Don't like freedom?

[Kendo 2]

@grannywils

I see Conseratives painted with a broad brush on a daily basis on this forum yet concerned posts from you addressing that are nonexistent.

@Keanumoreira

meh...I get it all the time. :P

 

The Jewish youth do not have a religion until they decide what they want to beleive, if their parents force them into it it is not their religion, it is their parents.

 

Oh REALLY? Once again you're speaking on something you have ZERO knowledge of. Being circumcised in the context of the Jewish faith is a mark of the Covenant between God and the descendants of Abraham.

 

From the Book of Genisis: "Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old...This shall be my covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant. The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken my Covenant"

 

And from Leviticus: "God spoke to Moses, telling him to speak to the Israelites: When a woman conceives and gives birth to a boy ... on the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised."

 

NOW, can you see how forcing a Jewish boy to wait until he is 18 to be circumcised alienates him from his own religion? I DO NOT endorse one religion over another and they are all equal in my eyes. It doesn't matter what I believe or you believe. What matters (or should) is what they believe.

[Keanumoreira]

The Jewish youth do not have a religion until they decide what they want to beleive, if their parents force them into it it is not their religion, it is their parents.

 

Oh REALLY? Once again you're speaking on something you have ZERO knowledge of. Being circumcised in the context of the Jewish faith is a mark of the Covenant between God and the descendants of Abraham.

 

From the Book of Genisis: "Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old...This shall be my covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant. The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken my Covenant"

 

And from Leviticus: "God spoke to Moses, telling him to speak to the Israelites: When a woman conceives and gives birth to a boy ... on the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised."

 

NOW, can you see how forcing a Jewish boy to wait until he is 18 to be circumcised alienates him from his own religion? I DO NOT endorse one religion over another and they are all equal in my eyes. It doesn't matter what I believe or you believe. What matters (or should) is what they believe.

 

Ummm....I don't mean to interrupt this dispute....but I believe we are treking into the no go zone here....

[Kendo 2]

Ummm....I don't mean to interrupt this dispute....but I believe we are treking into the no go zone here....

 

Ahah, but this isn't about religion/fairytales/myths/folklore. It is about freedom.

 

It would be one thing if Shoefield and Hess and the other intactivists wanted to ban circumcision except for religious reasons. That isn't the case though. Their agenda is obvious.

[RZ1029]

It doesn't have to do with being anti-Semitic, it has to do with not letting parents cut off body parts.

Dude... they're not taking the whole thing off. And there is actually some medical validity behind the same actions. Say the parents want to have them circumcised for non-religious reasons, is it still not OK?

 

The constitution protects religious practice to a certain extend. You can't claim you are part of a religion that allows human sacrifice, then go around kidnapping people and killing them for your religion can you?

Nobody is being killed, it's like... two snips of some surgical scissors and the kid's no worse off for it. It's a religious practice they've held for... well, by their books, nearly forever. I've never heard of someone being discriminated against based on the lack of a foreskin, nor anyone being killed for it either (within recent history).

 

The Jewish youth do not have a religion until they decide what they want to beleive, if their parents force them into it it is not their religion, it is their parents.

Okay... cool. So we'll let them deal with their opinions and beliefs when they're high-strung emotional teenagers. Until then, their parents can take care of them as best they see fit unless their actions directly endanger their child. Since circumcision has been practiced for thousands of years... yeah... I'd call that pretty safe.

[Ghogiel]

 

And effectively disenfranchise Jewish youth from their religion. Like all liberals you're willing to invalidate a religion and religious practice you don't agree with. The thing is, these 'intactivists' are anti-Semetic. They get to have 'their say' while wrapping themselves in the Constitution and wiping their asses with the parts they don't like. TYPICAL and what we have come to expect.

 

And also, since a baby can't make it's own decisions YOU want the government to make decisions, not the parents. Yet again you have proven how flawed your 'reasoning' is.

 

Okay, marharth. The government will decide what your child believes, NOT YOU. YOU have no say in how your child is brought up. Because YOU follow a religion the government doesn't like YOU cannot raise your child in that religion. HOW does that sound to YOU? How does it feel having your organic rights stripped away and your child not being able to follow a tradition YOU love and hold holy?

 

That is what you are suggesting for others so it must be okay for YOU.

The parents are usually the ones who indoctrinate kids into random weird s***...whatever that may be or your definition of that. But hey whatever man, the world was full of weirdos when I got here. I don't even know what a liberal is supposed to be, it sounds excessive, like fundamentalists. :laugh:

 

Though I have nothing against male circumcision. My mother was ashamed she had that done to me, as it was common practice in the states back in the day. It was just kinda normal to do. Later as she questioned that soceieties normals and practises, It wasn't until adulthood in my late 20s that that came up in conversation, and found that choice really bothered her, and I was like nah, it's aight, it's the only D I've known and my junk works good :thumbsup: :biggrin:

 

But for the religion thing, we aren't allowed to discuss it here. But circumcision, meh whatever. I could care less if they Banned it for religious reasons, but go on and do it if you think it looks good, . :teehee:

It's not even an issue in the EU, as it is far less common practice outside the jewish population. No one gets it done out here really. And the numbers drop off with each generation. In the US most men are cut.

 

I do get why it might actually be a popular thing to try to ban. It DOES sound pretty f***ed up to someone who is ignorant to it, most of the US males have had it done anyway so they just know..l at the same time I don't like the thought of parents doing weird s*** to children, religion or no. I doubt it's even a thing to worry about getting passed, it's still quite popular and not just for jews. lol Frisco.

 

In this particular issue circumcision will likely be a fairly non issue to those who had it done as a baby once they get laid. :dance:

 

So. In this issue I vote against banning it. apparently my penis is just fine... just ignore those warts on the end there.. :pinch:

[marharth]

It doesn't have to do with being anti-Semitic, it has to do with not letting parents cut off body parts.

Dude... they're not taking the whole thing off. And there is actually some medical validity behind the same actions. Say the parents want to have them circumcised for non-religious reasons, is it still not OK?

 

The constitution protects religious practice to a certain extend. You can't claim you are part of a religion that allows human sacrifice, then go around kidnapping people and killing them for your religion can you?

Nobody is being killed, it's like... two snips of some surgical scissors and the kid's no worse off for it. It's a religious practice they've held for... well, by their books, nearly forever. I've never heard of someone being discriminated against based on the lack of a foreskin, nor anyone being killed for it either (within recent history).

 

The Jewish youth do not have a religion until they decide what they want to beleive, if their parents force them into it it is not their religion, it is their parents.

Okay... cool. So we'll let them deal with their opinions and beliefs when they're high-strung emotional teenagers. Until then, their parents can take care of them as best they see fit unless their actions directly endanger their child. Since circumcision has been practiced for thousands of years... yeah... I'd call that pretty safe.

Its not about if its safe or not, its about the decision.

 

At a young age, if your circumcised and brought up to beleive a certain thing, you are forced into a religion by your parents.

 

I think that the child should be allowed to grow up and make decisions for themselves.

 

Just because it is a religion does not make it OK to force it on their child, and effectively make them beleive something for life.

 

I know what the religion says, but if it is going to force someone remember their religion for life, it is not OK in my eyes.

 

It is not that its dangerous, its that its impending on the freedom of the child before they can make a decision of their own. Its similar to getting a scar or a tattoo on your arm at birth, its something of a religious symbol that will always remind you were you came from and what your parents want you to beleive.

[csgators]

 

Its not about if its safe or not, its about the decision.

 

At a young age, if your circumcised and brought up to beleive a certain thing, you are forced into a religion by your parents.

 

I think that the child should be allowed to grow up and make decisions for themselves.

 

Just because it is a religion does not make it OK to force it on their child, and effectively make them beleive something for life.

 

I know what the religion says, but if it is going to force someone remember their religion for life, it is not OK in my eyes.

 

It is not that its dangerous, its that its impending on the freedom of the child before they can make a decision of their own. Its similar to getting a scar or a tattoo on your arm at birth, its something of a religious symbol that will always remind you were you came from and what your parents want you to beleive.

 

So kids should be banned from all churches?

[ginnyfizz]

Its completely logical for you to let the child grow up and decide on their own, not have their parents decide.

 

And effectively disenfranchise Jewish youth from their religion. Like all liberals you're willing to invalidate a religion and religious practice you don't agree with. The thing is, these 'intactivists' are anti-Semetic. They get to have 'their say' while wrapping themselves in the Constitution and wiping their asses with the parts they don't like. TYPICAL and what we have come to expect.

 

 

 

Kendo, I do not want to get into it with you, but you are really annoying the crap out of me. I disagree with almost everything you say, but I do not feel the need to define you as some sort of "flaming right wing fruitcake", or whatever the current term is. You go ahead and believe what you will, but please stop using expressions such as, "like all Liberals". I don't believe you would recognize a true Liberal if one walked up and stood nose to nose with you. We all have rights to our beliefs and to the expression of same. But not all of us believe the same thing or the same way. Argue with those with whom you are posting, and leave the rest of us out of it. I will have my say with you very soon, and then you may feel free to say whatever you like about me, as a Liberal; but unitl then do not deign to assume that you have any idea about what I think or believe.

 

Well there are actually quite a few things about the statements from "Those of the left" that are annoying the crap out of me, grannywils. You and other posters in this thread have done the usual by insinuating that anyone who holds conservative views is ill educated and blinkered "I don't believe you would recognize a true Liberal if one walked up and stood nose to nose with you." That is really rather arrogant. We have had other thinly veiled "Conservatives are thickos" implications in here as well, insinuations that we all like to live in the past, yadda yadda. I am well aware that the Left are always (in their own eyes)right (sorry, British sarcasm again), and that they hold a majority on these forums and do not like us to contradict them, I just wish they weren't so condescending about it.

 

Actually people have the FREEDOM to be conservative, and they even have the FREEDOM to be stupid, sometimes both at the same time and sometimes not, which is not exactly a crime the last time I heard.

 

As for you Marharth, if really want to align yourself with these raving anti Semites just because you have decided that circumcision is sadistic and evil and should be stamped out, then be my guest. Yeah csgators, I guess he thinks infant baptism should be banned in case junior gets dropped in the font.

 

And by the way, yes you DO have to be intelligent to pass the bar exams. I have a first class degree. So there.

[Ghogiel]

I had to try really hard to get banned from church. I wish it was auto. It would have saved me some ass whoopings.

[Kendo 2]

So kids should be banned from all churches?

 

Look at his posting history. Not only kids, but EVERYONE. People shouldn't have the right of self determination. The government should be making the decisions, not people.