Let's talk about encumbrance

[theoneandonlyboiler]

Hi there

 

Encumbrance is one thing that has bothered me in almost every game that has an inventory system, and Fallout 4 makes no exception. Actually, because of some of the new features in FO4 (settlement building mainly) it may even have become the worst offender in that regard. The problem is that I find I can immerse myself better the more realistic a game is. I know 100% realism can’t be achieved and there will always be compromises to keep a game fun and not make it frustrating or tedious just for the sake of realism. But there are things that really break immersion for me like fast travel (which I never use), any kind of loading screen (the fewer a game has the better) and inventory systems like the ones Bethesda uses since Morrowind.

 

My main Problems here are two things. First, the weight limit starts out so high that no matter how weak your character is, you will always be able to haul around a huge arsenal of weapons, wear a full set of heavy armor and carry a ton of aid-items on top of that. This is just not realistic at all and makes the game easier than it should be since you always have the right weapon with you, are well armored and can spam-heal yourself no problem with your almost infinite stimpacks. And second, the weight limit that the game imposes on you makes no sense whatsoever, neither for balance nor gameplay nor difficulty reasons. Because it starts out high enough so you don’t have a limitation in terms of gear and aid, the only thing it limits is the amount of junk you can carry, which doesn’t have an impact on anything except maybe how fast you can make some money. But if you’re willing to use fast travel that becomes a joke too. I mean we’ve certainly all done it. Just drop all your loot in a container near the fast travel point and once you’ve cleared out the area just fast travel back and forth until you have sold or stored everything. Rinse and repeat at next location. Or if you’re like me and don’t use fast travel you waste hours watching your overencumbered character slowly walking back to your base, carrying literally tons of junk.

 

So, a weight limit that only impacts the amount of junk you can carry doesn’t affect difficulty in a meaningful way, it only makes the game more or less tedious. This becomes especially apparent in Fallout 4 where now every goddamned item is useful. I mean before you could just take the most valuable stuff up to your weight limit and then leave the rest. Now however you have to take all that s*** with you because you actually need it. So the weight limit which for me before was something I largely ignored suddenly became the single most important stat of the player character. I made a character with 3 STR for FO4 and now find myself constantly drugging her and hunting for radstags (for the carry-bonus of grilled radstag) just so she can carry more. I find this especially frustrating because I wanted to roleplay her as someone who doesn’t take drugs. So, yeah, if you want to build settlements you have to play a max STR character and constantly keep it drugged? Is that it Bethesda? The only things the player characters strength should impact are melee/unarmed damage and how much gear (not junk) one can haul around. In the previous games the weight limit may have made no sense, but now it is completely broken. And no, I will not max out the strength of my character by spending levels on strength. Because that this is even a possibility is an abomination of RPG mechanics. I have done it once (increasing STR from 3 to 4) because I got fed up by the problems the inventory system of FO4 causes and I still feel guilty about it. It’s just something that cannot be. You select your stats at the start and then live with them! But that is another discussion…

 

So here is what I have come up with to solve this. First, the carry weight of the player character needs to be adjusted to something realistic. As someone who has been in the army I know how it is to walk around and fight (thankfully only simulated) all day with a full pack on my back and an assault rifle in my hands. So I would suggest (assuming the weight is in lbs) to start with a base of 60lbs and then add 6lbs for every point in strength which would max out at 120lbs with 10 STR. That off course is still somewhat over the top, but it is not unheard of for soldiers to carry that much on certain assignments. Now this would actually make weight limit an important consideration on character creation as it severely limits the amount of weapons you can have on your character as well as the type of armor you can wear. And it would also limit the amount of aid-items as there certainly would not be much weight left to carry a lot of those except if you make a high STR character that only uses small guns and light armor. But that’s exactly what I’m talking about. Such things have to be a consideration during character creation. What do I want to do, what do I need to carry, how much strength do I need for that? Right now it only goes two ways: do I want do use unarmed and melee or not. If yes high STR is useful, if no I might as well go with 1 STR as it just doesn’t matter. Only other considerations would be the armorer perk which needs 3 STR and is useful for any type of character and of course the carry weight, but that will be too low in any case…

 

Now if you’re looking at those 120lbs max carry weight and think that this is too low to play a big guns heavy armor character you’re of course right. However there are perks and armor mods (which would also need to be adjusted) to help with that as well as the possibility to use power armor. Again, I feel this is how it should be. Right now you don’t have to think or plan or make hard choices to play such a character, which I feel is just wrong. For me, RPG’s should always be about thinking, planning and making hard choices when it comes to your character. If you can play whatever the hell you want without tradeoffs and even switch mid game if you feel like it (as it is now in FO4) it becomes boring.

 

I also feel that stimpacks should weigh something. Right now I’m playing extremely careless because I know I can always spam heal my character should she get injured. And I don’t even care about effective armor or perks and aid items that improve damage resistance or HP. And the doctor’s all over the wasteland are completely useless because I have always enough stimpacks or rad away in my inventory. So having the stimpacks weigh something would force the player to be more careful with their characters health and those perks and aid items would suddenly become much more interesting.

 

And then there is the ammo. I’m really not sure what I should do with it. I would really love to have it weigh something. However I’m afraid that it could take the whole idea too far and make the game frustrating or force the player too much to play in a certain way (avoiding combat to conserve ammo). You see, players who like me don’t use fast travel will need much more ammo than players who use fast travel. It is not uncommon for me to use up hundreds of rounds on a single mission. Now if those would have realistic weight we would be talking about several pounds of additional weight. Now back to my 60lbs and 6lbs per STR. This would mean the minimum would be 66lbs for a 1 STR character. And let’s say you would equip it with light leather armor and a helmet, a combat rifle and a 10mm as backup (all with the heaviest mods possible) we would already be talking 68.7lbs. Now considering I calculated with all the heaviest mods it would probably end up somewhere below that depending on each players mod preferences, but still. Considering aid items this would either leave no room for ammo or you would have to sacrifice either some protection or the second gun. The Problem only gets worse when we start talking about big guns. Now of course for that you would make a much stronger character. But considering how much rockets, mini nukes and cannonballs should realistically weigh… I’m sure you see the problem here. So right now I’d say this needs to be one of these compromises that have to be made to keep the game fun and not make it frustrating. But I’m of course open for suggestions. As far as grenades and mines go, I’d say they should definitely weigh something. However I’m torn between leaving them as is (which is to light) or making them heavier.

 

To solve the problem with all the junk you need for crafting and building, why not simply make it weightless? Seriously, how much of that stuff you can carry doesn’t’ affect difficulty at all. And there is no way that I can see to solve this in an even halfway realistic manner (unless we could change the gameplay mechanics). And not having to care about it would make the game flow much more naturally and safe a shitload of time for actually playing instead of tediously sorting through your inventory or traveling back and forth to get all that s*** to your base. In terms of realism it’s exactly the same as before. Before you could already carry amounts of junk that were nowhere near realistic, so why not go all the way and let the player carry as much as he wants to?

 

Now of course all this would make it almost impossible to loot guns and armor off corpses, except if you leave room on your character for that. But even then what you could loot would be extremely limited. But I think unlimited junk carrying would be a decent enough compensation for this. The only problem I see here is with the legendary items. But considering they are mostly useless anyway I believe it should be manageable. Just have some grilled radstag or a drug that enhances STR with you in case you actually find one that is worth taking back to your base.

 

Last point regarding this are the companions. I believe I should be lowering their carry weight as well, because if they could carry several weapons it would somewhat defeat the purpose of limiting the carry weight of the player character. However I don’t see a problem with them carrying one or maybe even two extra guns for the player, with some characters being able to haul larger weapons than others.

 

So overall I think those changes would add much more realisms in terms of how much equipment and aid items you could have with you, doesn’t change the realism in terms of how much ammo and junk you can carry and give a much more challenging, fluid and satisfying gameplay experience.

 

So, once the GECK comes out this is what I will do. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Edited February 5, 2016 by theoneandonlyboiler

[Boombro]

Games hardly aimed at realism, but balance. If this was Arma, I would agree, but that hardly the cause. I see what you coming from, but pointing at a game fault, say it not realistic instead of not balanced is not the way for it.

 

Plus you talk about realism, and that hardly a fallout thing. You fix broken limbs with a drug in less than 10 minutes, can carry more because of meat, people became zombies because of rads, and all sort of crazy stuff. Have you noticed the roaches? They should not have changed, they are immune to radiation, same for a lot stuff.

 

And you don't have to pick up everything you see. Have you ever thought about picking up only caps, pre-war cash, ammo and supplies? Building and modding is hardly a problem, just buy shipments. I have been doing that all the time, and never faced as much trouble as everyone when they complain about junk.

 

Don't get me wrong, if you wanted a real life game, go for it. But as base game flaw, I hardly disagree. And going for realism for a fun gameplay is hardly enjoyable.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Boombro

[AeonsLegend]

The amount of text in this topic is encumbering.

[theoneandonlyboiler]

@ Boombro

 

Well, balancing is all I'm talking about. It just happens to be the same thing as adding realism in this case. Look, right now I'm running around with 7 weapons, full armor and a wide variety of aid items in quantiities far beyond what I will ever need during a single quest. And this is only using half my carry weight! I never have to plan ahead, never have to think about which weapon I will need and I never have to have a strategy because I'm always prepared for anything. You call this balanced? Well I certainly don't! This casual approach takes a lot of fun out of the game. FO4 could be such a fantastic survival RPG, it could force the player to plan ahead, to prepare for each quest, to have a strategy, to manage scarce ressources, to make hard choices during character creation and on level up. But no, Bethesda decided to make it a casual shoot-fest with just a hint of RPG elements for flavor and no challenge whatsoever. And this really pisses me off! But fortunately I know my way around the GECK, so I will fix what I can to bring at least some of the survival feeling and challenge into the game that should have bee there from the beginning. Fixing the inventory will just be part of it. I will also rebalance the whole perk chart, greatly reducing the bonuses per perk and adding a whole bunch of new ones so the player is forced to specialise more.

 

And I find it interesting that you talk about other aspects of the game not beeing realistic and then throw in the limb healing. Because that is another thing that desperatley needs fixing. In FO3 at least you had to treat the limb directly, now you just use a stimpack normally to fix everything. Another example of Bethesda making stuff more and more casual. However fixing this goes beyond my capabilities, but I'm sure other, more skilled modders will do it. And I'm also looking forward to mods that require you to eat and drink and sleep as well. Because that is how it should be. Right now all that s*** is just optional and gives you some negligible bonus, while it should be required for survival. Yes I know there are players who don't want to have to deal with suff like that, but then just make an option in the game menu to turn it on or off for christ's sake! New Vegas did it, so why on earth not FO4? It is completely beyond me why Bethesda decided to not include such a crucial feature. But we digress...

 

As for the scenario not beeing realistic. What's got that to do with anything? I'm talking about making the gameplay more realstic and thus more challenging and satifying. The scenario of the game not beeing realistic doesn't cancel out realistic gameplay mechanics. Where did you get that idea? And yes I agree that you can go to far with that idea because you would reach a point where the game stops beeing fun and becomes frustrating and tedious. I'm well aware of that and even mentioned it in my initial post. But some realism can actually make a game more fun as it improves immersion and makes things more challenging. FO4 in its current state is completely casual and offers no challenge whatsoever. This needs to be fixed. And I believe throwing some realism in might just do the trick.

 

And yes, I do consider the broken inventory system, the absence of survival mechanics and other missing realism flaws. Why? Because the game would be better with those features fixed/added and their state/absence frustrates the hell out of me. Now don't get me wrong, I love the hell out FO4 and have already put over 250 hours into it. But that makes those flaws hurt even more and I'm really looking forward to start a new character once all that stuff is fixed/added either by myself or other modders.

 

And for the "just buy shipments" comment. There are two things I'd like to say to that: First, that's just ignoring the problem by using a different option. Now I don't say you shouldn't do that. If buying shipments works for you that's perfectly ok. But scavenging junk for your building needs has to be viable as well as it was clearly intended by the developers. But right now, because of how the inventory and encumbrance work, it sadly isn't. And second, to get the ammount of materials I need for building I would be constatantly running around the commonwealth just to buy these shipments. And considering how much these cost I can't even begin to imagine the amount of caps and pre-war money I would have to find to buy them. So for my playstyle, it really isn't a viable option.

[Boombro]

 

Well, balancing is all I'm talking about. It just happens to be the same thing as adding realism in this case. Look, right now I'm running around with 7 weapons, full armor and a wide variety of aid items in quantiities far beyond what I will ever need during a single quest. And this is only using half my carry weight! I never have to plan ahead, never have to think about which weapon I will need and I never have to have a strategy because I'm always prepared for anything. You call this balanced? Well I certainly don't

Then balance yourself out since there is no mod! PS and xbox player in Skyrim days and now would limit gear, ammo and even have food ready and make sure to drink and sleep. The very same casuals you mock.

 

 

 

And I find it interesting that you talk about other aspects of the game not beeing realistic and then throw in the limb healing. Because that is another thing that desperatley needs fixing. In FO3 at least you had to treat the limb directly, now you just use a stimpack normally to fix everything. Another example of Bethesda making stuff more and more casual. However fixing this goes beyond my capabilities, but I'm sure other, more skilled modders will do it. And I'm also looking forward to mods that require you to eat and drink and sleep as well. Because that is how it should be. Right now all that s*** is just optional and gives you some negligible bonus, while it should be required for survival. Yes I know there are players who don't want to have to deal with suff like that, but then just make an option in the game menu to turn it on or off for christ's sake! New Vegas did it, so why on earth not FO4? It is completely beyond me why Bethesda decided to not include such a crucial feature. But we digress...

Good point, but beth never made or promised and survival aspect of the fallout 4. Plus you can still eat, drink and sleep. Those mods are just dump reminders that need patches.

 

As for the scenario not beeing realistic. What's got that to do with anything? I'm talking about making the gameplay more realstic and thus more challenging and satifying. The scenario of the game not beeing realistic doesn't cancel out realistic gameplay mechanics. Where did you get that idea? And yes I agree that you can go to far with that idea because you would reach a point where the game stops beeing fun and becomes frustrating and tedious. I'm well aware of that and even mentioned it in my initial post. But some realism can actually make a game more fun as it improves immersion and makes thing

s more challenging.

I never saw a game or a mod that appiles realism right overall in the game. I prefer the old RPG aspect where a whole gun meg, mana bar, pack of potions and buff items was needed to kill a high level mob.

Ohh, those were the days.

 

 

And yes, I do consider the broken inventory system, the absence of survival mechanics and other missing realism flaws. Why? Because the game would be better with those features fixed/added and their state/absence frustrates the hell out of me

That is in your owns eyes. Many want and cheated to get limitless carry to have more fun. so making the game realistic and/or harder doesn't mean= fun at least not for everyone.

 

 

 

And for the "just buy shipments" comment. There are two things I'd like to say to that: First, that's just ignoring the problem by using a different option. Now I don't say you shouldn't do that. If buying shipments works for you that's perfectly ok. But scavenging junk for your building needs has to be viable as well as it was clearly intended by the developers.

Then you fill your bag with junk, then say you should be need to go back and forth, back and forth. You are forcing yourself into a loop you put yourself into.

I don't want to carry junk, and I have a lot of cash. Two birds with one stone.

 

 

And second, to get the ammount of materials I need for building I would be constatantly running around the commonwealth just to buy these shipments.

Hoarding junk is the same. you go back and forth back and forth.

good luck hauling all that junk when you get a or move base.

 

And considering how much these cost I can't even begin to imagine the amount of caps and pre-war money I would have to find to buy them. So for my playstyle, it really isn't a viable option.

Oh please you can get all the cash so easily, it a beth game and it not like you are building an empire in one day from level one.

[theoneandonlyboiler]

Ok, just to make sure I'm not misunderstood. Of course everything I wrote and will write in this thread is my opinion. I'm not saying everyone should see things the same way I do and I'm perfectly aware that there are a lot of players who are happy with the game as is.

 

But I'm not, which is why I'm planning on making a mod that will improve the experience for me. Now if anyone thinks what I'm proposing will not improve the game for him/her that's fine. If I'm making this mod I will make it for me first and foremost. I just thought I start a thread here for people who might be interested to see these or similar changes made to FO4 and maybe get a discussion going on how exactly this could be implemented and balanced to get the best experience possible out of it.

 

 

Then balance yourself out since there is no mod! PS and xbox player in Skyrim days and now would limit gear, ammo and even have food ready and make sure to drink and sleep. The very same casuals you mock.

 

First, I'm not mocking anyone or anything. Sorry if what I wrote came across that way. It certainly wasn't intended.

 

And imposing limits on my character myself, make sure I eat, drink and sleep if it is not required is not the same as if the game would impose the limits and force me to do those things. I'm already forcing myself to let my character sleep every night. But there were situations where that wasn't possible so I had to skip or postbone it. The problem was of course that my character didn't suffer penalties for this beacause it wasn't actually required.

 

That's why I want these things as a game mechanic, so that if I ignore it for whatever reason my character suffers some penalty for it.

 

 

Good point, but beth never made or promised and survival aspect of the fallout 4. Plus you can still eat, drink and sleep. Those mods are just dump reminders that need patches.

 

Of course they never promised that. But just because they didn't doesn't mean they shouldn't have. Look, I'm perfectly aware that this is not an oversight but a conscious decision by Bethesda. All I'm saying is that I believe the game would be much better with some survival aspects thrown in. Hell, the scnario begs for it!

 

And no, those mods I'm talking about are not just dumb reminders. They add penalties for not eating, drinking and sleeping up to the point where your character will simply die if you keep ignoring it. So they make the game more challenging and add a whole new aspect of gameplay that simply isn't there if you're just doing all these things on a voluntary basis.

 

 

I never saw a game or a mod that appiles realism right overall in the game. I prefer the old RPG aspect where a whole gun meg, mana bar, pack of potions and buff items was needed to kill a high level mob.

Ohh, those were the days.

 

Yes, realism in any game is a tricky beast. And as I said, complete realism is probably impossible. All I want is enough realism to make the game more challenging and enjoyable.

 

 

That is in your owns eyes. Many want and cheated to get limitless carry to have more fun. so making the game realistic and/or harder doesn't mean= fun at least not for everyone.

 

I'm aware that not all players want that, which is why I wrote in my last post that Bethesda could have made that optional like it was in New Vegas. They pride themselves with making games that allow for a multitude of play styles yet completely ignore the players who would like more challenge and realism. And these players clearly exist as one can easily see by looking at all the mods for Bethesda games that address those aspects.

 

 

Then you fill your bag with junk, then say you should be need to go back and forth, back and forth. You are forcing yourself into a loop you put yourself into.

I don't want to carry junk, and I have a lot of cash. Two birds with one stone.

 

Ok, now I'm wondering if you even read my post or if you just quickly run over it. Since I'm proposing to make all junk weightless there would be no going back and forth. I could carry as much of the stuff as I want to.

 

The only things that would weigh something would be weapons, armor, explosives, food, beverages and chems.

 

 

Hoarding junk is the same. you go back and forth back and forth.

 

good luck hauling all that junk when you get a or move base.

 

That is a problem I have right now, which is why I'm proposing to make that stuff weightless. Again, this should have been clear from my initial post.

 

 

Oh please you can get all the cash so easily, it a beth game and it not like you are building an empire in one day from level one.

 

Then please enlighten me how. I get most my cash from selling stuff, not from actually finding any. And believe me, I look in every container and in every corner. Now of course I use tons of money on ammo since my wandering arouond the wasteland instead of using fast travel gets me into quite a few fights I wouldn't get into otherwise.

[Boombro]

 

 

First, I'm not mocking anyone or anything. Sorry if what I wrote came across that way. It certainly wasn't intended.

And imposing limits on my character myself, make sure I eat, drink and sleep if it is not required is not the same as if the game would impose the limits and force me to do those things. I'm already forcing myself to let my character sleep every night. But there were situations where that wasn't possible so I had to skip or postbone it. The problem was of course that my character didn't suffer penalties for this beacause it wasn't actually required.

That's why I want these things as a game mechanic, so that if I ignore it for whatever reason my character suffers some penalty for it.

Oh sorry, it just PC gamers are like.

Easy = causal = for console players. Have to admit that was really shitty from me, sorry man.

 

 

 

Of course they never promised that. But just because they didn't doesn't mean they shouldn't have. Look, I'm perfectly aware that this is not an oversight but a conscious decision by Bethesda. All I'm saying is that I believe the game would be much better with some survival aspects thrown in. Hell, the scnario begs for it!

And no, those mods I'm talking about are not just dumb reminders. They add penalties for not eating, drinking and sleeping up to the point where your character will simply die if you keep ignoring it. So they make the game more challenging and add a whole new aspect of gameplay that simply isn't there if you're just doing all these things on a voluntary basis.

You man wanna look up DUST for FNV then.

 

 

I'm aware that not all players want that, which is why I wrote in my last post that Bethesda could have made that optional like it was in New Vegas. They pride themselves with making games that allow for a multitude of play styles yet completely ignore the players who would like more challenge and realism. And these players clearly exist as one can easily see by looking at all the mods for Bethesda games that address those aspects.

Because most games are not made for realism and survival. Even if the setting hinted at it.

 

 

 

Ok, now I'm wondering if you even read my post or if you just quickly run over it. Since I'm proposing to make all junk weightless there would be no going back and forth. I could carry as much of the stuff as I want to.

The only things that would weigh something would be weapons, armor, explosives, food, beverages and chems.

And junk, and some mics items.

 

 

 

That is a problem I have right now, which is why I'm proposing to make that stuff weightless. Again, this should have been clear from my initial post.

Wait, how do you want to aim at realism and then make them weightless?

 

 

 

Then please enlighten me how. I get most my cash from selling stuff, not from actually finding any. And believe me, I look in every container and in every corner. Now of course I use tons of money on ammo since my wandering arouond the wasteland instead of using fast travel gets me into quite a few fights I wouldn't get into otherwise.

After level 20, you get a lot of caps and cash. If you looted everything and make sure to take the best from VAL/WT ratio.

It harder if you have a mini gun however.

 

Plus, don't try building a town or a big house from the start. Try making a shack, then expand.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Boombro

[x2ash]

the 1st thing i do when i start a new game is drop my carryweight to 50 and drop my health to about 50 too.

 

all a character with no bag should be able to carry is a pistol, rifle sword, some chems and a pocket full of lighters, etc..

 

but i liked the stalker system where you had slots on your bag and had to fill it appropriately to get things to fit in there.

If they made a mod to make the inventory system like that id be a happy gamer

[theoneandonlyboiler]

 

but i liked the stalker system where you had slots on your bag and had to fill it appropriately to get things to fit in there.

If they made a mod to make the inventory system like that id be a happy gamer

 

The best inventory system I ever came across was Chrome. Here is a screenshot of it: https://aeronextedit.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/chrome_06_normal.jpg

 

It almost drove me nuts sometimes, but that's what a good inventory system should do. Make you cry tears of desperation because you can't fit everything in it that you'd like :wink:

Edited February 9, 2016 by theoneandonlyboiler

[Boombro]

I like dark souls system myself.