"Solving" the 4-options dialogue system

[anbeegod]

As you all know, a 4-options dialogue system wouldn't really work well with 80% of the future story/functional mod. If you haven't figured them out already, here are some possible ways to overcome this technical constraint - if the F4 modding kit is indeed limited by that pitiful 4-options system, irredeemable by mods and plugins.

 

I don't know very much about technical stuff, maybe you'd have better ways than mine. Welcome to share.

 

If you don't think the 4-options system is a problem, you're welcomed to leave. This thread isn't going to be of much use to you anyways.

 

 

 

Method 1: the brutal method

 

Player dialogue options:

1. Options a-c and option "return to the last branch"

2. Options d-f and option "return to the last branch"

3. Empty

4. Empty

 

Press 1 (←), both the player and NPC don't talk, and options "a", "b", "c" and "return" appear after the screen shift (the process which the screen shifts between the player and NPC's faces).

Press 2 (→), both the player and NPC don't talk, and options "d", "e", "f" and "return" appear after the screen shift.

 

Options a-f are the real options for the player to choose, and the return option exists just so the player can browse the options in the other side(s).

 

If there are too much options (creative modders come up with dozens of possibilities), this method can be reused in the same conversation for as many times as they need.

 

Screen shift (I don't know an accurate term to describe it) is very likely a solvable problem in the future.

 

 

 

Method 2: the immersive way (categorization)

 

Player dialogue options:

1. Mock him

2. Help him

3. Ignore him

4. Empty

 

Press 1 (↑), show dialogue options

1. Hahaha you jerk deserve it all.

2. You're an old pitiful fool.

3. Wow, watching you suffer has made my day.

4. You're crying like a baby. That looks silly.

 

Press 2 (→), show dialogue options

1. I'll help you.

2. Look, you can actually do it this way, let me show you...

3. This is easy for me. Sure.

4. Haven't got anything else to do anyways. Sure, I'll help.

 

Press 3 (←), show dialogue options

1. I've got other things to do.

2. Get outta my way.

3. You waste my time.

4. I'm sorry, but I'm busy.

 

The options are just examples of what this method can do.

 

As you can see, this method categorizes certain dialogue options into one. Just as method 1, this method can be reused in the same conversation, like

 

1. Positive

2. Negative

 

Choosing 1, show options (still in category)

a. Express gratitude

b. Boast him

 

Choosing a, show options

i. Thanks.

ii. That helps, you're a genius.

 

Et cetera.

 

 

 

Mixed use of methods 1 and 2 is possible.

 

 

 

 

There are, however, a critical difficulty yet to be overcome. If multiple mods have added new dialogue options to characters' conversations, these 2 methods aren't gonna help much. To tackle this problem, a framework-resource-type mod can be made, adding numerous empty dialogue options to the dialogue trees, and categorize top-level vanilla dialogue options under one "vanilla options" category. Here's an example.

 

1. Vanilla options

2. Empty

3. Empty

4. Empty

 

Choosing 1 (↑), vanilla dialogues show up.

Choosing 2, 3, 4, four empty options show up.

Choosing these empty options, another 4 set of empty options show up, etc.

 

This works as a framework and resource for modders, and the empty options work as slots. If one modder chooses one slot and another chooses the same, a compatibility patch can be made by simply moving one of the two options to another slot. To specify the use, it can work like this, though in an much-less immersive way.

 

1. Vanilla options

2. Animation

3. Immersion

4. Special (uncategorized)

 

Choosing 2,

a. Dance

b. Sex

c. Specific (uncategorized)

d. empty

And a, b, c lead to empty slots, empty slots lead to another empty slots again etc.

 

Choosing 3,

a. Needs

b. Emotions

(Don't play immersion mods much, don't have a clear idea of that)

 

 

 

 

These are my suggestions in solving this problem.

 

Please let me know if someone has already found a solution to this, I haven't been paying much attention to the modding community lately.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

While it doesn't solve your initial problem, some may find a branching system of dialogue options more interesting as long as it is logical and isn't convoluted.

 

For example, if you want the player to have five possible interactions, requiring them to lead into the 5th option with one of the original fourth options of similar type would make sense. If the options are to

 

A.Question B.Mock C.Joke D.Thank

 

but you also want the option to D.Intimidate, then first choosing to B.Mock and then D.Intimidate would make sense.

 

Unfortunately there are plenty of games, I'm thinking of many visual novels, which offer an illogical branch of dialogue to get a desired result. For example they may have you need to begin with a joke and then intimidate although that is counter intuitive to your goals.

[anbeegod]

While it doesn't solve your initial problem, some may find a branching system of dialogue options more interesting as long as it is logical and isn't convoluted.

 

For example, if you want the player to have five possible interactions, requiring them to lead into the 5th option with one of the original fourth options of similar type would make sense. If the options are to

 

A.Question B.Mock C.Joke D.Thank

 

but you also want the option to D.Intimidate, then first choosing to B.Mock and then D.Intimidate would make sense.

 

Unfortunately there are plenty of games, I'm thinking of many visual novels, which offer an illogical branch of dialogue to get a desired result. For example they may have you need to begin with a joke and then intimidate although that is counter intuitive to your goals.

 

 

I doubt that would work nicely with non-story mods though, as such mods often contain fundamental dialogue options that wouldn't fit the context with other lines. Having multiple mods installed would make this method impossible.

[TeamBacon]

I don't see this as an issue at all for the way I write. I never liked having 10 dialogue options all at once, I found it rather cumbersome.

 

I try to have my dialogue branch in a more organic way and rarely need more than 3 choices at any one given time. Choices build on other choices the way conversations in the real world work and it isn't so morally black and white.

 

I am totally excited about working with the new dialogue system.

[JuJooGuppy]

I am / was really hopeful that future mod work will allow more than 4 options per choice, myself. But otherwise I will have to use a system similiar to your 2nd one I think, kind of a blend and trying to make it natural like Fatalmasterpiece suggested.

[TeamBacon]

http://i68.tinypic.com/34rf8qv.gif

 

Which of those looks more organic and natural to you? Do you want 10 choices all coming out of one point that the player has to keep returning to in order to progress with the story? Or do you want to have 15 choices that progress in a way that fits the role playing style of your character and allows you to progress in the way you choose?

 

It only takes 2 or 3 options to progress through a natural human style conversation.

 

The idea is to build answers off of previous answers, then you can control the tempo, mood, and pacing of a conversation. You can't build tension with having all 10 choices at once.

[JuJooGuppy]

I understood completely where you were going with it, but I also think its possible to have the 5-10 branches going into more branches as well, it just becomes quite complicated is all. I don't disagree with you though, in general. I just see situations where I would rather have more than 4 initial choices leading into more, if that makes sense. But working with the 4 into more is more than doable and as you stated can flow very well with practice.

[anbeegod]

I don't see this as an issue at all for the way I write. I never liked having 10 dialogue options all at once, I found it rather cumbersome.

 

I try to have my dialogue branch in a more organic way and rarely need more than 3 choices at any one given time. Choices build on other choices the way conversations in the real world work and it isn't so morally black and white.

 

I am totally excited about working with the new dialogue system.

 

 

It's a matter of freedom and roleplaying possibilities. If the number of dialogue options is limited to 4, I doubt one can even roleplay what he/she wish to. F4 shows the worst example of such a flawed system, that the player are given not just limited choices, but also highly defected ones that most are insignificant and usually lead to the same outcome. This, I can't agree with you to a large extent.

[PoliteRaider]

I don't really have a meaningful comment to make about the original idea, beyond the fact that it looks like a workable option. I just wanted to offer an additional method you could use here.

 

Fallout 4 only hard-codes that it presents 4 options to the player but there are frequently more than 4 possible options held within the game file. It's possible to set conditions on these so that the dialogue options change, (look at the Silver Shroud alternate dialogue options for example, although this is far from the only one).

 

Don't forget that you can set things up so that the dialogue changes based on an earlier decision. You could even use some sort of calibration option to set the characters 'personality' and have it change which options are available. Doing this will limit the number of clicks the player needs to make to navigate your dialogue option system which is almost always better. Menu interactions tend to pull the player out of the game a little, so it's more immersive to avoid the need as much as possible.

 

Also just to let you know it is technically possible to use more than 4 lines of dialogue, but it would be a -huge- pain to implement. Rather than the inbuilt system, you'd have to implement some scripting and interface modification to control the dialogue directly and it's unlikely to ever work on a console version of the mod (depending on how Bethesda implements Console Modding). Still, it is theoretically possible.

[anbeegod]

I don't really have a meaningful comment to make about the original idea, beyond the fact that it looks like a workable option. I just wanted to offer an additional method you could use here.

 

Fallout 4 only hard-codes that it presents 4 options to the player but there are frequently more than 4 possible options held within the game file. It's possible to set conditions on these so that the dialogue options change, (look at the Silver Shroud alternate dialogue options for example, although this is far from the only one).

 

Don't forget that you can set things up so that the dialogue changes based on an earlier decision. You could even use some sort of calibration option to set the characters 'personality' and have it change which options are available. Doing this will limit the number of clicks the player needs to make to navigate your dialogue option system which is almost always better. Menu interactions tend to pull the player out of the game a little, so it's more immersive to avoid the need as much as possible.

 

Also just to let you know it is technically possible to use more than 4 lines of dialogue, but it would be a -huge- pain to implement. Rather than the inbuilt system, you'd have to implement some scripting and interface modification to control the dialogue directly and it's unlikely to ever work on a console version of the mod (depending on how Bethesda implements Console Modding). Still, it is theoretically possible.

 

 

Setting condition is a good idea, but the root problem (exact number limitation) is still there. Conditions can be used to sort out the unnecessary options and limit them to a more acceptable amount, on occasions they can even help to introduce new dialogue options. However, with the 4-options limitation still existing, controlling the option number would prove even more difficult.

 

Honestly, I think it's a shame that PC players have to compromise and satisfy on a defected system for the needs of console players.