Keynes VS Hayek

[Maharg67]

Glad to have another poster in the debates forum, welcome. I understand what you are saying and agree with much of it, especially the part about the citizens essentially getting what they deserve. When the population does not pay attention and participate the government can get away with much more than they otherwise would.

 

The part of your post that I wonder about though is where you talk about shortage of resources, war and decline. These things are not new and when one looks at history we seem to be in a better state than in the past. The US is in decline but that has happened to all powers, it simply gives room for the rise of the next power. As far as shortage of resources that is directly addressed by Hayek. Free markets handle that intrinsically with increases in prices, leading to better usage of the scarce resource and an increase of use in alternative resources. On top of that we really aren't running out of any resources, history show contestant hand ringing on the subject but the earth has yet to stop providing anything. We still pull gold, diamonds and oil out of the earth everyday and discover new deposits. As we explore space we shall find yet more resources, possible some unknown to date.

 

We are running out of resources but this fact is hidden from the majority of people by the nature of our system, by the false appearance of things. It is hard to define how this is happening but the largest oil reserves in the world are reaching the stage of less quality and economic viability. While other oil resources are becoming available it is because of the worsening environmental crisis that is melting the ice caps. The ability of the world is grow or to gather food is diminishing rapidly because of environmental damage and over use of resources; for example the oceans are being overfished in large areas to an amazing degree. The deserts are spreading and engulfing farming lands such as both the Gobi desert in Northern China and the Sahara Desert in Northern Africa. Large scale natural disasters around the world have also destroyed much food growing capacity. The richer nations are buying up all the food and the poorer nations are having increasing difficulty competing. These are but some of the reasons that the illusion is so strong in the 'West' that there are no real problems with shortages. We can do something about it but to solve a problem you first have to realise, admit there is a problem and have the will to do something about.

[csgators]

Glad to have another poster in the debates forum, welcome. I understand what you are saying and agree with much of it, especially the part about the citizens essentially getting what they deserve. When the population does not pay attention and participate the government can get away with much more than they otherwise would.

 

The part of your post that I wonder about though is where you talk about shortage of resources, war and decline. These things are not new and when one looks at history we seem to be in a better state than in the past. The US is in decline but that has happened to all powers, it simply gives room for the rise of the next power. As far as shortage of resources that is directly addressed by Hayek. Free markets handle that intrinsically with increases in prices, leading to better usage of the scarce resource and an increase of use in alternative resources. On top of that we really aren't running out of any resources, history show contestant hand ringing on the subject but the earth has yet to stop providing anything. We still pull gold, diamonds and oil out of the earth everyday and discover new deposits. As we explore space we shall find yet more resources, possible some unknown to date.

 

We are running out of resources but this fact is hidden from the majority of people by the nature of our system, by the false appearance of things. It is hard to define how this is happening but the largest oil reserves in the world are reaching the stage of less quality and economic viability. While other oil resources are becoming available it is because of the worsening environmental crisis that is melting the ice caps. The ability of the world is grow or to gather food is diminishing rapidly because of environmental damage and over use of resources; for example the oceans are being overfished in large areas to an amazing degree. The deserts are spreading and engulfing farming lands such as both the Gobi desert in Northern China and the Sahara Desert in Northern Africa. Large scale natural disasters around the world have also destroyed much food growing capacity. The richer nations are buying up all the food and the poorer nations are having increasing difficulty competing. These are but some of the reasons that the illusion is so strong in the 'West' that there are no real problems with shortages. We can do something about it but to solve a problem you first have to realise, admit there is a problem and have the will to do something about.

 

Oil isn't being found under melting ice caps, it's being found in places like Brazil. The USA is currently sitting on more oil than Saudi Arabia. The world is producing more food than ever before. There is no evidence that disaster is near, a claim that has been thrown around for literally thousands of years. The Bible even talks about how humans are overpopulating the world. Mark Twain jokes about the doomsayers discussing overpopulation. The claim has always been made and has never been true. People in third world counties are living better than they ever have before and yet still these fear tactics are used to scare people so that those making the claims can gain power.

Edited May 21, 2011 by csgators

[marharth]

Glad to have another poster in the debates forum, welcome. I understand what you are saying and agree with much of it, especially the part about the citizens essentially getting what they deserve. When the population does not pay attention and participate the government can get away with much more than they otherwise would.

 

The part of your post that I wonder about though is where you talk about shortage of resources, war and decline. These things are not new and when one looks at history we seem to be in a better state than in the past. The US is in decline but that has happened to all powers, it simply gives room for the rise of the next power. As far as shortage of resources that is directly addressed by Hayek. Free markets handle that intrinsically with increases in prices, leading to better usage of the scarce resource and an increase of use in alternative resources. On top of that we really aren't running out of any resources, history show contestant hand ringing on the subject but the earth has yet to stop providing anything. We still pull gold, diamonds and oil out of the earth everyday and discover new deposits. As we explore space we shall find yet more resources, possible some unknown to date.

 

We are running out of resources but this fact is hidden from the majority of people by the nature of our system, by the false appearance of things. It is hard to define how this is happening but the largest oil reserves in the world are reaching the stage of less quality and economic viability. While other oil resources are becoming available it is because of the worsening environmental crisis that is melting the ice caps. The ability of the world is grow or to gather food is diminishing rapidly because of environmental damage and over use of resources; for example the oceans are being overfished in large areas to an amazing degree. The deserts are spreading and engulfing farming lands such as both the Gobi desert in Northern China and the Sahara Desert in Northern Africa. Large scale natural disasters around the world have also destroyed much food growing capacity. The richer nations are buying up all the food and the poorer nations are having increasing difficulty competing. These are but some of the reasons that the illusion is so strong in the 'West' that there are no real problems with shortages. We can do something about it but to solve a problem you first have to realise, admit there is a problem and have the will to do something about.

 

Oil isn't being found under melting ice caps, it's being found in places like Brazil. The USA is currently sitting on more oil than Saudi Arabia. The world is producing more food than ever before. There is no evidence that disaster is near, a claim that has been thrown around for literally thousands of years. The Bible even talks about how humans are overpopulating the world. Mark Twain jokes about the doomsayers discussing overpopulation. The claim has always been made and has never been true. People in third world counties are living better than they ever have before and yet still these fear tactics are used to scare people so that those making the claims can gain power.

Oil will run out at some point, that is obvious. If we keep using it all the time it will run out faster.

 

I don't think he said oil was being found under melting ice caps, to my understanding he was saying global climate change is causing them to melt due to the use of oil.

 

The reason people are living better in third world countries is due to the ability to spread food, that doesn't mean food resources are growing better.

 

Our current time in history has the biggest population, and the highest machinery production. It makes it much easier to get and destory resources.

 

It is not the same as every other civilization, it is much different.

[csgators]

 

The reason people are living better in third world countries is due to the ability to spread food, that doesn't mean food resources are growing better.

 

Our current time in history has the biggest population, and the highest machinery production. It makes it much easier to get and destory resources.

 

It is not the same as every other civilization, it is much different.

 

We have more people than ever before and famine due to lack of food is a thing of the past. Doesn't it follow that it means we are producing more food than ever before? That our modern transportation systems are in fact saving lives everyday? Civilization is evolving so at almost any point in time you could make the same statement about it. Oil win run out? Maybe. There could be a technological breakthrough tomorrow that makes oil for transportation obsolete. In any case as oil becomes more scarce (it isn't right now) the costs will rise and people will use alternatives. If oil was $1000 a barrel ethanol is a bargain in comparison, as batteries get better we can run our cars with electricity produced by nuclear or solar power. As I said, at virtually any time in human history you have people claiming the end is near (today in fact for one group). With 100% failure rate on those predictions I find them rather difficult to believe.

[marharth]

 

The reason people are living better in third world countries is due to the ability to spread food, that doesn't mean food resources are growing better.

 

Our current time in history has the biggest population, and the highest machinery production. It makes it much easier to get and destory resources.

 

It is not the same as every other civilization, it is much different.

 

We have more people than ever before and famine due to lack of food is a thing of the past. Doesn't it follow that it means we are producing more food than ever before? That our modern transportation systems are in fact saving lives everyday? Civilization is evolving so at almost any point in time you could make the same statement about it. Oil win run out? Maybe. There could be a technological breakthrough tomorrow that makes oil for transportation obsolete. In any case as oil becomes more scarce (it isn't right now) the costs will rise and people will use alternatives. If oil was $1000 a barrel ethanol is a bargain in comparison, as batteries get better we can run our cars with electricity produced by nuclear or solar power. As I said, at virtually any time in human history you have people claiming the end is near (today in fact for one group). With 100% failure rate on those predictions I find them rather difficult to believe.

I am saying that it wouldn't matter if the USA grew all the food in the world, the methods of transportation is what feeds third world countries.

 

Oil WILL run out, that is a fact. The earth does not have a never ending amount of oil, it takes millions of years for more oil to be created through the nature process.

 

Why should we wait until oil runs out? Why don't we make a switch now?

 

It would be beneficial to the environment, and beneficial to the human race as a whole.

 

We can build fully electric cars that get energy entirely from solar, wind, and hydroelectric power.

 

It has everything to do with profit, which is back to my point on how just because something makes money does not make it good. One of the many reasons a unregulated free market will not work.

[csgators]

 

The reason people are living better in third world countries is due to the ability to spread food, that doesn't mean food resources are growing better.

 

Our current time in history has the biggest population, and the highest machinery production. It makes it much easier to get and destory resources.

 

It is not the same as every other civilization, it is much different.

 

We have more people than ever before and famine due to lack of food is a thing of the past. Doesn't it follow that it means we are producing more food than ever before? That our modern transportation systems are in fact saving lives everyday? Civilization is evolving so at almost any point in time you could make the same statement about it. Oil win run out? Maybe. There could be a technological breakthrough tomorrow that makes oil for transportation obsolete. In any case as oil becomes more scarce (it isn't right now) the costs will rise and people will use alternatives. If oil was $1000 a barrel ethanol is a bargain in comparison, as batteries get better we can run our cars with electricity produced by nuclear or solar power. As I said, at virtually any time in human history you have people claiming the end is near (today in fact for one group). With 100% failure rate on those predictions I find them rather difficult to believe.

I am saying that it wouldn't matter if the USA grew all the food in the world, the methods of transportation is what feeds third world countries.

 

Oil WILL run out, that is a fact. The earth does not have a never ending amount of oil, it takes millions of years for more oil to be created through the nature process.

 

Why should we wait until oil runs out? Why don't we make a switch now?

 

It would be beneficial to the environment, and beneficial to the human race as a whole.

 

We can build fully electric cars that get energy entirely from solar, wind, and hydroelectric power.

 

It has everything to do with profit, which is back to my point on how just because something makes money does not make it good. One of the many reasons a unregulated free market will not work.

 

Of course it's about profit, do you like to work for free? Do you want to spend 5 times as much for electricity for no real reason at all other than oil may run out someday? Not to mention there is no way at all we could replace all of our energy needs with wind, solar and hydro power. All of which have their own environmental problems. If something makes money that means it provides something of value so in a way, yes it does make it "good".

[marharth]

 

The reason people are living better in third world countries is due to the ability to spread food, that doesn't mean food resources are growing better.

 

Our current time in history has the biggest population, and the highest machinery production. It makes it much easier to get and destory resources.

 

It is not the same as every other civilization, it is much different.

 

We have more people than ever before and famine due to lack of food is a thing of the past. Doesn't it follow that it means we are producing more food than ever before? That our modern transportation systems are in fact saving lives everyday? Civilization is evolving so at almost any point in time you could make the same statement about it. Oil win run out? Maybe. There could be a technological breakthrough tomorrow that makes oil for transportation obsolete. In any case as oil becomes more scarce (it isn't right now) the costs will rise and people will use alternatives. If oil was $1000 a barrel ethanol is a bargain in comparison, as batteries get better we can run our cars with electricity produced by nuclear or solar power. As I said, at virtually any time in human history you have people claiming the end is near (today in fact for one group). With 100% failure rate on those predictions I find them rather difficult to believe.

I am saying that it wouldn't matter if the USA grew all the food in the world, the methods of transportation is what feeds third world countries.

 

Oil WILL run out, that is a fact. The earth does not have a never ending amount of oil, it takes millions of years for more oil to be created through the nature process.

 

Why should we wait until oil runs out? Why don't we make a switch now?

 

It would be beneficial to the environment, and beneficial to the human race as a whole.

 

We can build fully electric cars that get energy entirely from solar, wind, and hydroelectric power.

 

It has everything to do with profit, which is back to my point on how just because something makes money does not make it good. One of the many reasons a unregulated free market will not work.

 

Of course it's about profit, do you like to work for free? Do you want to spend 5 times as much for electricity for no real reason at all other than oil may run out someday? Not to mention there is no way at all we could replace all of our energy needs with wind, solar and hydro power. All of which have their own environmental problems. If something makes money that means it provides something of value so in a way, yes it does make it "good".

It doesn't make it good.

 

It tricks people into thinking its good, so they will keep buying it.

 

Just because people buy something, doesn't mean its good as a whole.

 

People buy cigarettes, is that good?

 

How do you think it will make electricity cost five times more?

 

What are the bad environmental problems with solar and wind power?

[csgators]

It doesn't make it good.

 

It tricks people into thinking its good, so they will keep buying it.

 

Just because people buy something, doesn't mean its good as a whole.

 

People buy cigarettes, is that good?

 

It is "good" in that people buy what they want. Some people want tobacco, that is their choice. They know the risks but decide that the benefit they get out of it out ways the hazard. You may not agree but you are not the arbiter of all that is good in the world for everyone.

 

How do you think it will make electricity cost five times more?

 

It's actually much more than 5 times higher, at least solar is: http://greenecon.net/understanding-the-cost-of-solar-energy/energy_economics.html

 

What are the bad environmental problems with solar and wind power?

 

With solar power the problem comes from the manufacturing of the panels and the disposal of the panels, with wind you have damage to wildlife, esp. birds. Not to mention the vast amount of land use required, the noise from wind turbines and they are an eyesore.

 

Some of the problems are listed here: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/technology_and_impacts/impacts/environmental-impacts-of.html

 

I am all for clean energy but everything, and I mean everything has a cost/benefit ratio that needs to be taken into account. If energy goes up in an extreme way it will literally kill millions if not billions of people, mostly the poor.

[marharth]

It doesn't make it good.

 

It tricks people into thinking its good, so they will keep buying it.

 

Just because people buy something, doesn't mean its good as a whole.

 

People buy cigarettes, is that good?

 

It is "good" in that people buy what they want. Some people want tobacco, that is their choice. They know the risks but decide that the benefit they get out of it out ways the hazard. You may not agree but you are not the arbiter of all that is good in the world for everyone.

 

How do you think it will make electricity cost five times more?

 

It's actually much more than 5 times higher, at least solar is: http://greenecon.net/understanding-the-cost-of-solar-energy/energy_economics.html

 

What are the bad environmental problems with solar and wind power?

 

With solar power the problem comes from the manufacturing of the panels and the disposal of the panels, with wind you have damage to wildlife, esp. birds. Not to mention the vast amount of land use required, the noise from wind turbines and they are an eyesore.

 

Some of the problems are listed here: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/technology_and_impacts/impacts/environmental-impacts-of.html

 

I am all for clean energy but everything, and I mean everything has a cost/benefit ratio that needs to be taken into account. If energy goes up in an extreme way it will literally kill millions if not billions of people, mostly the poor.

Your best argument against wind energy is that it might kill birds? I find that highly unlikely that a large amount of birds will be killed by a wind turbine.

 

Solar energy may cost more currently, but if it has continued use it will eventuality lower in cost.

 

Back to what I was saying, we can''t use clean energy just because it costs more? That is quite clearly a issue with the free market.

 

Some people can't afford medicine, should they just die?

 

The only reason people smoke is due to mass advertisement, if people were never tricked it would have never of made profit.

 

Corporations do not care if their products hurt people, they will advertise it to a point that people will buy it.

[HeyYou]

Not to mention that less than 1% of our electricity is generated using petroleum products. Natural gas is the biggest, and most of what is used, is 'produced'.... right here in the states. Transportation and manufacturing are the biggest consumers of petroleum products. For a time, methanol was considered the 'next best thing', but, when a good percentage of crop production was shifted from feed, to methanol production, the prices of FOOD climbed alarmingly.

 

Wind power is not the answer, it is just the current fad. For relatively small uses, sure, it works. But, for large scale electricity production, it has way too many problems to make it viable. Biggest of which is, the wind just isn't reliable, therefore, you must have some manner of backup generation to supplement the windmills. What do they generally use? Diesel generators....... kinda counter-productive, don't ya think?