Nazi - flag

[SergeantGrrock]

Normally I avoid threads like this in any forum but... isn't it funny that someone who isn't even a member of this community (1 post) can cause such a firestorm. That is so typical of the world today and it makes me sick. Don't like what I don't like!! and vice versa. OP, you and people like you are cancer. If the only reason you signed up here was to make that comment... get a life.

[jcdenton2012]

Can we please lock this thread? I ask because we're just going in circles of troll baiting and logical answers. As to the actual issue at hand, it was resolved long ago.

[tomomi1922]

It's not only adding nazi stuff to games that gets thing stirred up and heated debates.

 

I do modelbuilding, went from ww2 kits to GK anime kits but i've seen a lot of this over the years in ww2 modelbuilding forums. It's weird how people react, for instance you take a historic picture of a ww2 scene and rebuild that. It so happens that picture shows a German tank with swastika and german soldiers during some assault or taking a break from the fighting. Some people will fall all over you for sticking the swastika decals on the tank and depicting the German soldiers while they are doing unspeakable things!? It's a picture and i try to recreate a bit of history in a diorama.

 

Now i have another picture with another German panzer with swastika but this time it's al shot up by some Sherman tanks and smoking wrecks of Shermans surround the destroyed panzer. (It took 4-5 Shermans to take out an experienced Panther or Tiger crew) I rebuild that picture into a diorama, stick the swastika, this time on a destroyed panzer surrounded by destroyed Shermans with GI's hanging out burned and maimed, and the same people go like, "Yes that's how it was, had to fight hard to take out a German tank, cost a lot of lives" nice diorama.

 

Ok? so? No comment on the swastika this time? Those same people do build German panzer models as historically correct as possible down to the tiniest detail complaining about the fact the kit is 1943 Panzer ausfhurung 5 fg whatever but the tracks provided with the kit are those of a late 1944 Panzer ausfhurung 5 kj whatever but refuse to put the swastika on the model!?.

 

Nazi symbols do that to people and that's in a "world" where the most popular models are what the nazi's used because admit it, nothing beats the looks and power of a frigging Panther or Tiger tank.

 

I do not and will not play any of the world war 2 shooters because personally i find it totally disrespectfull and has nothing to do with education or whatsoever argument you can bring up. But i will never stop anyone from playing them and will not complain about nazi symbolism in those games, they are tied to the scenario and historically correct.

 

That last line is important, tied to the scenario, i do not see what nazi's have to do in FO 4 through mods, i do understand why people want to put them in, they are ultimate evil and it's nice to shoot them. Enclave and BoS are also clearly fascist inspired factions and make it easy for people to go with nazi symbolism. But imho if you want to expand be creative but do not just copy paste nazi symbolism, come up with your own symbols. You can still use the Hugo Boss uniforms that do look stylish but for very good reasons stained for eternity. Just look at Starship troopers for inspiration, one big nazi movie in space but they gave it a twist that makes it inspired by but still unique and not insulting anyone.

 

Come up with a very thorough background story, put your own creativity into it but still be prepared for a major shitstorm or just keep it private and to yourself.

 

You see, even talk like yours will "offend" a lot of people here. I am making a simple mod to shoot at Nazi and people cry and scream over the fact that "my grandparents were victim, you should not even mention the word Nazi". However as one may feel about Nazi, they can't always be portrayed as in pathetic "always losing" poses. I mean, if they are such a push over, all the Jews already took care of the Nazi, no need for the Allied forces to fight such a lengthy war and losing millions of lives over this. It just does not make logical sense.

 

Some people even brought up German was not even mentioned in the game so Nazi content was not immersive at all. But truth is, according to Fallout timeline, quite some weapons in FO4 right now have German origin. And I do mean Bethesda did start somewhere along the FO universe that such weapons came from Germany.

 

I would get very offended if people get "offended" by the swatika because it doesn't quite belong to the German. Hitler "borrowed" it from Buddhism. It makes even less sense to hate a religious symbol of 2000+ years history just because some crazy person decided to use it for himself for a less than 100 year old regime. This shows upmost ignorance.

[wax2k]

@tomomi1922:

 

Looking forward to your mod to use the swastika you seem to care about so much. I am sure, you won't have that many people taking offense at that :D

 

 

You might want to think less about the symbol as such and more about context. Apart from that, the mod this thread relates to, had been allowed up until the author used it to promote a clearly biased, so called "documentation", claiming to tell "the true story", showing that his intention with this mod was more than just wanting to have a "historical" symbol for "nostalgia", as he stated. Unfortunately, and a big part of the reason why people are suspicious about these kind of mods, in many similar cases before, the true convictions of the related authors were revealed sooner or later and they weren't just about a stylish uniform or historical context or "killing Nazis".

 

So all in all (and as far as I understand, that's exactly what Nexus is stating): just using a nazi swastika or other nazi symbol is fine (suspicious, but innocent 'til proven guilty). Trying to promote any kind of related ideology is not. Deal with it!

Edited January 27, 2016 by wax2k

[tomomi1922]

Btw my comments were not to defend nor oppose the OP. Didn't know the whole story. And I don't disagree with Nexus action either.

My mod I am working on, in fact I don't care so much about it. I use it as a learning experience. I care more about the nice fashion that the Nazi wear. Without all the SS emblems, they have very good uniform design. I don't feel like giving settlers to wear them, so my only choice is to shoot at them and gawking at the stuff mid fight (during VATs slowmo) or after I killed them. Kinda sick to hear me talk about it in real life but this is a game, so it's acceptable to make your bad guys look good so you can kill them with more fun.

I guess I overall just get upset people force upon me their crazy hatred for Nazi to the point they want to shut me down from creating my mod.

[wax2k]

Of course it can be frustrating, when people take offense at something that you're doing without bad intentions. But this is a polarizing subject and as such, you could and should know beforehand that you will have to deal with that. And if you don't want that or can't stand that, don't publish it.

 

If i run around downtown naked during rush hour, it might just be for fun and not hurt anybody. Still I know beforehand, that some people will take offense at it for different (and on closer look understandable) reasons. And that in most countries, I probably will have to deal with the authorities as well in that case.

 

And most people have reasons for taking offense in specific things, depending on their personal history, social environment, political environment, education and so on. And that holds true for you as well. Try to allow it to others and understand it, just as much as you would like them to do considering you. There aren't many people on earth, that take offense at something for no reason at all. In most cases, you just don't know it or don't understand it due to a different background.

Edited January 27, 2016 by wax2k

[mwhenry16]

Nazi history is historical fact, period. For portraying pure evil, what else conjures up such passions even in the hamster length attention span millennial generation?

Personally, I would find a Greenpeace flag more offensive.

 

But in the end, dear OP, it is you who will be skewered, because the community values "if you don't like it, don't download it" more than "why is it here" discussion. You will be blamed for it's reaching a download milestone, if not for it's creation.

[wax2k]

... laments over "the hamster length attention span millennial generation"... and only reads the first post... :rolleyes:

Edited January 28, 2016 by wax2k

[Moraelin]

You see, even talk like yours will "offend" a lot of people here. I am making a simple mod to shoot at Nazi and people cry and scream over the fact that "my grandparents were victim, you should not even mention the word Nazi".

Well, both my grandfathers fought in WWII, and one of them was crippled. Both on the eastern front too. And don't even get me started on the frikken partisans :tongue:

 

Can I get offended yet? :wink:

 

*Ahem* Now seriously, if you want to make a mod, just make a mod already. I must confess that I have all respect for people who put all the effort into making a mod, even if it's just a batch file, and I have all respect for people who contribute otherwise, even if it's just adding their own better photo to someone else's mod. I have NO respect for people who seem to be here just to fan the flames and be the professional victim in some manufactured controversy, on either side of it. I don't think that rabble rouser is a valuable skill that the community really needs.

 

Now of course, how far that can go is not up to me. We have moderators for that. But just saying, _I_ for one would have a lot more respect if I actually saw a mod in your profile, than just some more fanning the flames over whether X or Y belongs in the game, and what's wrong with people who think otherwise, or what's wrong if the moderators did/didn't allow it.

 

You want to make a mod? Make it already. You want nazis in it? Go for it. Hell, go nuts and make them undead werewolf space nazis, for all I care, and from what I can tell, for what the mods care too. What's there to pre-debate anyway?

 

Just my 2c.

[Moraelin]

It's not only adding nazi stuff to games that gets thing stirred up and heated debates.

 

I do modelbuilding, went from ww2 kits to GK anime kits but i've seen a lot of this over the years in ww2 modelbuilding forums. It's weird how people react, for instance you take a historic picture of a ww2 scene and rebuild that. It so happens that picture shows a German tank with swastika and german soldiers during some assault or taking a break from the fighting. Some people will fall all over you for sticking the swastika decals on the tank and depicting the German soldiers while they are doing unspeakable things!? It's a picture and i try to recreate a bit of history in a diorama.

 

Now i have another picture with another German panzer with swastika but this time it's al shot up by some Sherman tanks and smoking wrecks of Shermans surround the destroyed panzer. (It took 4-5 Shermans to take out an experienced Panther or Tiger crew) I rebuild that picture into a diorama, stick the swastika, this time on a destroyed panzer surrounded by destroyed Shermans with GI's hanging out burned and maimed, and the same people go like, "Yes that's how it was, had to fight hard to take out a German tank, cost a lot of lives" nice diorama.

 

Ok? so? No comment on the swastika this time? Those same people do build German panzer models as historically correct as possible down to the tiniest detail complaining about the fact the kit is 1943 Panzer ausfhurung 5 fg whatever but the tracks provided with the kit are those of a late 1944 Panzer ausfhurung 5 kj whatever but refuse to put the swastika on the model!?.

OK, if you want to talk history, we can talk history. Because it goes both ways.

 

How about the fact that it's not needed? ALL Wehrmacht tanks just had the black cross on them, and even SS divisions often used their own symbols. E.g., the 2nd SS Division "Das Reich" used the wolf-trap rune as its insignia.

 

Now if it were on AIRPLANE models, sure, those were required by international aviation law to have the flag on them, and they did. But tanks did not, except again, for a minority of SS units.

 

So, yes, those who pay attention to the wheel arrangement, but see no need for a swastika on the tank, actually have historically valid point. Most tanks did not, even most SS tanks did not, and the minority that did were all SS.

 

So basically you CHOOSE to play your wargame as SS or make your dioramas about the SS, even if that was a minority of tanks AND it wasn't even army. The SS was a paramilitary organization. Which is how it could enlist non-citizens. And also why it was preferred for... less honourable work, including outright pogroms. See the Einzatzgruppen, which were outright death squads.

 

That's not just about WW2, nor about German tanks. You're specifically choosing to depict THAT organization. It's got about as much to do with depicting a WW2 tank battle as ISIS has to do with depicting the middle East.

 

And you wonder why people are offended? Really?

 

Now I'm not telling you that you shouldn't do that, but it seems to me like if you choose to needlessly make it about specifically the SS, then don't act surprised if some people get funny thoughts about why it had to be specifically an SS unit.