tomomi1922 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I think one key to keep the game living longer is somehow to create a perpetual world stage. Something that Diablo did ok before: randomize dungeon map so players get something new everytime. I am not saying we should have randomized map at all, but learning from Diablo, players expect and enjoy new fresh aspects that can sustain their repetitive gaming (that doesn't feel as repetitive). FO4 did quite a few things right, at least for me. Unlike most games who paints the protagonist as most relatable to their audience as possible. But FO4, the player is a parent. Especially for me, I play the wife. It gives me the mindset of a mother, a house wife. The kind that is least likely willing to jump into the world gun blazing. And this helps me grow attached to the character (because the character is not entirely myself). That said, most games expect interest to wane when players finish the game (and see credits roll). And their only hope is for player to restart a new playthrough. But how many playthrough will you take on? 3? 5? 10? 20? What game designers should think now is there there is a much bigger expectation for a perpetual world even after the main plot ends. A world where players want to continue striving in because there are a lot of things to do. One of the biggest flaws of many games these days is that after giving us a nice area, a wonderful DLC for us to play through ... we cannot go back to the area. Why? Even little things like letting players sit on chair, take a sip of drink, ... all these "useless" animations and interactions bring a ton of value into the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrxVL Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) @zanity. The pipe dream you speak of is one that I share. I agree with most of your post. I do think Bethjunkie correctly pointed out the wealth of amazing mods for NV that don't fall into the categories you mentioned, but that hardly invalidates the rest of your excellent post. If the modding community manages to overcome the challanges Bethesda has (probably unwittingly) put in place, and make it as great as [insert previous game here] I'll be happy. Unfortunately none of this has done anything to assuage my fears of the future of FO4 modding, but I will remain hopeful and keep a watchful eye on it. If my I'm-so-busy-I-can't-have-a-life schedule finds room in it I'll probably dust off my GECK manual too. :tongue: Edited January 26, 2016 by Ronin Silfar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamBacon Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Some things just can't be fixed. The dumbification (it's a word... -_-) of the dialog system has come to a head this time. Compare the the quality of dialog in FO2 for example. Honestly, I'm not bothered too much if we have little agency in the outcome of a conversation, as long as it is interesting and engaging. The linked example excels at that. Unfortunately, no mod will bring this to FO4. What are you even talking about? Why would you ever think that mods can't write dialogue like that in Fallout 4? The example you gave is just some writing, nothing that people won't be able to do the very day Bethesda releases the GECK... There is so much potential behind this dialogue system in this game, I am super excited about getting my writing into it. So many things I couldn't do in the past with the old system that locked the dialogue into a 'turn based' kind on system. I already have some 200 pages of dialogue ready and waiting, stuff that I hope can push the envelope of what people expect from dialogue in videogames. The vanilla dialogue may not have had the same painstaking attention payed to it as games in the past, but the potential for modders to do so is going to be even greater than in the past. Though I don't really think the example you gave is all that great compared to a lot of the stuff I have seen in Fallout 1 and 2. It starts off good, but by the end it just gets a bit convoluted and seems to be taking the point past being clever to the point of being over done. More dialogue doesn't necessarily mean better dialogue. That conversation had little flow in my personal opinion. Though I think other conversations from the same game did a much better job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrxVL Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) What are you even talking about? Unless you know any modders that have unrestricted free access to the original voice cast what I'm saying is that the vanilla game will never be "fixed" by mods in this respect. My OP is centered on fixing Fallout 4, because imo every modern Bethesda game is released in a horribly broken state, and I don't mean just bugs. In the past most of the major issues are addressed by the outstanding modding community. However, this specific issue is one that won't be fixed because it would require enormous quantities of new dialog and the original voice cast. This could also have implications on the story as a whole, creating new paths etc. The point is it's a near impossibility to alter or add to the original dialog of the vanilla game. I fully expect non-voiced quest mods to appear in great quantity, and even a few decent quality voiced ones. However, that doesn't address how bad the interactions in the core experience are. Edited January 27, 2016 by Ronin Silfar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilkandeekid Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Unless you know any modders that have unrestricted free access to the original voice cast what I'm saying is that the vanilla game will never be "fixed" by mods in this respect. Depends on strict you want to be with it. Ive seen some really talented audio editors get things matching pretty close in the past. Plus im also not attached to the Vanilla voices, so if someone where to take on the extreme task of add new voiced dialog and re-record the old to match it I'd be super stoked. Edited January 27, 2016 by lilkandeekid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted2433418User Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I'll just throw in my two cents... things to be fixed if FO4 is to have any longevity1# the Menu system,it´s clearly been poted from X-boy or whatever Console..for anyone playing on a pc it´s just annoying #2 Character creation,I don´t know why it has to be so damn idiotic..oh,and why the fuzz you can't turn your character around to get measurements correct... #3,Factions.. the Factions as is are,honest to God,a choice between useless,idiotic,downright evil and a Knightly Order depicted as the source of all evil...not good enough Beth,not good enough.. #4.the Ability to actually see the fruits of your hard labour..as of this moment you run around in circles,building this,defending that all for the benefit of Settelrs who,honestly do Jack-Sh*T..you would think a mechanism that cleans up the bleeding Settlements after a reasonable time could be implemented..but no,it's quite possible to build computers,Lasers and you name it,but taking a broom and cleaning your house? or even using one of the bars of soap that´s thrown willy-nilly around the place..no.no,no,noooo...apparently scruffy,dirty cesspools of rotting debris is the highest in decorating in ANY settlement(excepting the institute where you expect a dentist to pounce on you everytime you turn a corner) #5.actually being able to use your Companions in Combat..as of now,..You sneak,they trip on anything that makes anoise..you aim,..they rush in to the line of sight..and you do anything you´d expectedly do in a world where survival matters...they whine and gripe about it..(example..heading to Goodneighbour with Piper in tow,Supermutants up ahead,i start blasting and she,honest to goodness,starts berating ME?? telling me that i could just back down?..WTF?? is she that stupid or is it the devs that have the silly notion that in a world like that you can "hug it out"??) #6. the ability to alter the ending or make your own faction,because,be honest,none of the endings are thought through and none of the factions are more than loose sketches built around someones perception of good and evil.. I could go on..about the recoil-systems,the weapons in general,all the little things that annoy me and generally detracts from the experience..but all in all..i LIKE the game..it's a pity they never made it..but i hope the Modders out there(hat off to you wonderful souls) will make it the game it was supposed to be.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanindustry Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 #5.actually being able to use your Companions in Combat..as of now,..You sneak,they trip on anything that makes anoise..you aim,..they rush in to the line of sight..and you do anything you´d expectedly do in a world where survival matters...they whine and gripe about it..(example..heading to Goodneighbour with Piper in tow,Supermutants up ahead,i start blasting and she,honest to goodness,starts berating ME?? telling me that i could just back down?..WTF?? is she that stupid or is it the devs that have the silly notion that in a world like that you can "hug it out"??) Just curious if you've used Cait instead? Give her a good sniper rifle (have her using a fully modded gauss rifle atm) and equip it on her, she pretty much never messes up stuff when I sneak, and she keeps her distance too if her rifle has a max range scope, rarely getting in my way. Sure, she complains when I help people, but then I pick a lock to make it up to her. Cait is the best, couldn't stand Piper for more than 5 minutes... As for the rest of you post, I pretty much agree with your other points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarinArenos Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 As I recall, Cait specifically has a "can actually stealth" tag in her character data somewhere. There's this mod that adds that flag to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted2433418User Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Cait is useful you say??..must try it out..The Dog ..I like it,the fact that i can´t rename it is (insert word).stupid..and it whines more than a sick puppy..i´ve had/have a lot of dogs and none of them acts as stupidly and whiny..and why the hell can´t i train it like i would any dog??..the rest are the same..so íll try Cait..thanks for the heads up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamBacon Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 What are you even talking about? Unless you know any modders that have unrestricted free access to the original voice cast what I'm saying is that the vanilla game will never be "fixed" by mods in this respect. My OP is centered on fixing Fallout 4, because imo every modern Bethesda game is released in a horribly broken state, and I don't mean just bugs. In the past most of the major issues are addressed by the outstanding modding community. However, this specific issue is one that won't be fixed because it would require enormous quantities of new dialog and the original voice cast. This could also have implications on the story as a whole, creating new paths etc. The point is it's a near impossibility to alter or add to the original dialog of the vanilla game. I fully expect non-voiced quest mods to appear in great quantity, and even a few decent quality voiced ones. However, that doesn't address how bad the interactions in the core experience are. Everyone's a critic these days... But it is kind of silly to even be having this conversation when I had already done what you claim can't be done over a month ago... At least from the voice acting perspective. Obviously I don't have the creation kit to put it into the game yet, but that's just a matter of time. Modern audio engineering is an incredible thing. Maybe back in the 90s it would be hard to make a voice actor sound like the Fallout 4 protagonist or John Hancock or Piper Write, but in the year 2016 it is just a matter of finding a good voice actor, clicking on a few knobs, a bit of trial and error, and boom! You have a piece of dialogue that sounds just like vanilla Nick Valentine. Will I go through and change a lot of stuff from the vanilla game? Who knows. Can I do it though? Of course I can. If I want to go through and replace the random element of 'charisma' checks with a real 'science' or 'perception' check based on stats I can totally do it. If I want to make the player yell at Elder Maxson and have Maxson get red in the face and yell back, I can do that. If I want to go through the entire quest line and delete every reference to having a son, I can do that. All it takes is a bit of hard work and not giving up before you start. Now I personally like the main story line, so I plan on spending most of my time making my own content using only a handful of vanilla characters such as Hancock, Nick Valentine, and Piper. I personally don't think modding is about 'fixing' anything, but more about giving artists a blank canvas to make their dreams. People like me who don't have a team to make an entirely new game from scratch can piggy back off of the wonderful gift Bethesda has given us, and then share our art with the world. I also personally find it very debatable that Fallout 4's dialogue is any worse than any other Fallout game, and I have played them all. It is very different, and in certain ways it is much worse, but in certain ways it is much better. As someone who is very passionate about doing writing for interactive media, I find certain things about each game that inspire me in a different way. Fallout 2 for example had the most depth and sheer amount of choices to the dialogue. However, that was a different age of gaming when videogames were games and not a truly multimedia experience. Back in those games they had to fill lots of time with menu crawling and drawn out elements because they didn't have HD environments and complex animations and high energy gameplay to keep the player busy for 50+ hours. Compared to today's standards however, Fallout 2's dialogue is very, very cumbersome and has really bad pacing. I don't mean to cut down the game by any means, I'm just trying to point out that a lot of people look at these older games blinded by nostalgia and not really objectively viewing the pros and cons. When it comes to the modern world of gaming, pacing matters. Fallout 2 is written more like a book, where modern games are more like a movie or tv show in nature. Fallout 4 struggles with depth in a way the early games didn't, but it has great pacing, it doesn't feel choppy. You don't have the convoluted long series of rambling dialogue choices that slow down other games in the series. I believe the real time mechanics of the conversation system will turn out to be one of the biggest improvements on the future of the series. No more awkwardly staring straight in the face on an NPC, the conversations now have a composition to them. The point is, you don't need half a dozen options and 800 words to get a point across. Simplicity is good, getting to the point and being clear and precise is good. That doesn't excuse certain other elements of Fallout 4's writing, but hey, I have the day I see a perfect work of art is the day the world will come to an end. I love playing vanilla Fallout 4, but I am even more excited by the potential of pushing the envelope when it come to interactive dialogue and story telling. I would say I am eager to have the creation kit as soon as possible, but I still have about 100 pages left to write before I finish up all my dialogue writing, so I guess waiting gives me time to get that done. So anyways, stop being so negative and enjoy the ride. The future is looking good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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