Osama finally killed.

[HeyYou]

Bin Laden and Afghanistan are good examples of what I am talking about though. Where did Osama, and his freedom fighters.... get their weapons, funding and training when the USSR was attempting to do pretty much the same thing that we are doing now? That was us. The good ol' US of A. And where did it get us? When the Soviets pulled out, Osama and his muslim buddies installed a strict islamic government, that hated the US. The folks that helped them out in their time of need. So, the billions/trillions of dollars we poured into that, to fight our 'enemy', only empowered yet another enemy. The Afghanistan war was also a major contributor to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Now, what makes anyone think it will be different for us? We are installing our own brand of government, supporting leaders that are nominally friendly to us..... and spending trillions of dollars. (that incidentally, we are borrowing from China, another of our cold war enemies..... with a government that is anathema to everything we believe.)

 

Not to mention that when the taliban was in power, the growing of poppies, and production of heroin was considered a 'bad' thing, and the government took steps to prevent it. What we have now is, a government that does nothing about it, and a fair number of them profit from it. And we support this government of a country that is responsible for 80% of opium production in the world? We call these guys our FRIENDS???? Talk about double standards.

 

And speaking of China..... our one-time enemy...... (and still potentially so....) Our economy here is now unequivocally supported by them. They are reaping HUGE profits, while americans are out of work, and seeing their way of life blowing away like so much dust in the wind. And what is China doing with that money? Developing weapons in order to threaten our military dominance in the area. (if you could call it that.) Highly accurate nuclear tipped missiles that are capable of targeting a carrier group. It's a lot like paying our enemies in Afghanistan so we can get our supplies thru, so we can fight them. Doesn't seem to occur to our 'leaders' that we are DIRECTLY funding BOTH sides of the war. Brilliant strategy.

 

Not like they would even had to fire a single shot to take us down. All they would have to do is utter a few little words. "We want our money back." And we would be all done. Instantly bankrupt.

 

Granted, right now.... it really isn't in China's best interests to do so, but, how long is that going to remain the case?

 

In my view, it doesn't matter WHAT we do, whom we aid, and whom we don't...... it ends up biting us in the rear in the long run. And if we are so quick to switch sides in some conflict, just depending on which way the wind is blowing, how does that make us a 'valued ally', aside from having seemingly bottomless pockets from which to dole out billions in what basically amounts to bribes?

 

Nope. The US has FAR too many problems right here at home, to be spending money on foreign aid, and foreign conflicts. ESPECIALLY 'revolutions', or 'rebellions', 'popular uprisings' or whatever you want to call them that should be purely internal issues to begin with. The middle east basically hates us simply because we stick our noses into just about every country there, in some fashion or other. We need to change our priorities, and start taking care of the millions of folks right here at home that have no health care, are in danger of losing their homes, or have already lost them, simply because there are NO JOBS. We have exported them all to other countries in the name of the "global economy", or "Free Trade". (hint, it sure as heck ain't free......)

[deu58]

Unfortunately much of what you say is true. But what is difficult to discern is what policies are put into effect for the cause of national security and what policies are put into effect under the guise of national security but are really nothing more than corporate greed trying to gain access to more wealth. We {the US} contributed greatly to the rise of this new China. They are wealthy today because we moved our manufacturing base to China. Even with this current recession the US is still producing "large" numbers of new millionaires today but the wage disparity in this country is rapidly moving us towards a class system of a small wealthy elite and a very large class of those who have to work two jobs just to even try to make two ends meet. And considering that the US is still China's main market I do not believe that at least right now that we have to worry about China shutting us down by calling in their debt. But that will only last as long as the Chinese feel they need us around. The Chinese military build up is worrisome I agree. They have no enemies in the region so why the build up? Modernization of national defense is understandable but why building air craft carriers new submarines etc ? Modernization and expansion are two completely different things. It could be nothing more than more than their own version of walk softly and carry a big stick. Or it could be that because when they do finally make their move to annex Taiwan they want a modern massive technologically equal force to keep the US at bay.

 

We are still a very wealthy country but that wealth is being centralized into the hands of a few at the expense of the majority of the population. And there is always a scapegoat to make it appear that the decisions leading us in this direction are really necessary be it the evil Taliban or the money grubbing Unions or what ever.

 

The core of what I am saying is we cannot afford to be isolationist. I am not saying that the people responsible for making and implementing these decisions have done it correctly. Afghanistan as far as I am concerned on the surface was a knee jerk reaction that was not truly necessary. But the iron was hot and now appeared to be an excellent time to move several agendas forward. Was it all because of Bin Laden and national security that we invaded Afghanistan or was it an excuse for something else? Recently as in about a year or so ago it was in the news that apparently Poppies are not the only thing of value in Afghanistan. It appears that the country is also very wealthy in mineral deposits especially Lithium.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html

 

So why did we really go into into Afghanistan? Because of Bin Laden and national security or was it a more ulterior motive or both? My own view is both. The news release I linked to is recent but how long has this information been know in small powerful circles? Would we want such wealth in the hands of a governing body such as the Taliban? Look at what Iran has done with its oil wealth. Nuclear programs and exporting terrorism. Do we want another wealthy radical Islamic state with access to wealth and strategic metals in the region? And if we can remove the Taliban AND make a buck doing it is this such a bad thing? Unfortunately the Taliban are not gone and we damn sure have not made a buck have we?

 

Why did we go into into Iraq? There are numerous dictators as bad or worse than Hussein but we do not run in and overthrow them. People of course say oil and that is correct but was it Iraqi oil we were actually after? If you look at where Iraq is on the map you will see its strategic location. Who ever controls Iraq controls the middle east and the flow of mid east oil. It provides a buffer zone to help isolate Iran and it provides staging areas for military operations against Iran should that isolation buffer fail. It all looked good on paper and of course the Iraqi's will greet us with flowers won't they?

 

The problem is national security interests and corporate interests do over lap making it very difficult to really see just why certain decisions are implemented. Halliburton is a major player today in the Middle East but they were also a major player in Viet Nam. Their then subsidiary Brown and Root was the de facto major contractor in Viet Nam and Lady Bird Johnson was a major share holder in Brown and Root and the Johnsons made a lot of personal money of the Viet Nam war. During Viet Nam Brown and Root was known as " Burn and Loot".

 

We shake our heads at people who get sucked into ponzi/pyramid schemes and what not but we are all the same under the surface. We all want the quick buck forgetting that things that sound to good to be to true are generally not true and do not wake up to the fact that we have been had until it is to late. Our politicians and decisions makers are no different than we are really. Corporations spend millions influencing policy and decisions and placing their own people with in the political structure or promising people already in that political structure lucrative deals and board positions if they will help a policy form a specific way.

 

When our founding fathers formed the constitution with the idea of a separation of church and state perhaps they should have also considered wording that would also provide for a separation of corporations and state.

[DeTomaso]

The movie Avatar brilliantly alludes to the theme “corporation at war”.

China just tracks the necessities of all empires since antiquity. And one of it is the blown up military machine to enforce the national interests. The catchword we all are familiar with is: National security interest - the security to get access to and control of needed resources elsewhere, often by military force. This naïve strategy doesn’t go well on the long run - the lifespan of today empires is much shorter than it once had been. Today we calculate in decades and no longer in centuries as it was the case in the days of the Romans or Brits. We’re living in fast times. What was utmost relevant yesterday will be absolutely irrelevant tomorrow, an experience the Soviets had to make only just lately and one the Americans have to make in these days. But actually it is a quite normal imperial experience, a reduction in size, not necessarily in wealth. Shame be to him who thinks evil of it.

[HeyYou]

Unfortunately much of what you say is true. But what is difficult to discern is what policies are put into effect for the cause of national security and what policies are put into effect under the guise of national security but are really nothing more than corporate greed trying to gain access to more wealth. We {the US} contributed greatly to the rise of this new China. They are wealthy today because we moved our manufacturing base to China. Even with this current recession the US is still producing "large" numbers of new millionaires today but the wage disparity in this country is rapidly moving us towards a class system of a small wealthy elite and a very large class of those who have to work two jobs just to even try to make two ends meet. And considering that the US is still China's main market I do not believe that at least right now that we have to worry about China shutting us down by calling in their debt. But that will only last as long as the Chinese feel they need us around. The Chinese military build up is worrisome I agree. They have no enemies in the region so why the build up? Modernization of national defense is understandable but why building air craft carriers new submarines etc ? Modernization and expansion are two completely different things. It could be nothing more than more than their own version of walk softly and carry a big stick. Or it could be that because when they do finally make their move to annex Taiwan they want a modern massive technologically equal force to keep the US at bay.

 

We are still a very wealthy country but that wealth is being centralized into the hands of a few at the expense of the majority of the population. And there is always a scapegoat to make it appear that the decisions leading us in this direction are really necessary be it the evil Taliban or the money grubbing Unions or what ever.

 

The core of what I am saying is we cannot afford to be isolationist. I am not saying that the people responsible for making and implementing these decisions have done it correctly. Afghanistan as far as I am concerned on the surface was a knee jerk reaction that was not truly necessary. But the iron was hot and now appeared to be an excellent time to move several agendas forward. Was it all because of Bin Laden and national security that we invaded Afghanistan or was it an excuse for something else? Recently as in about a year or so ago it was in the news that apparently Poppies are not the only thing of value in Afghanistan. It appears that the country is also very wealthy in mineral deposits especially Lithium.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...14minerals.html

 

So why did we really go into into Afghanistan? Because of Bin Laden and national security or was it a more ulterior motive or both? My own view is both. The news release I linked to is recent but how long has this information been know in small powerful circles? Would we want such wealth in the hands of a governing body such as the Taliban? Look at what Iran has done with its oil wealth. Nuclear programs and exporting terrorism. Do we want another wealthy radical Islamic state with access to wealth and strategic metals in the region? And if we can remove the Taliban AND make a buck doing it is this such a bad thing? Unfortunately the Taliban are not gone and we damn sure have not made a buck have we?

 

Why did we go into into Iraq? There are numerous dictators as bad or worse than Hussein but we do not run in and overthrow them. People of course say oil and that is correct but was it Iraqi oil we were actually after? If you look at where Iraq is on the map you will see its strategic location. Who ever controls Iraq controls the middle east and the flow of mid east oil. It provides a buffer zone to help isolate Iran and it provides staging areas for military operations against Iran should that isolation buffer fail. It all looked good on paper and of course the Iraqi's will greet us with flowers won't they?

 

The problem is national security interests and corporate interests do over lap making it very difficult to really see just why certain decisions are implemented. Halliburton is a major player today in the Middle East but they were also a major player in Viet Nam. Their then subsidiary Brown and Root was the de facto major contractor in Viet Nam and Lady Bird Johnson was a major share holder in Brown and Root and the Johnsons made a lot of personal money of the Viet Nam war. During Viet Nam Brown and Root was known as " Burn and Loot".

 

We shake our heads at people who get sucked into ponzi/pyramid schemes and what not but we are all the same under the surface. We all want the quick buck forgetting that things that sound to good to be to true are generally not true and do not wake up to the fact that we have been had until it is to late. Our politicians and decisions makers are no different than we are really. Corporations spend millions influencing policy and decisions and placing their own people with in the political structure or promising people already in that political structure lucrative deals and board positions if they will help a policy form a specific way.

 

When our founding fathers formed the constitution with the idea of a separation of church and state perhaps they should have also considered wording that would also provide for a separation of corporations and state.

 

I agree with a fair few of your points. The info of mineral wealth in afghanistan came out a while ago. I think I remember reading something about that a year or two back. (it was one of those AHA! moments....)

 

As for isolationism though..... I think a bit of it would be a good idea though. Free Trade, Outsourcing, etc. are NOT good for our nation as a whole. Sure, the corporations love it, but, America just cannot compete on the world stage. We have grown used to our standard of living, and that requires wages that are, in some cases, substantially higher than even our neighbors in Mexico command. Why pay an american worker 20 bucks an hour, when you can get a mexican to do the exact same job for 5 bucks a day? There are several 'american' cars/trucks, that are produced solely in Mexico, but, do you see that dramatically reduced cost reflected in the price of the vehicle? No. You don't. We have exported so much of our manufacturing, that very few products, that have 'american' names, are actually made here any more. When was the last time you talked to a technical support rep, that actually had english as their first language? The government has been complicit in this as well. The whole "Tax breaks for creating jobs in developing nations" would more accurately be called "Tax breaks for MOVING jobs to developing nations." So, corporations get a break by paying lower wages, and then get a tax rebate to boot? Win-win situation for them, but, the american worker is out of luck. Policies of this nature are a major contributing factor to our economic downfall of 2007. What's scary is, these policies are continuing, and even MORE countries are being added to the list of "free trade" nations..... giving corporate america even MORE places to outsource jobs.

 

From my view, it wasn't a recession, or depression. It was a CORRECTION. There isn't going to be any significant recovery, this is the new NORMAL. So long as those policies are in place, and expanded, it is only going to get worse. Of course, it is in the best interests of corporate america for things to continue just as they are, and, as they basically own the politicians in a position to change that course, we are screwed.

[deu58]

And Kudos to you for that one because I agree with you 100%. I have harped on this myself on other forums and apparently younger people seem to think we do not need those jobs any more because we be high teching it today. Unfortunately many of those kids are flipping burgers and washing cars after 4 years of college because we are now outsourcing the high tech jobs also. If they are lucky enough to get in somewhere they are usually being paid a starvation wage while trying to pay back all those student loans.

 

I am old enough to remember when people were born, graduated high school and married the high school sweetheart had their kids and worked in the local factory for umpteen years and grew old in the same house they raised their kids in and died in the very same town they were born in. People were happier, More stable less stressed etc. What so many "high tech" promoters do not seem to be aware of is many people do not want to go to college nor pack up and move every 5 years looking for a new job that pays less than the last job they had.

 

Many people are happy as bugs in a rug just operating the punch press for 40 years get the gold watch and sit on the porch watching their grand kids grow. Who ever the idiot was that started this we really do not need all these manufacturing jobs is just that. An idiot. The government survives on taxes and you do not raise a whole lot of taxes from the unemployed or barely employed.

 

And the proof of that is we are borrowing money from these countries that we shipped of all those jobs we do not really need anymore to because their countries are booming because of all the new manufacturing jobs they have inherited.

 

And the yam heads in DC can't figure this out?

 

Go figure. :(

Edited June 4, 2011 by deu58

[HeyYou]

And Kudos to you for that one because I agree with you 100%. I have harped on this myself on other forums and apparently younger people seem to think we do not need those jobs any more because we be high teching it today. Unfortunately many of those kids are flipping burgers and washing cars after 4 years of college because we are now outsourcing the high tech jobs also. If they are lucky enough to get in somewhere they are usually being paid a starvation wage while trying to pay back all those student loans.

 

I am old enough to remember when people were born, graduated high school and married the high school sweetheart had their kids and worked in the local factory for umpteen years and grew old in the same house they raised their kids in and died in the very same town they were born in. People were happier, More stable less stressed etc. What so many "high tech" promoters do not seem to be aware of is many people do not want to go to college nor pack up and move every 5 years looking for a new job that pays less than the last job they had.

 

Many people are happy as bugs in a rug just operating the punch press for 40 years get the gold watch and sit on the porch watching their grand kids grow. Who ever the idiot was that started this we really do not need all these manufacturing jobs is just that. An idiot. The government survives on taxes and you do not raise a whole lot of taxes from the unemployed or barely employed.

 

And the proof of that is we are borrowing money from these countries that we shipped of all those jobs we do not really need anymore to because their countries are booming because of all the new manufacturing jobs they have inherited.

 

And the yam heads in DC can't figure this out?

 

Go figure. :(

 

I would imagine the yam heads know exactly what they are doing, but, their corporate masters will not allow them to correct the situation. Not to mention the current course is right on par with the american adage that what makes me the most money, RIGHT NOW, is the direction I want to take. Nevermind that at some point, there won't be any consumers left here, to buy the products that are no longer made here. Corporate america is cutting their own throats, but, as they are making billions currently, the future is irrelevant.

 

I think we are headed for yet another crash, and the next one, will make the last one look like a day at the park.

 

Yep, I too remember those days. When only one parent needed to work, to support a comfortable lifestyle. When you got a job somewhere, and worked there for 30 years or more, and retired comfortably. Those days are long gone, and I really don't ever expect them to return. The government keeps telling us that 'things are getting better', but, the next day, the stock market drops again, we get a bad jobs reports, etc. etc. We are merely a shadow of the nation we once were.

[deu58]

I think they are running a gamble. All part of the globalization scheme. I believe the strategy is by the time they finish destroying our and a few other western countries economies they will have built up the economies of other countries to flood those markets with a mass quantity of cheap goods. Profit by quantity rather than quality and the corporations will win and we the people will lose as usual. And if it does not work then there is always the "To Big To Fail" end run and they will start taxing food stamps and welfare checks to bail the fat cats back out.

 

I fully agree with another crash. The hemorrhaging of jobs to sweat shop economies has not even slowed down.

 

And even our shadow is fading fast.

[HeyYou]

I wouldn't be too surprised if you were correct. Granted, I would be severely depressed.... but, the current situation is already depressing enough. What I find most disheartening though is, individually, there are many out there that see the problem clearly, and realize, if we don't do something SOON, we are going to go under. Collectively though....... we got nothin' on a box of rocks. We continue to vote in the same tired fashion, expecting things to change, by putting the same folks back in power..... Are we all collectively insane?

[deu58]

No. Just collectively desperate. Both major political parties have lost sight of reality. As can be seen by current political events the parties are only interested in power and seem to have no problem with destroying the country to get their own parties back in power. One party gets in power and the other spends 4 years blocking everything the party in power tries to implement. Rather than constructive politics we now practice obstructionists politics while the country is in a tail spin due to a lack of true leadership from either side.

[HeyYou]

No. Just collectively desperate. Both major political parties have lost sight of reality. As can be seen by current political events the parties are only interested in power and seem to have no problem with destroying the country to get their own parties back in power. One party gets in power and the other spends 4 years blocking everything the party in power tries to implement. Rather than constructive politics we now practice obstructionists politics while the country is in a tail spin due to a lack of true leadership from either side.

 

I see that you and I are pretty much on the same page. :)

 

Trouble is, I don't see any of it changing until something "really bad" happens.