipartisan-congress-rebuffs-obama-libya-mission/

 

bout time, not that it means much as it's a non-binding resolution but at least something non-partisan passed this congress. :wallbash:

[evilneko]

I was going to post about that. CNN had a bit about it after they finished talking about John Edwards doing something or other. The way the talking head (random "news" anchor I guess, not one of their normal commentators) described how it was coming from both sides of the aisle, he sounded pretty incredulous that the left would be criticizing Obama's Libya policy. I really wanted to ask him what rock he's been hiding under. Left-wing dissent over Libya has been like a tide rolling in since day one, starting with Dennis Kucinich and other far-lefties, with the tide creeping ever closer to the center with each passing day. Hell even Maddow took time to give Obama a What The Hell Hero?.

 

It's a start at least. I hope that, at the end of the 14 days they gave Obama, they force a withdrawal. The law should not be ignored, even if past presidents have ignored it. Anyone of voting age in the US should call or write their congresscritters to express this sentiment. Not near enough of us do this, as illustrated by both parties losing their way, in particular the spectacularly self-destructive path the Republican party's set itself on. Seems that a lot of Democrats, rather than exploiting the Republicans' weakness, are trying to do the same thing to their party...